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Quid est Veritas?

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Isn't "glorious revolution" propaganda? The truth is that James II of England was Catholic and Parliament would not tolerate having a Catholic king so they offered the crown to a member of the House of Orange in the Netherlands. It was not a bloodless revolution. Many thousands died at the hand of William and the rebellious Parliament. It was in fact yet another civil war in England. There was nothing glorious about it for Christians.
I am just calling it by its generally used name. Whether you agree or not, is not really the point. It is also sometimes called the 'Bloodless Revolution', for by the standards of the time, and so soon after the Civil Wars, it was comparatively bloodless. A few thousand is hardly anything by 17th century standards of a political change.

It was about Catholicism, but also about royal power. James II strongly asserted the Divine Right of Kings, squabbled with parliament, reinforced a standing army that he staffed mostly with Catholics and arrested people for sedition that spoke out against it. Basically he was intent on setting back the clock to the Personal Rule of Charles I, and likely would have attempted to return the English Church to Catholicism if able. This was the fear of his army and his libel laws, it looked like a new Catholic Terror was looming, like Bloody Mary.

Parliament acted to cut off Tyranny and soon thereafter enshrined parliamentary rule and individual rights. It ensured rights for non-conformist Protestants and never again would Absolutism stalk the British countryside. So in my opinion, it is Glorious if you support Democracy and is a direct antecedant for the American Revolution, which based a lot of its aims on the (British) Bill of Rights drafted in 1689.
If you're Protestant or Jewish, it also secured your personal and religious liberty. You can't expect perfection, for yes, Catholicism remained proscribed in the public sphere thereafter, but on balance it was likely a 'good thing' that James II was overthrown.
 
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GingerBeer

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I am just calling it by its generally used name. Whether you agree or not, is not really the point. It is also sometimes called the 'Bloodless Revolution', for by the standards of the time, and so soon after the Civil Wars, it was comparatively bloodless. A few thousand is hardly anything by 17th century standards of a political change.

It was about Catholicism, but also about royal power. James II strongly asserted the Divine Right of Kings, squabbled with parliament, reinforced a standing army that he staffed mostly with Catholics and arrested people for sedition that spoke out against it. Basically he was intent on setting back the clock to the Personal Rule of Charles I, and likely would have attempted to return the English Church to Catholicism if able. This was the fear of his army and his libel laws, it looked like a new Catholic Terror was looming, like Bloody Mary.

Parliament acted to cut off Tyranny and soon thereafter enshrined parliamentary rule and individual rights. It ensured rights for non-conformist Protestants and never again would Absolutism stalk the British countryside. So in my opinion, it is Glorious if you support Democracy and is a direct antecedant for the American Revolution, which based a lot of its aims on the (British) Bill of Rights drafted in 1689.
If you're Protestant or Jewish, it also secured your personal and religious liberty. You can't expect perfection, for yes, Catholicism remained proscribed in the public sphere thereafter, but on balance it was likely a 'good thing' that James II was overthrown.
The "Orange men" and their marching season in Northern Ireland are commemorating worldly battles and wicked things while saint Patrick's day commemorates the life and good works of a man who gave his time and work as well as his life to God. If some people get drunk and some misbehave on those days then how sad for them.
 
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Vicomte13

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The problem of blaming it all on 'English Oppression', is that it doesn't hold water. It probably played a part, but is far too simplistic an answer.

Wales was under English rule for a similar period, and they are also a Celtic people. Yet Wales fully embraced Protestantism. The Welsh did not love the English any more than the Irish. There was nothing like the Plantation in Wales, but that was a consequence of Irish reticence to convert, so was frankly not needed.
There is a famous anecdote where De Valera spoke to David Lloyd George on the oppression of the 'English' and the latter suddenly started chattering to his secretary in Welsh. He then turned to the confused De Valera and said that the Irish weren't the only ones to have problems with the Sassenach, but the United Kingdom was hardly just 'the English'.

Portions of Ireland was under the English since the Norman conquest of Ireland under Marcher lords like William Strongbow. These had merged with the locals in like manner as they had in England. During the Reformation, we see almost the entire Irish aristocracy convert; the few that didn't eventually fled (such as the O'Neills during the Flight of the Earls) or were sidelined. Why didn't the people follow their example, for these weren't foreigners, but Irish Lords of Irish stock.
The Plantation and later Cromwell's harrowing, followed their failure to do so, as an attempt to force it or to insert a backboneof trustworthy Protestants within their midst. The Irish tendency to act as a Catholic Bogey that an usurper or Jacobyte claimant could count on, was the justification.

@Vicomte13 , the Israel/Palestine analogy is not a close one. The Ascendancy in Ireland was mostly Protestant, it is true, but not exclusively so. There were Catholics and Jews within it as well, and both sides saw the other as Irish. In fact, Protestant Irish started the calls for Home Rule in the 19th century.
Catholics served in British regiments, as Governors of Colonies and Generals, and ethnically Irish played a significant part in the British Empire - Wellington, who became Prime Minister, was Irish after all.
Ireland was largely peaceful from the Boyne till the Easter uprising in 1915, barring a few minor uprisings such as 1743.
The memory of Drogheda and such certainly played a role, and the Irish will never love the English, but the situation was radically different than modern Palestine. For one thing, Catholics had much the same individual position and after Catholic Emancipation could have the same offices as any Protestant.

To me, blaming it on ethnicity or opposition to England, fails to explain why Ireland did not Initially convert, when England did. We have examples like the Welsh who were in a similar position, yet did convert, and whose Protestantism then took different turns. Much of later English oppression of the Irish, such as the Plantations, were a consequence of their failure to convert and support for Catholic claiments, not the root cause thereof.

I will be more plain then. BEFORE the Ulster Planatation, Ireland was like any other imperial province in Europe, more or less. Nowhere was there any democracy at all. They were not thinking in those terms at that time. Everybody had lords, and somewhere, an overlord king. Ethnicity was primarily a matter of language and local custom. Nationalism, as such was a thing of the future.

But starting in 1606, something very new and very bad, and very SPECIFIC occurred - and it wasn't the English who did it. The very bigoted (and very gay) Scottish King of England, James I, who had been James the what? VIth? of Scotland, authorized the Scots, specifically the Presbyterian Scots, his OWN people, to literally invade Ireland and to take land and establish themselves there. This was not like the Anglo-Normans, who came to establish their lordship, as essentially French rulers of England, now as rulers of Ireland also, when everybody was Catholic.

The Ulster Plantation was a Presbyterian Crusade in Ireland against heathen (which is to say, Catholic) Irish. It was carried out with extreme arrogance and extreme violence, and it provoked an extremely violent response from the native Irish that hemmed in the Presbyterian invaders into one corner of Ireland.

The fighting never ended, the hatred never ended. THAT is the analogy to Israel. A bunch of Jews showed up from somewhere else with what was to them a completely valid claim to the land and what was to the existing residents a wholly spurious claim, and they won part of the land by conquest. The hatred between Jews and Muslim Arabs in the conquered lands WAS total, and it still IS total, because the Jews came in and attacked and took, and the Arabs fought back bloodily.

That's what happened in Ireland. The Irish distaste for the English comes from what happened later with Cromwell's Puritan Army - but that was, again, another Calvinist army that came in and murdered people because they were Catholic. The Presbyterian Scots did that too, with the authority and blessing of the King.

THAT is where the bitter, unyielding hatred came from, and why there was no hope of conversion. The Protestants came into Ireland as conquering murderers seeking to take the land, and treating the Irish as heathen Indians whose lands could be plundered rightly. They weren't there to CONVERT the Irish Catholics. They were there to KILL them and expropriate them. They were doing in Ireland what the Europeans were doing in America, and justifying it by their rabid belief that Catholicism was the religion of the devil.

The Catholics replied with equal hatred, and they held the conquerors to one province. Cromwell came and took another bite at the apple a few decades later, under the same bloody flag of conquering Calvinist Protestantism.

Irish Catholics hate Calvinism and hate Presbyterianism. They hate it the way that Indians who were murdered by European conquerors hated their conquerors, the way that black slaves hated their conquerors, and the way that Arabs hate their Jewish conquerors.

And the difference is that the Jews didn't really hate the Arabs when they came - they were in the WAY. And the Spanish didn't really hate the Indians - they were trying to convert them.

The Presbyterian Scots came into Ireland not to convert them, but to murder them and take their land and property. There was no love and no pretense of love, no "missionary work". It was "TO hell or to Connaught". The Irish Catholic response was, and is, a belief that the Presbyterians were Satan's little helpers, to be fought to the death. They murdered family, without any remorse, and it would have been best if they had all been pushed back into the sea and drowned.

The hatred of Irish Catholics towards Presbyterianism in particular is due to the way that the Presbyterian Scots, and then Cromwell's puritans, came into Ireland to kill. As far as the Irish Catholics are concerned, the Protestantism THEY encountered were murdering Nazis. There is no room in the Irish Catholic mind for the slightest room for any sort of intellectual sympathy for the evil that Calvinism wrought in their lands.

We hate you because you are Nazis. And because you slaughtered us because we were Catholics, we view you the same way that Jews view Nazis, and Palestinians view Jews: Protestantism in Ireland came to murder us all, and we had to defeat it, even though we were weak and poor peasants who just wanted to be left alone.

That's why Protestantism never had, and never will have, any chance of taking root in Ireland: its history was so violent and bloody and inexcusable - and the Irish Catholics will NOT see it your way, not ever, you have to see it THEIR way (and you won't, not ever). Ireland may go secular. It may go Muslim. It may stay a weak and flabby nominally Catholic. But there has been far too much bloodshed and horror that affected every single family in Ireland for the Irish to EVER consider adopting the religion of their murderers.

It will never ever happen, because of the way that the Presbyterians and Puritans conducted themselves in Ireland.

If the Palestinian example does not suit you, perhaps the example of the Cathars in Southern France in the Albigensian Crusade is a better one. There, the Catholics, under the auspices of the French Crown, completely wiped out an entire religious movement. They did so with fire, sword and expropriation. There was no mercy or understanding for the Cathars. It was in that war that the expression was actually uttered: "Kill them all. God will know His own." In other words "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."

The French Catholics WON the Albigensian Crusade. They succeeded in wiping the heretics and their beliefs from the face of the earth.

The Presbyterian Scots and Calvinists failed in their military efforts against Irish Catholicism. They killed a lot of people, and bereaved the entire nation in the process. The Irish were rebellious after that, and the English kept intervening to restore their rule, which reopened the wounds each generation.

With the English gone, it became possible to rationally deal with the English, but the Presbyterian/Catholic hatred and bloodshed continued until only about a decade ago, and could explode forth again.

That's why: the pot was utterly poisoned, and the Catholics do not forgive and do not forget all of their sufferings, and who did it to them, and why.

Unfortunately, it's not very pleasant to hear that, so people generally don't say it directly. But sometimes being direct is necessary to get the point across.

I don't think I can be more direct than that. And that is the real answer to your question.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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@Vicomte13

All that you have said, does not answer the question of the thread. It explains perhaps why post-plantation Ireland never became Protestant, but not its initial reticence to do so.

England, Ireland and Wales all underwent Henry VIII's split from Rome, Dissolution, Edward VI's Protestant regime, Mary I's swing back to Rome and Elizabeth's return to Protestantism. England and Wales became Protestant, Ireland did not. This was before the most harsh treatment of the Irish and the Welsh underwent similar treatment at the hands of the English, yet became Protestant as well. So why Ireland was still Catholic for the Plantation to look like a good idea, is very much still open for debate.

Anyway, your characterisation is not a very nuanced, historical one. As I said, Irish Catholics served the Crown in numerous posts. From the 1743 Jacobyte uprising till the Irish Civil War, we only find one other uprising, and this 1798 one was instigated by the French and was minor. There was a lot of civil disobedience, the Land War, towards the end of the 19th, but not this constant oppression and violence that you speak of. To equate it to Palestine or the Cathars is a bit much, for the English were quite cruel if they wanted to be. They forced my ancestors into concentration camps, so if what you describe had happened in Ireland in a sustained manner, then no Irish would have remained. There were violent and cruel events, like Drogheda, but certainly not constantly nor to a high level. Ireland was treated as a normal part of the UK, albeit more agrarian and with unfair land distribution and tenantry arrangements, but not some restive conquered province that had to be held down by force. This is at least the impression that I have gleaned from my historical reading, but I shall look into the matter more closely when I have time.
 
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Vicomte13

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@Vicomte13

All that you have said, does not answer the question of the thread. It explains perhaps why post-plantation Ireland never became Protestant, but not its initial reticence to do so.

England, Ireland and Wales all underwent Henry VIII's split from Rome, Dissolution, Edward VI's Protestant regime, Mary I's swing back to Rome and Elizabeth's return to Protestantism. England and Wales became Protestant, Ireland did not. This was before the most harsh treatment of the Irish and the Welsh underwent similar treatment at the hands of the English, yet became Protestant as well. So why Ireland was still Catholic for the Plantation to look like a good idea, is very much still open for debate.

Anyway, your characterisation is not a very nuanced, historical one. As I said, Irish Catholics served the Crown in numerous posts. From the 1743 Jacobyte uprising till the Irish Civil War, we only find one other uprising, and this 1798 one was instigated by the French and was minor. There was a lot of civil disobedience, the Land War, towards the end of the 19th, but not this constant oppression and violence that you speak of. To equate it to Palestine or the Cathars is a bit much, for the English were quite cruel if they wanted to be. They forced my ancestors into concentration camps, so if what you describe had happened in Ireland in a sustained manner, then no Irish would have remained. There were violent and cruel events, like Drogheda, but certainly not constantly nor to a high level. Ireland was treated as a normal part of the UK, albeit more agrarian and with unfair land distribution and tenantry arrangements, but not some restive conquered province that had to be held down by force. This is at least the impression that I have gleaned from my historical reading, but I shall look into the matter more closely when I have time.

You need to not look at the English history. You need to look specifically at the history of the Scottish colonization of Catholic Ireland in the period of the Ulster Planation, under the Scottish king of the UK, not the English kings. The time period of the Irish revulsion starts in 1606. By the 1740s, you are in the era of the Hanoverians, who had no particular axe to grind with the Irish. The Irish, by that time, were grimly opposed to the English because of 136 years of history, but England cannot and should not be equated with Scots Presbyterianism. That is where the real violent history is.

As far as why Ireland didn't go Protestant in the first place, for the same reason as a place like Poland or
the Scottish Highlands - remote, rural, with people who were generally poor and a church that was itself generally poor. Continental Europe and England were relatively developed and sophisticated places where there were lots of cities and people with itching ears. Ireland was really rural, and really far from any center of power. Traditional, and happy with their religion. Why would they change?
 
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Mountainmike

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I suspect the answer lies in the fact that Henry VIII and QEI regarded ireland as an annoyance more than anything, and they were keen not to make it more of a trouble spot than it already was, fearing that overtly anticatholic actions would push catholics firmly into the hands of those that opposed england.
So even though both sent armies, they were opposing powerful family chiefs, and would rather it sunk in the sea than have it continue to be a problem. Neither seem to regard it as a land of opportunity, and both would have preferred to ignore it.

They were far more concerned about insurrection at home, not least when the spat with Rome obliged catholics to oppose the state under QEI seen as a direct threat. Or so I recollect of history. So england was a far more hostile place for overt catholicism than ireland.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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As far as why Ireland didn't go Protestant in the first place, for the same reason as a place like Poland or
the Scottish Highlands - remote, rural, with people who were generally poor and a church that was itself generally poor. Continental Europe and England were relatively developed and sophisticated places where there were lots of cities and people with itching ears. Ireland was really rural, and really far from any center of power. Traditional, and happy with their religion. Why would they change?
Actually, Poland-Lithuania was a hotbed of the Reformation. There were strong Lutheran elements amongst the towns, Calvinist nobles and a creeping Socinianism in more rural areas. Only a sustained campaign of Counter-Reformation over 200 years with extensive Jesuit involvement, via schooling and such, brought Poland back into the Catholic fold. The Sejm granted religious toleration early on because of this, and the Catholic monarchs took quite some time before they could force it to backtrack, such as making it illegal for a Catholic to convert, for instance.
The 'remote, rural' theory also does not really fit Scandinavia's Protestant conversion, especially Norway, which was under Sweden at the time. It may perhaps have played a part in Ireland and the Highlands, though likely there is more to it than that.

EDIT: Correction.
Norway was under Denmark at the time, not Sweden, following the break-up of the Kalmar union. Norway was under the Swedish monarch later though, in the 19th.
 
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Vicomte13

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Actually, Poland-Lithuania was a hotbed of the Reformation. There were strong Lutheran elements amongst the towns, Calvinist nobles and a creeping Socinianism in more rural areas. Only a sustained campaign of Counter-Reformation over 200 years with extensive Jesuit involvement, via schooling and such, brought Poland back into the Catholic fold. The Sejm granted religious toleration early on because of this, and the Catholic monarchs took quite some time before they could force it to backtrack, such as making it illegal for a Catholic to convert, for instance.
The 'remote, rural' theory also does not really fit Scandinavia's Protestant conversion, especially Norway, which was under Sweden at the time. It may perhaps have played a part in Ireland and the Highlands, though likely there is more to it than that.

Ok, well, then the Irish are simply smart people who recognized the truth and believed it, and therefore were not tempted by the errors of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and Henry VIII. They stood pat with what they knew to be true, like the Italians. That's why the Reformation got nowhere there at start.

Any chance that it had to take root after that was killed by the violence of the Ulster Plantation and Cromwell, just as any chance of reconciliation of the Irish with English rule in general likewise passed after that brutality and all of the measures of oppression that followed.

By the 1800s the Irish aversion to English rule became known as "The Irish Repugnance". John Stuart Mill wrote in "England and Ireland", in 1868:

"The difficulty of governing Ireland lies entirely in our own minds; it is an incapability of understanding. If there is anything sadder than the calamity itself, it is the unmistakeable sincerity and good faith with which numbers of Englishmen confess themselves incapable of comprehending it. They know not that the disaffection which neither has no needs any other motive than aversion to her rulers, is the climax to a long growth of disaffection arising from causes that might have been removed. What seems to them the causelessness of the Irish repugnance to our rule, is the proof that they have almost let pass the last opportunity they are ever likely to have of setting it right. They have allowed what was once indignation against particular wrongs to harden into a passionate determination to be no longer ruled by those to whom they ascribe all their evils."

Protestantism came into England as a foreign influence, and it came in by way of the English, first, where it held no particular appeal to the people, so it didn't get anywhere. Why would it? It never got anywhere among the Orthodox either, and who were more orthodox Catholic than the Irish? When it came back around in the 1600s, it came as an (attempted) conqueror. It gained only a foothold in the north, failing to conquer the rest of the nation and in fact uniting it against it. Cromwell merely extended and deepened the hate with his barbarism.

As late as the 19th and 20th Centuries the English were perplexed at why the Irish wanted nothing to do with their rule, and wanted them to leave.

It's not hard to see. Protestantism offered the Irish nothing they didn't already have, and it was an idea that was being brought into them by bad people they didn't trust anyway. The Scots and the English then came under a flag of religious crusade and behaved like bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no excuse whatever for what King James and then Cromwell did in Ireland. That turned the initial "No thanks" to conversion into a permanent and deep-seated disgust with Protestantism on the part of the Catholic Irish. English rule thereafter did the rest of it.

Ireland was the most poorly digested lump in the constellation of British possessions, and in the modern era it was the first one out, exiting even at the moment of the British Empire's greatest power and greatest extent: after the fall of Imperial Germany and British victory in World War I.

It's just not that hard to understand.

Start with: why would the Irish want Protestantism in the first place? Why would they abandon their faith?

Then step forward through the ridiculous parade of atrocities and obscenities perpetrated against them, and it should not be hard to see why the Irish mind is as closed to Protestantism (and British rule in general) as the Baptist mind is to becoming Muslim. Why would any Irishman have chosen to become Protestant, at any point? People don't abandon what works for them. They abandon what doesn't work.
 
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Albion

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Ok, well, then the Irish are simply smart people who recognized the truth and believed it, and therefore were not tempted by the errors of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and Henry VIII. They stood pat with what they knew to be true, like the Italians. That's why the Reformation got nowhere there at start.
What a charming thesis--that these people were so much smarter than all the other peoples of the world and were not at least partially influenced by history, culture, national pride, geography, and such other factors. :rolleyes:
 
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Vicomte13

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What a charming thesis--that these people were so much smarter than all the other peoples of the world and were not at least partially influenced by history, culture, national pride, geography, and such other factors. :rolleyes:

"Most of the other people in the world" did not become Protestant. Most of the Christians in the world who started out Catholic, stayed Catholic. It was mostly Germanics who went Protestant - last into the Church, first out.

"Albion" - ah yes, good old England. So, why is it, England, that the Irish were uninterested in adopting your religion? I've told you why: they had no reason to when it was suggested in the first place, and then the Scots Presbyterians and the English in general invaded Ireland violently and behaved in such a way as to make the Irish practically univocally hate your living guts. That's the REASON that Ireland isn't Protestant: wasn't interested at the first go, and totally rejected violent conquest and conversion.

What alternative truth do YOU have to offer, England? The Irish DID completely reject your religion, and you. The OP was wondering why. I tried to say it delicately, but that didn't seem to work. So I said so bluntly, and that still got challenged. Now I'm saying it loudly: We rejected you and your religion because you are hateful, arrogant people who invaded us and killed us. Got it? That's WHY. Your religion is false, and your method of suggesting it was brutal and evil.

That's why we didn't become Protestant. The Ulster is half Protestant because you violently expelled us and partially replaced us there with Scots. The Presbyterians of Scotland are descended from Scottish invaders of the Ulster Plantation era, not because Irish Catholics were ever convinced, in any way, by your religion or your arms.

You want to mock? Go ahead. But I've answered the question three times now. And this forth one is the freebie, just for you.

Now YOU go ahead and tell us why we rejected your religion and your rule, England!
This should be good.

DO proceed...
 
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Albion

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"Most of the other people in the world" did not become Protestant.
What I said was not that, but instead that it is unlikely that the Irish stand out from all the other peoples of the world by being unaffected by such factors as ethnic pride, language, geography, history, and etc.
 
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TheNorwegian

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The 'remote, rural' theory also does not really fit Scandinavia's Protestant conversion, especially Norway, which was under Sweden at the time

Norway was not under Sweden in the 1500s, but it is true that Norway was very rural at the time
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Norway was not under Sweden in the 1500s, but it is true that Norway was very rural at the time
My apologies, I was thinking of Denmark, as Norway remained under the Danish king after Sweden left the Kalmar Union.
 
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