Why Do Arminians...

[5SolasMan]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

I'm not just trying to start a debate. I'm truly curious how a major biblical doctrine can be blatently ignored. It's not as if this is some new revelation some slick dude in an expensive suit just came up with on TV. The doctrine of election can be traced back to the Apostles. It is completely biblical.

 

[UMP]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

I'm not just trying to start a debate. I'm truly curious how a major biblical doctrine can be blatently ignored. It's not as if this is some new revelation some slick dude in an expensive suit just came up with on TV. The doctrine of election can be traced back to the Apostles. It is completely biblical.

First off, I believe our carnal human nature tends to prefer the Arminian view because it makes us feel better about ourselves. (which btw is a good indication that it's from man and not God)
Secondly, if that's all you here from the pulpit, it's very hard to change your view point even when you see it in writing....."but God"
I remember when I first started hearing the "good news" on a radio program, well into my 30's. Inside I started jumping up and down because it was sweet to my troubled soul but on the other hand I said to myself "why haven't I ever heard THIS before, could it be true?"

 

[GrinningDwarf]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

Simple...Total Depravity!

Seriously...like I was telling my adult Sunday school class yesterday in our study of evangelism...we're not dealing with head problems. We're dealing with heart problems. Even if we were to argue them into a corner and get them to admit that our interpretation is correct, it will be totally usless without a changed heart as well.

 

[TigerBunny]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

I'm not just trying to start a debate. I'm truly curious how a major biblical doctrine can be blatently ignored. It's not as if this is some new revelation some slick dude in an expensive suit just came up with on TV. The doctrine of election can be traced back to the Apostles. It is completely biblical.

We spend our lives grasping at shadows. The darker the shadows the more solid they seem to us and the more we try to grab hold. It is only when the Light destroys the shadows that we stop and our hands remain open to receive.

 

[GodsElect]

And to point out when Jesus talks about the chosen it seems to get thrown to the curb...

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

 

[TigerBunny]

And to point out when Jesus talks about the chosen it seems to get thrown to the curb...

Kicked even.

 

[Imblessed]

We just spent 3 weeks talking about Election at church. We are going through 1 thessalonians and we had to spend 3 weeks on verse 4!! I'm telling ya, it's a difficult thing for people to accept.

The funny thing is, I never much thought about it until I started looking into reformed theology, and then I saw it everywhere in the bible. It's absolutely amazing, and it's even more amazing that people say it isn't there!

Tim said of all the things he teaches on from the pulpit, this is THE one that gets the most comments, e-mails, calls, stops at the grocery store, etc etc. It's a dividing doctrine, that's for sure, but he says just because it's so emotional, doesn't mean you shouldn't teach it. Because frankly, you cannot ignore it when you read the bible, so you might as well dig in and figure it out.


My question is why God allows so many people to be blinded about this. I realize that people 'want' to believe in free will/free choice because it makes them feel better, and it's all part of our sinful nature still ruling, but why does God allow so many to stay blinded?

 

[Phileoeklogos]

One of the 4 or 5 things that kept whacking me over the head in Scripture was all those "God doing the choosing" verses, I couldn't find any that said I chose, it finally dawned on me, those verses that say God chooses, must mean that God chooses, and Grace must really be Grace, now that was a mindblower....

 

[DeaconDean]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

I'm not just trying to start a debate. I'm truly curious how a major biblical doctrine can be blatently ignored. It's not as if this is some new revelation some slick dude in an expensive suit just came up with on TV. The doctrine of election can be traced back to the Apostles. It is completely biblical.

Two items come to mind straight off:

1. Prevelant grace verses Sovereign grace.
2. Total depravity.

Actually, these two are intertwined in Arminianism. Whereas total depravity has left man powerless and born with Adam's sinful nature, so that man cannot do anything without God's sovereign grace. Arminianism teaches that because man's nature was not affected by Adam's original sin, man now has prevelant grace.

There is a rather good, short and to the point article on Arminianism and prevenient grace here:

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/arminians-and-prevenient-grace

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Elect]

How can Arminians ignore the numerous Scriptures proving God sovereignly chooses those who will spend eternity with Him,?

I'm not just trying to start a debate. I'm truly curious how a major biblical doctrine can be blatently ignored. It's not as if this is some new revelation some slick dude in an expensive suit just came up with on TV. The doctrine of election can be traced back to the Apostles. It is completely biblical.

It is a very scary thing for a person to realize that they are not behind the wheel of the car as it races down the street. I believe that is one of the biggest things for a person is to realize that they are at the total mercy of Almighty God that will do whatever He wants with them. whatever He does, it will be just. For believers this should be a great joy to them, but apparently it is not for some. salvation is of the Lord, from start to finish.
I will not have Him rule over me. It was my choice, you Calvinists!!!

 

[edie19]

My question is why God allows so many people to be blinded about this. I realize that people 'want' to believe in free will/free choice because it makes them feel better, and it's all part of our sinful nature still ruling, but why does God allow so many to stay blinded?

I wish I had the answer to that. When I read something like the High Priestly prayer - where Christ clearly talks about those God has given Him I can't help but wonder - what are those who believe in free will/free choice reading?

edie

 

[TigerBunny]

I wish I had the answer to that. When I read something like the High Priestly prayer - where Christ clearly talks about those God has given Him I can't help but wonder - what are those who believe in free will/free choice reading?

edie

Reading? Likely some highly fluffy gender pc Bible annotated by Finney.

Sorry...I'm in a highly grumpy mood right now that will require no small amount of repentance shortly.

 

[heymikey80]

I wish I had the answer to that. When I read something like the High Priestly prayer - where Christ clearly talks about those God has given Him I can't help but wonder - what are those who believe in free will/free choice reading?

edie

I think if you start looking at the backgrounds of such people you'll find out how this happens, and why it happens.

I can only speak from experience, ok? So my experience is highly limited, I've never really asked other people about it (though one person asked me a couple of questions one day a few years ago).

I can remember my grandmother and very outgoing people in her congregation courteously and graciously encouraging spiritual conversation with me from an early age.

Their conversation revolved around certain issues uppermost in their minds. And that conversation was underway for decades if not centuries before I came upon it.

The conversation didn't seem to notice Scripture saying things differently -- and often neither did I. Often it was individual sentences being used from Scripture to construct a view.

The people were in earnest about finding what Scripture said, and then testing whether it really said it and then whether they believed it. There are a lot of Wesleyans who think very much along the same lines as Calvinists -- just with different ideas about the breadth and depth of God's grace.

Of course we start with the viewpoints of our cultures (and often we stick there). As I work with other Christians I find a number of different depths and thoughts about what Scripture says. Some's obviously self-deception to me. Other's jut lack of knowledge, or deception from outside.

 

[edie19]

I think if you start looking at the backgrounds of such people you'll find out how this happens, and why it happens.

I can only speak from experience, ok? So my experience is highly limited, I've never really asked other people about it (though one person asked me a couple of questions one day a few years ago).

I can remember my grandmother and very outgoing people in her congregation courteously and graciously encouraging spiritual conversation with me from an early age.

Their conversation revolved around certain issues uppermost in their minds. And that conversation was underway for decades if not centuries before I came upon it.

The conversation didn't seem to notice Scripture saying things differently -- and often neither did I. Often it was individual sentences being used from Scripture to construct a view.

The people were in earnest about finding what Scripture said, and then testing whether it really said it and then whether they believed it. There are a lot of Wesleyans who think very much along the same lines as Calvinists -- just with different ideas about the breadth and depth of God's grace.

Of course we start with the viewpoints of our cultures (and often we stick there). As I work with other Christians I find a number of different depths and thoughts about what Scripture says. Some's obviously self-deception to me. Other's jut lack of knowledge, or deception from outside.

Excellent points - background certainly does make a difference. With the exception of attending a RCC for ~1 year with my husband I've only attended churches with Reformed roots (although I'm the first to admit some have forgotten those roots).

edie

 

[sonofvu]

I visited my parents a few weeks ago in Florida. They go to a Southern Baptist Church and the pastor does not believe in limited atonement. Now here is the kicker. They are going through the Westminster Shorter Catechism in Sunday school. The Sunday I was there they were on the question of God's sovereignty. I wish I could be there to see what they do about God's sovereignty when it comes to the elect.

 

[Elect]

I visited my parents a few weeks ago in Florida. They go to a Southern Baptist Church and the pastor does not believe in limited atonement. Now here is the kicker. They are going through the Westminster Shorter Catechism in Sunday school. The Sunday I was there they were on the question of God's sovereignty. I wish I could be there to see what they do about God's sovereignty when it comes to the elect.

That's to funny!

Human nature is something else.

 

[kj7gs]

They believe that grace follows faith, it does not precede it. Our Ordo Salutis is not their Ordo Salutis.

 

[kj7gs]

Arminians look at it from the viewpoint of choice being linked to love rather than love being a prescient rescue from our condition. Unfortunately, they don't seem to realize that by taking away God's choice and giving it to ourselves, the elevate themselves to a godlike level, or at the very least bring God down to man's level.

I've heard the phrase, "God doesn't want robots" often enough from that side of the fence. That logic would be true IF we have the full capability of fellowship with God. They operate from that assumption, we operate from the opposite viewpoint of total depravity.

 

[TigerBunny]

There is a rather good, short and to the point article on Arminianism and prevenient grace here:

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/arminians-and-prevenient-grace

God Bless

Till all are one.

That is a really good article DD...thank you.