Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

Rawtheran · Jan 9, 2020

Gwendolynz said:
I walk a lonely path. Institutional Religious Folk have always rejected me. If you feel I am a Heretic, you would not be the first. God loves me. The Lutheran Pastor where I attend is kind to me. You would not have wanted to go where I've been.

Gwen, ahuva Adonai. Though yo feel that you walk a lonely road you are not alone. God always has and always will be watching. The institutional church is not the real church at all it's just a building run by a bureaucracy. The real church is the invisible church or the all of the people in the world past, present, and future who have said yes to the salvation that Jesus has to offer. I don't think you are a heretic, I think you are on the path to trying to find truth. I'm not going to give you "theology" or the teachings of men, I will give you what God gives and it is up to you to pray about it and ask God to confirm it in your heart. I'm merely planting the seed and he is the farmer who has to make it grow. You seek truth but Jesus who is God in the flesh once said:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

God also confirms this in the Tanach when he says:

4For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel My chosen one, I call you by name; I have given you a title of honor, though you have not known Me. 5I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. I will equip you for battle, though you have not known Me, 6so that all may know, from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting, that there is none but Me; I am the LORD, and there is no other - Isaiah 45:5

Meaning that if you seek truth God is the truth! There are no other religions, there is no Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, etc. there is only God! Before God even created you he loved you and knows you and he wants you to know him!

“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart." - Jeremiah 1:5.

Forget about Transubstantiation, Lutheranism, and all of these other theological terms because to be honest I don't think they're important in your life right now. You seek the truth and the truth you seek is to know God. Gwen if you truly wish to know God then its time to come to know him fully like you've never known him before. It is only through Jesus that we can know God. We can never earn our way to Heaven or earn having a relationship with God. We can never earn God's love or get into Heaven by strictly observing the Torah, Hadiths, or through the lie of reincarnation. It's not about what humans can do because they don't deserve it. I don't deserve it and neither do you. It's not about what we have done but what has been done for you. God made a way to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and to have a relationship with him.

Gwen it is only by asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and also asking him to come into your life and free you that you can truly know God. No other false religion which is of Satan can do this. Not even the Church can save. Only Jesus saves.

God is calling you Gwen. Repent and believe. If you hunger and thirst, you will be filled.

Josheb · Jan 9, 2020

renniks said:
I have no idea what you are going on about. What does race have to do with it? There are no such restrictions in the context.

Re-read it until you do understand it because the problem with comprehending it is not in the post.

Context is a necessary condition for understanding what is written in scripture. Appraising local and global contexts is one of the foremost and basic of exegetical principles and not what the reader "thinks" something means.

renniks said:
There are no such restrictions in the context.

No, race is not a restriction stipulated by the Revelation 3 passage, but being members of the church and known by Christ are.

ICONO'CLAST · Jan 9, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Calvin knew that from the foundation of the world God chose those in His foreknowledge who would be saved.

He left the whole word of God and disregarded that God has called all men to repentance.

That leaves it to man not God who will be saved and who will not.

You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.

Al Touthentop · Jan 9, 2020

BobRyan said:
This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".

The only doctrine that matters is the apostle's doctrine which is Jesus' doctrine. It's his church and no other.

Al Touthentop · Jan 9, 2020

Dave L said:
The gospel is not a proposal. You think it is and think you must accept. But whatever you think it is, it is not the gospel.

"And if I am lifted up, I will draw all people to myself."

And he was lifted up and he draws everyone. Some chose to believe.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 9, 2020

BobRyan said:
Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others

Both.

The only people who, "will", are those who are chosen beforehand.
The only people who, *can*, are those who are chosen beforehand.

Rawtheran · Jan 9, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
The only doctrine that matters is the apostle's doctrine which is Jesus' doctrine. It's his church and no other.

This person right here gave the most intelligent answer in this entire thread.

Ilikecats · Jan 9, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
"And if I am lifted up, I will draw all people to myself."

And he was lifted up and he draws everyone. Some chose to believe.

Jesus is mentioning that he will draw all people as in both Gentiles and Jews. Not everyone is drawn to the Lord as many never have heard the gospel.

Ilikecats · Jan 9, 2020

Ilikecats said:
Jesus is mentioning that he will draw all people as in both Gentiles and Jews. Not everyone is drawn to the Lord as many never have heard the gospel.

If you read the passage there are Greek people in the crowd with Jesus and he’s just saying to the Jews that they will be drawn to him.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Romans 10:14

For someone to believe the gospel has to be preached to them. There have been countless humans who have died never hearing the gospel.

Al Touthentop · Jan 10, 2020

Ilikecats said:
Jesus is mentioning that he will draw all people as in both Gentiles and Jews. Not everyone is drawn to the Lord as many never have heard the gospel.

All people means all people. Gentiles are every nation of people who weren't Israel at that time.

Peter J Barban · Jan 10, 2020

BobRyan said:
This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.

In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".

It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.

=====================================================
In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have

Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?

And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.

But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
===========================================

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.

==========================================

1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.

Actually, God's choice in salvation is declared and affirmed by numerous passages in the Bible. However, "Free will" is only inferred by (some) readers of the Bible.

Declaration is a much stronger form of evidence than inference.

Charlie24 · Jan 10, 2020

ICONO'CLAST said:
You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.

Enough to know the Calvinists are dead wrong. Paul did not contradict himself on the matter!

Dave L · Jan 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
"And if I am lifted up, I will draw all people to myself."

And he was lifted up and he draws everyone. Some chose to believe.

“The Father is the One who sent me. No one can come to me unless the Father draws [drags] him to me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.” John 6:44 (NCV)

so all men = all who the Father drags to Jesus.

Dave L · Jan 10, 2020

klutedavid said:
Actually Dave, you can believe that you are saved but your salvation is ultimately in God's hands. As the text states, many are called but few are chosen.

But God saved me giving me the fruit of the Holy Spirit so I could believe.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 10, 2020

Rawtheran said:
This person right here gave the most intelligent answer in this entire thread.

I have no idea what they said.

BobRyan · Jan 10, 2020

Dave L said:
“The Father is the One who sent me. No one can come to me unless the Father draws [drags] him to me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.” John 6:44 (NCV)

so all men = all who the Father drags to Jesus.

No one can come to me unless the Father draws him John 6:44
"I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

Problem solved when it comes to the claim that God is using the supposed "arbitrary selection" system.

Some people use a form of "extreme inference" to insert Calvinism in texts where it does not exist.

BobRyan · Jan 10, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
Actually, God's choice in salvation is declared and affirmed by numerous passages in the Bible. However, "Free will" is only inferred by (some) readers of the Bible. .

"I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE opens the door I Will come in " Rev 3.. no "inference needed"

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:;11 -- no "inference needed"
God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

"We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 - "needs no inference"

Notice where the focus of "action" is in Rom 10

Rom 10: "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

The incredibly obvious part of this (and others in the OP) is that it takes a lot of word-smith gymnastics to get a Calvinist preference/POV to survive those texts which is far from "we would need a lot of inference to see how those texts support the free-will Arminian POV".

How is that not obvious??

Peter J Barban said:
Declaration is a much stronger form of evidence than inference.

on that point we can agree 100%

BobRyan · Jan 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
The only doctrine that matters is the apostle's doctrine which is Jesus' doctrine.

Amen - take a look at what we found - in scripture -- in that regard in the OP

FreeinChrist · Jan 10, 2020

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up. Please stick to the topic.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Josheb said:
Re-read it until you do understand it because the problem with comprehending it is not in the post.

Context is a necessary condition for understanding what is written in scripture. Appraising local and global contexts is one of the foremost and basic of exegetical principles and not what the reader "thinks" something means.

No, race is not a restriction stipulated by the Revelation 3 passage, but being members of the church and known by Christ are.

Any man means any man. You are trying to add what isn't there.

Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

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