Why do Arminians...

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't quote 1 Tim.

This is what you quoted:
In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good, so they may encourage the young women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, kind, and submissive to their husbands, so that God’s message will not be slandered.

^^^ Two types, older women and younger women.

In the same way, encourage the young men to be self-controlled in everything. Make yourself an example of good works with integrity and dignity in your teaching. Your message is to be sound beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be ashamed, having nothing bad to say about us.
OK, 2 Tim. Still not clear why you quoted from that epistle. Apparently you don't know why either, or I would be reading your explanation.

And you had to inject your theology to counter what the chapter says.

What proof is there for this claim? My theology IS what the chapter says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see you had to inject your theology into this one, too.

It's not my theology. It's the Bible's theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Given your very limited use of the word "elect", it is a true statement that no believer was "elected" to believe or be saved. Maybe I didn't "get" that because it is a very limited use of the word. It is use in that limited way to support the idea that, as you say, "no one was predestined to believe" -something that I most definitely disagree with.

Obviously, given the very fine use of elect, that word should not be used interchangeably with the word predestined. So let's leave out the term elect and concentrate on predestination.

My "fine" use of the word "elect" is based on the limited use found in Scripture.

God has always known who would believe and who would not believe. If God truly knew in eternity past that some would believe then there was no way that those people were not going to believe. It was predestined from eternity past to occur and not a thing could stop it.

If you use "predestine" as in knowing what will occur and not preventing it, then I'll agree with you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestination is the doctrine that God has foreordained all things which will come to pass yet he is not the author of sin.

From the WCF, chapter 3. Which is contradicted, as I will demonstrate.

King David "foreordained" the death of Uriah the Hittite. He was also the author of the murder. So, the one who foreordains is the one who is the author of what is foreordained. If God foreordains EVERYTHING, that means He IS the author of sin.

 

[OzSpen]

Crucifixion. Planned and predestined.

“For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27, 28 HCSB)

And how is that applied to the salvation of believers?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The crucifixion was foreseen and prophesied, it was NOT foreordained...............................Predestination means to chart a course or to plan a course. God only does that with those that choose His plan of salvation..................................................................There is not scripture in the NT that excludes God's foreknowledge from who He predestined. The former comes before the latter..............

Acts 4:28 "......to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose (plan) predestined to occur."

God's plan is the agent, as it were, or His predestining things to occur. Obviously, from this verse alone, that predestination extends to the actions of sinful men just as He does for "those that choose His plan of salvation."

Of course foreknowledge is unalterably linked to predestination. It is His omniscience that makes something predestined to occur. If He truly knows that it will occur, it cannot not occur. Therefore it is predestined to occur.

The only question remains - who is the one who predestines the occurrence? Since God is the only one existing at the time that the future occurrence is foreseen - He is by default the one doing the predestining. That is unless one gives power to an abstract concept such as fate or chance. The Bible makes no allowance for the concepts of fate or chance.

 

[Hammster]

This is what you quoted:
In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good, so they may encourage the young women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, kind, and submissive to their husbands, so that God’s message will not be slandered.

^^^ Two types, older women and younger women.

In the same way, encourage the young men to be self-controlled in everything. Make yourself an example of good works with integrity and dignity in your teaching. Your message is to be sound beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be ashamed, having nothing bad to say about us.
OK, 2 Tim. Still not clear why you quoted from that epistle. Apparently you don't know why either, or I would be reading your explanation.


What proof is there for this claim? My theology IS what the chapter says.

I didn't quote from 2 Tim, either.

And what you said about grace needing to be received was not in that chapter.

 

[Hammster]

It's not my theology. It's the Bible's theology.

Not close. While you may use the bible, a lot of your theology is unbiblical.

 

[Hammster]

And how is that applied to the salvation of believers?

I'm not sure what your getting at.

 

[Marvin Knox]

............. God is not subject to time so He looks at it in an overall view, NOT a linear one........ ......

While it may not be true that time functions and will function just as it does for us on earth - it is not true that there is no such thing as time with God.

Examples could fill a post. But just as an example God speaks of the time when there was nothing but Himself as "in the beginning" and "before the foundation of the world."

Therefore it is perfectly correct to say that His "prior" omniscience made that thing that He knew would occur in time a "predestined" thing.

Hope that makes sense. A person could get a little rummy following and answering posts. This may not be something I'm able to do in a very busy thread like this one. We'll see! I'm doing my best.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If you use "predestine" as in knowing what will occur and not preventing it, then I'll agree with you.

God's activity and interaction with His creation is one of proactive participation according to scripture. He isn't standing idly by and watching things happen and simply choosing not to prevent it. He is said to be the one who "does" those things which occur.

 

[sdowney717]

God's activity and interaction with His creation is one of proactive participation according to scripture. He isn't standing idly by and watching things happen and simply choosing not to prevent it. He is said to be the one who "does" those things which occur.

Amen yes, we are talking of the unsearchableness of His judgments.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[OzSpen]

Not close. While you may use the bible, a lot of your theology is unbiblical.

That kind of one-liner is not helpful. If his theology is 'unbiblical' (to use your language), it should be your responsibility on CF to show him where that is so by some detailed explanations.

If he is in error, please demonstrate it to him with some expositions that are more than one-liners.

 

[Hammster]

That kind of one-liner is not helpful. If his theology is 'unbiblical' (to use your language), it should be your responsibility on CF to show him where that is so by some detailed explanations.

If he is in error, please demonstrate it to him with some expositions that are more than one-liners.

I do.

 

[OzSpen]

I do.

You did not in the one-liner to which I replied.

 

[stan1953]

Not close. While you may use the bible, a lot of your theology is unbiblical.

and that is your opinion, NOT fact, so maybe you can tone down the rhetoric a tad?

 

[stan1953]

Crucifixion. Planned and predestined.
“For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27, 28 HCSB)

and yet Acts 2:23 states;
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

God's plans are always based on His foreknowledge, Just as Paul teaches in Romans 8:28-30, and 11:2, and as Peter teaches in 1 Peter 1:2 and 20.
BTW, they are all from the NASB.

 

[stan1953]

I do.

NOT in the slightest Hammster. You rarely quote scripture and always dismiss that which is quoted to you as not applicable, WITHOUT any reason.
Why is this common knowledge to most but you?

 

[stan1953]

While it may not be true that time functions and will function just as it does for us on earth - it is not true that there is no such thing as time with God.

Examples could fill a post. But just as an example God speaks of the time when there was nothing but Himself as "in the beginning" and "before the foundation of the world."

Therefore it is perfectly correct to say that His "prior" omniscience made that thing that He knew would occur in time a "predestined" thing.

Hope that makes sense. A person could get a little rummy following and answering posts. This may not be something I'm able to do in a very busy thread like this one. We'll see! I'm doing my best.

Not what I said. I said He is not subject to time. He created time. Time did not exist until God created it at the same time He created the universe.
That is the reason the Bible says He has no beginning or end.

 

[OzSpen]

and yet Acts 2:23 states;
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

God's plans are always based on His foreknowledge, Just as Paul teaches in Romans 8:28-30, and 11:2, and as Peter teaches in 1 Peter 1:2 and 20.
BTW, they are all from the NASB.

Well said, Stan.

‘For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified’ (Romans 8:29-30, emphasis added).

‘He foreknew’ is the Greek proegnw, aorist, active indicative of proginwskw, which means ‘know beforehand, in advance, have foreknowledge of something… Choose beforehand someone’ (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:710).

Proginwskw means to foreknow, to know in advance. The preposition pro that begins this verb does not change the meaning of ginwskw (I know), but simply dates it, the same preposition is associated with proorizw, I predestine in advance in Rom 8:29. This divine action reaches back to eternity.

We need to note that the verb for knowing is ginwskw and not oida, to know about someone, intellectual apprehension. Proginwskw refers to a knowing relationship that is a personal relationship between the knower and the person known. So it becomes plain that when God foreknew, in his omniscience He foreknew in personal relationship.

Therefore, when Jesus said concerning the unbelievers and judgment, ‘I never knew you’, Jesus did not know the wicked with the affection of a personal relationship.

Romans 8:29 most definitely refers to foreknowledge of God, a personal relationship of knowing by God with believers. I am not imposing my meaning on the text. I’m exegeting the text, based on etymology of 'foreknowledge'.

So one of the fundamentals in understanding God’s election of a person to receive salvation, is God’s foreknowledge according to Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Oz