Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[Ilikecats]

Oh sorry I mean that God is partial. But if the ransom for all is for all then why is not everyone saved?

1 Timothy beforehand is talking about all kinds of people and that’s what the ransom is referring to.

 

[renniks]

Oh sorry I mean that God is partial. But if the ransom for all is for all then why is not everyone saved?

Because not all accept the gift.
"Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the desert, in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

 

[BobRyan]

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
.

the difference being nothing productive can come from this discussion. A bible believing and faithful believer on either side shouldn’t live their life any differently regardless of their opinion on this issue.

Seriously? They both look the same? belief has no consequences?

=================================

Imagine if you will that there is a town called lazy-ville where a lot of parents and children are known to be lazy, and there are two middle schools in the town.

In the first school there is a 7th grade class where during recess/p.e. all the students either get first-place-prize or they all get last-place depending on how the teacher feels that day -- but no matter if it is "first-place"-day or not they all get the same grade, first-place on first-place-day and F on the day the teacher decides is F day for the class.

And the final grade given out for science, math, hist, language at the end of the year is one where 10% of the class gets A's randomly selected. And the rest get "F".

In the second school - whoever wins the race gets first place,,, whoever comes in last gets last-place. .And the grades are the same - whoever studies reads the help notes from the teacher and knows the answers gets the A and whoever does not study, and ignores the teacher's help-notes and knows no answers - gets F's. Yet in the end 10% get A's and the rest get F's.

==========================================
Question: As a parent - where do you send your child?

In some cultures the children of the ultra-wealthy end up being lazy because they are rolling-in-cash no matter what they do.

In some of those same cultures the "lower-cast" are kept down no matter what they do - so they sometimes give up on trying.

The system that we are under --- does make a difference.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Seriously? They both look the same? belief has no consequences?

Educate me on how belief in Calvinism or Arminianism changes what a believer actually does?

 

[BobRyan]

Educate me on how belief in Calvinism or Arminianism changes what a believer actually does?

see the illustration posted here: Today at 3:17 PM #443

 

[Josheb]

No, I think that burdens on you to prove how that's possible.

Well, you'd be wrong (once again). You asserted something about Calvinism that isn't correct and is verifable as incorrect via the long- and well-established authoritative doctrinal statements. If you think there is some contradiction therein then the onus is on you, not others. Furthermore, I have already (again, preemptively) addressed you concern and provided an analogy by which the efficacy of the WCF 3.1 is easily understood no matter one's soteriological position. You've ignored it.

If everything is pre decided by the universe, we have atheistic. determinism.

Already you've blown it!

It is not merely that "everything is pre-decided." The correct understanding is "everything is pre-decided without causing sin and without causing violence to human will and without causing violence to secondary causes." If you truncate the "everything is decided" part without the explicit conditions of clauses then you are not correctly understanding Calvinism. When you argue against that misrepresentation you are arguing a straw man.

Here's another crude analogy: Suppose I am playing basketball or soccer and I have the ball at one end of the court or field and I wish to score a goal at the other end. I plot my course to do so and I do so knowing all of the possible positions and paths of all other players at any and every given point in time (which God created and is not bound to or by); positions and paths they themselves have freely chosen apart from my accomplishing my objective. I do so knowing all potential intersections of others' choices with my own purpose and actions, and I do so without causing violence to any of their choices.

If everything is pre decided by God we have theistic determinism.

Yep. God determines His actions. God does not determine the actions of others, but sin does. God simply metes out the lawful consequences of that tyranny based on his already-established laws and rule.

All the confession does is state that is not so, when logically, it clearly is. It doesn't explain how it is not so.

The evidence says otherwise and you are on record arguing a straw man and demonstrating a remarkable lack of thought and insight. WCF 3.1 is not difficult to understand.

 

[Josheb]

"Your Honor, we maintain that Josheb is not responsible for the bank robbery"

Judge: "Did Josheb plan the robbery?"

Failed analogy. Josh didn't rob the bank. Calvinism is not robot theology. You are demonstrating a profound ignorance on the matter.

Seriously, renniks; stupendous stupidity. Stop and think. When you figure t out you are going to facealm yourself and feel embarrassed you posted so foolishly.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The Law of Christ, and it is because of Christ.
Without His death, burial, and resurrection I would still be "of the flesh" instead of "of the Spirit".
He is my "Shepherd", and I follow Him.

But, you don't sin. You need no atonement for your sins, as you have none, so I don't understand your need for Christ.

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. — Jesus

 

[renniks]

Seriously, renniks; stupendous stupidity. Stop and think. When you figure t out you are going to facealm yourself and feel embarrassed you posted so foolishly.

I'm pretty sure there's a rule against calling people stupid on the forum. Get over yourself.

 

[renniks]

Here's another crude analogy: Suppose I am playing basketball or soccer and I have the ball at one end of the court or field and I wish to score a goal at the other end. I plot my course to do so and I do so knowing all of the possible positions and paths of all other players at any and every given point in time (which God created and is not bound to or by); positions and paths they themselves have freely chosen apart from my accomplishing my objective. I do so knowing all potential intersections of others' choices with my own purpose and actions, and I do so without causing violence to any of their choices.

Nope that is not Calvinism. In Calvinism, God doesn't make choices based on his foreknowledge. He makes the choice for everyone. He chooses not only what he will do, but what they will do.
"although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions....The foreknowledge of God will necessarily infer a decree, for God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be; and that because things would not be future, unless he had decreed they should be." If God be an independent being, all creatures must have an entire dependence upon him; but this dependence proves undeniably that all their acts must be regulated by his sovereign will. If God be of one mind, which none can change, he must have unalterably fixed everything in his purpose which he effects in his providence."

Everything means everything, every sin directly caused by God's decree.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's supply the next few verses..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:9-11)
I was raised from the dead when I was "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
I am a new creature now.

Good point. That Gospel is about forgiveness of sin and as Romans 6 points out - freedom FROM sin.
I have seen some posts that make it appear that the Gospel is about rebellion-without-consequence as if the highest goal is rebellion against the Word of God.

 

[Josheb]

I'm pretty sure there's a rule against calling people stupid on the forum. Get over yourself.

Didn't call you stupid. Said the idea was stupid. People have been arguing the WCF for nearly five centuries. Yours is not an argument informed synergists make; it is an argument they know not to make because it's a straw man. Learn to separate the person from the posts. Saying Calvinism makes humans robots is foolishness and I stand by that appraisal.

Do that when you figure out your error: don't face palm yourself and say, "I'm stupid," Shake your head in honest incredulity and say, "Ah! What a stupid thing to post." Big difference.

There is, however, a rule against telling posters to get over themselves. Log, not speck. Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

Facts remain:
​

The Calvinism is not robot theology.
There is no contradiction within WCF 3.1.
There are very simple and accessible logical ways to understand what has so far escaped understanding.
I have already addressed the matter at least twice and both posts are being ignored.
You are arguing a straw man, a misrepresentation of Calvinist theology and soteriology.
It has yet to be shown Calvinism is correctly understood.
Links to the relevant information were provided and they too are (apparently) being neglected.​

That's not on the Cals.

​

 

[Josheb]

Nope that is not Calvinism. In Calvinism, God doesn't make choices based on his foreknowledge.

Never said he did.

The analogy was to demonstrate how easy it is to understand pre-decision without causing sin and how easy it is to understand pre-decision without doing violence to others' will.

You're too couched in flaw-finding, renniks, and it's getting in the way of you understanding what is otherwise very easily understood.

He makes the choice for everyone.

No, He makes the choice for Himself. Again, the WCF states quite plainly what God decides He decides without any regard for what the human may or may not do. Another straw man is being argued. Another failure to correctly understand Calvinism is demonstrated.

"II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated to everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, to everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace."​

He chooses not only what he will do, but what they will do.

No, sin took away your choice, not God.

"although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions....The foreknowledge of God will necessarily infer a decree, for God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be; and that because things would not be future, unless he had decreed they should be." If God be an independent being, all creatures must have an entire dependence upon him; but this dependence proves undeniably that all their acts must be regulated by his sovereign will. If God be of one mind, which none can change, he must have unalterably fixed everything in his purpose which he effects in his providence."

Everything means everything, every sin directly caused by God's decree.

No, everything means everything but the conditions stated. Everything but the causation of sin, violence to human will, and violence to secondary causes.

You can claim it says something ese but it states what it states and the lack of understanding does not change that fact.

Neither does argumentum ad nauseam.

 

[renniks]

No, sin took away your choice, not God.

Not according to the confession. He already ordained everything including every one of my sins. To blame it on sin is just to appeal to something God ( in reformed theology) caused.

 

[renniks]

There is, however, a rule against telling posters to get over themselves. Log, not speck. Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

Says the guy who just called me stupid.

 

[renniks]

Never said he did.

The analogy was to demonstrate how easy it is to understand pre-decision without causing sin and how easy it is to understand pre-decision without doing violence to others' will.

No, it was misleading. Calves do this constantly. Appeal to foreknowledge as if it means anything in thier system. It's irrelevant, if God is decreeing what happens without foreseeing it. Y'all also limit God to knowing only what he decrees. I can know what I'm going to do. That's not a supernatural attribute at all.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Seriously? They both look the same? belief has no consequences?

=================================

Imagine if you will that there is a town called lazy-ville where a lot of parents and children are known to be lazy, and there are two middle schools in the town.

In the first school there is a 7th grade class where during recess/p.e. all the students either get first-place-prize or they all get last-place depending on how the teacher feels that day -- but no matter if it is "first-place"-day or not they all get the same grade, first-place on first-place-day and F on the day the teacher decides is F day for the class.

And the final grade given out for science, math, hist, language at the end of the year is one where 10% of the class gets A's randomly selected. And the rest get "F".

In the second school - whoever wins the race gets first place,,, whoever comes in last gets last-place. .And the grades are the same - whoever studies reads the help notes from the teacher and knows the answers gets the A and whoever does not study, and ignores the teacher's help-notes and knows no answers - gets F's. Yet in the end 10% get A's and the rest get F's.

==========================================
Question: As a parent - where do you send your child?

In some cultures the children of the ultra-wealthy end up being lazy because they are rolling-in-cash no matter what they do.

In some of those same cultures the "lower-cast" are kept down no matter what they do - so they sometimes give up on trying.

The system that we are under --- does make a difference.

Huh? Calvinism and Arminianism Is what i was talking about. Christians on both sides have to do the same things, their perspective on free will and election is irrelevant to the way they live their lives.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

thank you for your response.

I don’t think vague descriptions about how people think answers my question. I believe that God fearing Arminians and Calvinists who have the Holy Spirit and feel their interpretation is correct can live their lives in a way that honors God regardless of which side they are on.

I also believe that either camp thinks they are right and the other is wrong because they use characterizations of eachother instead of understanding the valid scriptural defenses for components of both theological frameworks for salvation.


Ultimately all of us arguing and wasting time on this discussion in these camps are like preschoolers sitting around the playground arguing with each other over our beliefs about Trigonometry.

 

[BobRyan]

Educate me on how belief in Calvinism or Arminianism changes what a believer actually does?

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
.

the difference being nothing productive can come from this discussion. A bible believing and faithful believer on either side shouldn’t live their life any differently regardless of their opinion on this issue.

Seriously? They both look the same? belief has no consequences?

=================================

Imagine if you will that there is a town called lazy-ville where a lot of parents and children are known to be lazy, and there are two middle schools in the town.

In the first school there is a 7th grade class where during recess/p.e. all the students either get first-place-prize or they all get last-place depending on how the teacher feels that day -- but no matter if it is "first-place"-day or not they all get the same grade, first-place on first-place-day and F on the day the teacher decides is F day for the class.

And the final grade given out for science, math, hist, language at the end of the year is one where 10% of the class gets A's randomly selected. And the rest get "F".

In the second school - whoever wins the race gets first place,,, whoever comes in last gets last-place. .And the grades are the same - whoever studies reads the help notes from the teacher and knows the answers gets the A and whoever does not study, and ignores the teacher's help-notes and knows no answers - gets F's. Yet in the end 10% get A's and the rest get F's.

==========================================
Question: As a parent - where do you send your child?

In some cultures the children of the ultra-wealthy end up being lazy because they are rolling-in-cash no matter what they do.

In some of those same cultures the "lower-cast" are kept down no matter what they do - so they sometimes give up on trying.

Obviously the system that we are under --- does make a difference.

-- consider yourself educated..

Huh? Calvinism and Arminianism Is what i was talking about.

-- or not.

Christians on both sides have to do the same things, their perspective on free will and election

as in the illustration I gave contrasting the two systems, showing that it is not irrelevant to the way they live their lives.

details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

thank you for your response.

I don’t think vague descriptions about how people think answers my question.

As it turns out.. .the way people think determines how they behave.

I believe that God fearing Arminians and Calvinists who have the Holy Spirit and feel their interpretation is correct

we all agree there - but there is a vast difference between the model of arbitrary-selection and the model of free will. I don't know of very many people who will try to squeeze that down into "its all the same".

As shown in the illustration I gave.

No doubt that if you hold the details at a sufficient distance - it looks the same much as our entire solar system looks like one tiny bright dot "at a sufficient distance" from the details.