Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[Dave L]

I agree with you about the gospel being an announcement, but I also see it as an offer...of a seat in a life boat.
From there on it is up to us to row, bail, seal holes, navigate, signal, live.
We can still jump out any time we believe something else is more important than...eternal life.

But you are already dead and floating in the water. Salvation by grace is similar to Christ grabbing you and bringing you back to life and pulling you into the boat..

 

[BBAS 64]

I agree with you about the gospel being an announcement, but I also see it as an offer...of a seat in a life boat.
From there on it is up to us to row, bail, seal holes, navigate, signal, live.
We can still jump out any time we believe something else is more important than...eternal life.

Good Day, Phil

The dead man does not need a boat... he needs life.

I always thought eternal life.. meant it was life that was eternal no matter what you though of it. When did the meaning become subjective?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Phil W]

But you are already dead and floating in the water. Salvation by grace is similar to Christ grabbing you and bringing you back to life and pulling you into the boat..

Dead in trespasses and sins, yes I know.
But after hearing of the kind of life I can partake of, I have come to accept the "offer" that He made available to me.
But He doesn't "grab me"; I come to Him.

Frankly, I don't think I can be labeled Armin' or Calv'.

 

[renniks]

In Calvinism, if we currently have faith, we know we are saved, too. Both can be fooling themselves, and both can be right. Both end up depending on God as judge. But of the two, only Calvinism depends on God to also be the the cause of salvation, so that the human flights of fancy are of no regard in the truth of the matter.

But in Calvinism, God has chosen a few people at random for salvation. There is no way to know who is irresistibly elected and who isn't. No, you can't know you have salvation if you currently have faith, because it could be just God giving you temporarily something that seems like faith. For an Arminian, there is no such problem. There is no secret will of God, there is only God's revealed will that all that have faith will be saved.

 

[Phil W]

Good Day, Phil
The dead man does not need a boat... he needs life.

Though spiritually dead,, I am still alive physically.
In this physical life we have choices to make, among them...will we serve God or not.
That is a choice we make.

I always thought eternal life.. meant it was life that was eternal no matter what you thought of it. When did the meaning become subjective?

Can you prove there will be an eternal life?[/QUOTE]

 

[Dave L]

Dead in trespasses and sins, yes I know.
But after hearing of the kind of life I can partake of, I have come to accept the "offer" that He made available to me.
But He doesn't "grab me"; I come to Him.

Frankly, I don't think I can be labeled Armin' or Calv'.

All who believe are saved. You believed (were saved) or you would not have repented.

 

[Dave L]

Though spiritually dead,, I am still alive physically.
In this physical life we have choices to make, among them...will we serve God or not.
That is a choice we make.


Can you prove there will be an eternal life?

[/QUOTE]
= you save yourself.

 

[Phil W]

= you save yourself.[/QUOTE]
I "got in the boat", yes.
But He was the boat and I still had the choice of drowning or not.

 

[Phil W]

All who believe are saved. You believed (were saved) or you would not have repented.

My salvation won't be assured till I hear that my name is in the book of life.
I'm going to live each day as if my soul depended on my obedience to God.

 

[Dave L]

My salvation won't be assured till I hear that my name is in the book of life.
I'm going to live each day as if my soul depended on my obedience to God.

Your name was there since the foundation of world.

 

[Dave L]

= you save yourself.

I "got in the boat", yes.
But He was the boat and I still had the choice of drowning or not.[/QUOTE]
Saved people were already drowned. And Jesus brought them to life. If you can climb in the boat, you don't need for him to save you.

 

[BobRyan]

"I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE opens the door I Will come in " Rev 3.. no "inference needed"

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:;11 -- no "inference needed"
God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

"We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 - "needs no inference"

Notice where the focus of "action" is in Rom 10

Rom 10: "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

The incredibly obvious part of this (and others in the OP) is that it takes a lot of word-smith gymnastics to get a Calvinist preference/POV to survive those texts which is far from "we would need a lot of inference to see how those texts support the free-will Arminian POV".

How is that not obvious??
============================

And of course in John 1:11 we have the "action" on the part of both parties.
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Just as in Matthew 23
"O Jerusalem - how I wanted to spare your children.. BUT YOU would not"

God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

predictably the mere quote of the texts above will be sufficient cause to give rise to the objection if one does not approve of the statements they make.

I once embarked on a thesis paper to defend Reformed theology --and I studied every passage (you quote verses here, pretty much ignoring context)

As predicted. With nothing but the quote of the text above - you post the accusation that it is me 'ignoring context'.

So you expected me to quote your references, AND the contexts?
.

No, I expect that my act of simply quoting the texts above will bring out complaints and objections. The mere quote of the text is sufficient to do that if some reader starts out having a problem with the text being quoted.

My point is that the text does not need to "be fixed" so it fits Calvinism - it is just fine to quote it as it is.

 

[renniks]

But you are already dead and floating in the water. Salvation by grace is similar to Christ grabbing you and bringing you back to life and pulling you into the boat..

Being dead in sin is a metaphor. It doesn't mean we can't respond to the Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Being dead in sin is a metaphor. It doesn't mean we can't respond to the Spirit.

Indeed even the Calvinists admit that it does not mean that infinite God cannot draw us and fully enable all the "Choice" to accept the gospel that depravity disables.

Notice where the focus of "action" is in Rom 10

Rom 10: "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
.

 

[renniks]

Indeed even the Calvinists admit that it does not mean that infinite God cannot draw us and fully enable all the "Choice" to accept the gospel that depravity disables.

Well what always gets me, is they claim dead in sin is literal, corpse like, but dead to sin doesn't mean we can't sin, of course. It seems very inconsistent.

 

[Phil W]

Your name was there since the foundation of world.

Isn't everybody's?
Some just have their names erased.

 

[Phil W]

I "got in the boat", yes.
But He was the boat and I still had the choice of drowning or not.

Saved people were already drowned. And Jesus brought them to life. If you can climb in the boat, you don't need for him to save you.[/QUOTE]
Dave,
You attributed somebody else's comment to me.
Would you please go back and edit this?

Aside from that, without me, I would not be saved.
If I wasn't here to answer the call, there would be no salvation for me.
I heard the message, and responded to it.
I chose to repent of all sin, and to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
God won't save people without...the people.
We all have our part to play.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But in Calvinism, God has chosen a few people at random for salvation. There is no way to know who is irresistibly elected and who isn't. No, you can't know you have salvation if you currently have faith, because it could be just God giving you temporarily something that seems like faith. For an Arminian, there is no such problem. There is no secret will of God, there is only God's revealed will that all that have faith will be saved.

Say what? At random? God did not choose from a pool of possibles. He made some vessels for honor, others for dishonor. God choose at random? No wonder you think he is capricious.

No, Rennik, he created for a specific purpose, not a random purpose. God has no regard for chance happenings. He is building his special creation, and created the precise members (the parts) for it, and is shaping them as we speak. Random????!!! Far from it! The Bible teaches no such thing!

 

[renniks]

Say what? At random? God did not choose from a pool of possibles. He made some vessels for honor, others for dishonor. God choose at random? No wonder you think he is capricious.

No, Rennik, he created for a specific purpose, not a random purpose. God has no regard for chance happenings. He is building his special creation, and created the precise members (the parts) for it, and is shaping them as we speak. Random????!!! Far from it! The Bible teaches no such thing!

No, the Bible doesn't say it, but Calvinists say he chose without condition. Hence, randomly. 2Timothy 2:20-22 explains that the vessels are not chosen unconditionally at all.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE opens the door I Will come in " Rev 3.. no "inference needed"

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:;11 -- no "inference needed"
God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

"We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 - "needs no inference"

Notice where the focus of "action" is in Rom 10

Rom 10: "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

The incredibly obvious part of this (and others in the OP) is that it takes a lot of word-smith gymnastics to get a Calvinist preference/POV to survive those texts which is far from "we would need a lot of inference to see how those texts support the free-will Arminian POV".

How is that not obvious??
============================

And of course in John 1:11 we have the "action" on the part of both parties.
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Just as in Matthew 23
"O Jerusalem - how I wanted to spare your children.. BUT YOU would not"

God's lament - "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 needs no "inference"

predictably the mere quote of the texts above will be sufficient cause to give rise to the objection if one does not approve of the statements they make.









No, I expect that my act of simply quoting the texts above will bring out complaints and objections. The mere quote of the text is sufficient to do that if some reader starts out having a problem with the text being quoted.

My point is that the text does not need to "be fixed" so it fits Calvinism - it is just fine to quote it as it is.

I love the texts you quote. You infer something from them that I do not.

Strangely, you didn't say "no inference needed" for Romans 10:10, where you must find a version to fit your free will doctrine. Most versions say something like, "....confession is made unto salvation." You had to say, "...resulting in salvation." The Greek "eis" is not that specific.

My man, you seem intent on giving man the credit for the work of God. "Apart from me, you can do nothing." Are you going to object to that verse? So abide in him!

Oh, and please, stop saying that Calvinism and Reformed Theology deny choice. They demand choice!