Why did Protestantism mostly fail to take hold in Ireland?

[Quid est Veritas?]

Double post.

 

[FireDragon76]

Perhaps why English Catholicism dwindled into a minority, but not the Irish, is because so much of their countrymen had fallen in with Lollardy in the three centuries preceding the Reformation?

I think this a good hypothesis. Plus it does seem that poorer countries are naturally Catholic. Probably because Catholicism offers more rewards to poor people, and more justification to the elite overlords, than conventional Protestantism, which seems like a religious movement that was focused on "middle class values" and politics that were in their favor. In Germany it was the minor nobility and burgers that pushed Protestantism, whereas the emperors were Catholic.

With no native Protestant voices in Ireland, it was difficult for the evangelical faith to take hold there, certainly, it would appear as a foreign religion and be resisted.

 

[FireDragon76]

The modern context in Ireland is a good example of how the Protestant faith could take hold. People are genuinely angry at the Catholic Church and the country is looking for a more dynamic identity where a state church does not have an overwhelming influence on public life.

Protestants are relatively comfortable with secularism. Catholics? Not so much. Even the current Pope is allergic to secularism, he complains about "moral colonialism", for instance, by western countries who are doing nothing but insisting that their money not support anti-LGBT policies in countries such as the Philipines. He has a problem with a world where Christianity is just a polyphonic counterpoint rather than a melody.

Bono is a good example of this sort of Irish Christianity that I could see spreading. He's obviously a Christian: his parents were Protestant and Catholic respectively, and he isn't committed to an institutional vision of Christianity that imposes itself on public life. It's a more humanistic take on being a follower of Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Look closely and you will see that 1) England was first to cast off Roman Catholicism. In succession, every other part of the British Isles, in succession, took up some other faith (other than Anglicanism, that is) as an expression of their own ethnic and regional pride. 2) Scotland threw out the Anglicans in favor of Presbyterianism. 3) Wales took up Methodism. And 4) Ireland--which had been known for religious laxity prior to the Reformation--became newly ardent about its Roman Catholicism as an expression of opposition to the English...and the Scots...for reasons that are well known and which other posters have already mentioned.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Today is the Glorious 12th of July, the anniversary of the battle of the Boyne, the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day. This is when Orange orders stage marches in honour of their Protestantism and their forebears.

Why though is Ireland not Protestant today and Catholicism so closely associated to Irishness by most?

For Ireland was under English rule, Henry VIII was their king, and it underwent all the same things that occurred in England. Its monasteries were dissolved, its parishes and clergy became Protestant, there was strong pressure from above to convert...

Yet it didn't. Later the Plantations and successive English governments failed to do so as well. Importing Protestant Scots, giving land to Huguenots, sending fiery puritan preachers amongst them, persecuting priests, all of this failed to shift their allegiance.

After the independance of the Republic of Ireland, Protestantism went into steep decline there, from about 10% to 3% of the populace. Ulster Protestants sought protection in Unionism it seems, from the then Catholic state to the South.

What has caused this Catholic persistence against years of attempts, that had been so succesful in Germany, Britain and Scandinavia? Usually the people eventually followed their leaders, like France or Poland that returned to the catholic fold. Ireland is the exception.

Was it the fact that the prayer book wasn't in Gaelic? Most eventually started speaking English anyway and later gaelic preaching was undertaken.
Was it the fact that the English were their overlords, a piece of opposition? This made no difference in other countries and a strong Anglo-Norman Irish aristocracy initially sided with Protestantism.
Was it the many continentally trained Irish priests that snuck into the country? This same strategy failed dismally in England.
Is it something in the Irish character? Some Celtic trait? For the Highlanders of Scotland also stayed mostly Catholic, but the Welsh did not.

It is an interesting problem, probably multifactorial, but quite odd.

William Daniel William Daniel (bishop) - Wikipedia and others did indeed translate the Bible into Irish.

But mainly the clergy associated with Trinity College preferred to rest in their now former legal privileges and speak English.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Look closely and you will see that 1) England was first to cast off Roman Catholicism. In succession, every other part of the British Isles, in succession, took up some other faith (other than Anglicanism, that is) as an expression of their own ethnic and regional pride. 2) Scotland threw out the Anglicans in favor of Presbyterianism. 3) Wales took up Methodism. And 4) Ireland--which had been known for religious laxity prior to the Reformation--became newly ardent about its Roman Catholicism as an expression of opposition to the English...and the Scots...for reasons that are well known and which other posters have already mentioned.

While I agree with the gist you are saying here, I think it more complicated. Wales spent a long time as Protestants until the Methodist Revival in the 18th century separated it from England. The Welsh didn't suddenly then develop a hatred of the Sassenach, so other factors are at play. Likely a major one would be their culture and perhaps opposition to English dominance, I agree. If it was merely opposition to England, I would think that Catholicism would have remained strong in Wales as well, but the heart of Catholicism in the English realm was Yorkshire.

Scotland underwent an independent Reformation from that of England; they did not 'throw out' the Anglicans. In fact, the attempts to make them conform to it precipitated the Bishops War, which led to Charles I calling a new parliament and the English Civil War. During that war, England very nearly conformed to Scotland under the Solemn League and Covenant. Scotland chose its own Church, which just happened not to be the same as the English one, but they both settled on their respective models at about the same time and Scotland was not then dominated by the English, but an independent country in close alignment to France.

 

[makeajoyfulnoise100]

If you think about it, Celtic religion is really polytheistic and though Catholicism doesn't claim it's polytheistic, it has appreciation for ancestors (saints), prayers to Mary (whom would replace rituals to Danu but still get that mothering feeling), and has enough symbolism and mysticism to make an easier transition from Celtic religion to Catholicism. But that's just my theory.

 

[Archivist]

FireDragon76 called it right--Protestantism was seen as the religion of the outsiders. Importing Protestant Scots, giving land to Huguenots, sending puritan preachers, and persecuting priests are not how you go about winning over hearts and souls.

 

[Albion]

Scotland underwent an independent Reformation from that of England; they did not 'throw out' the Anglicans. .

They did almost literally throw them out of St. Giles.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is why it is such a mystery.

(for outside 'research'.... if desired)
I think Ireland was once a strong country in true faith in Christ Jesus,
and that made it a primary target of the enemy,
'obviously',
and, not so obviously, resulted in its decline and probably demise along with the rest of the world (most other nations)....

 

[Vicomte13]

I can give you a real Irish perspective on this one. Yes, I mostly identify as French (from different parts of France), but I'm also Irish, from both sides going back - my father was Orange, me mother was Green (with some Orange roots in there too, way, way back).

And my French wife got her degree in English from the Sorbonne, with a Master's degree specifically in Irish literature and culture, for which she wrote the thesis her very Irish Catholic advisor asked her to write, about Protestant Irish immigration to America. For two years of my life I ended up involuntarily immersed in the Ulster Plantation, the 18th Century English Breaking of Ulster (through taxes and regulations that destroyed the textiles industry there and drove the Protestants to America).

Thanks to her, I got to understand what drove the Protestants INTO Ireland in the first place, the effect that had there, and then what drove them OUT of Ireland onto the American frontier...and why the Scotch-Irish (the correct term - they're not Scots, they self-identified as Scotch-Irish - modern revisionism and preferences try to alter that, but the Scots-Irish would correctly be the Scots of the Ulster Plantation IN Ireland, while the Scotch-Irish would be the immigrants to America from Ulster many generations later) were such good Indian fighters.

I can give you a pretty deep perspective on why the Catholic Irish did not convert, but it's a pretty bruising period of history.

You can understand it best by a modern analogy. Ask yourself this question: Why don't the West Bank Palestinians just convert to Judaism?

That's pretty easy to answer it, isn't it? Different culture. Different race. Different base religions founded on different a priori. A long and dire history of incredible bloodshed and inveterate mutual hatred, religious and ethnic.

The Catholic Irish might slump into atheism over time with the rest of Europe. Conversion to Protestantism would be treason.

The Irish Presbyterians are more likely to become atheists or Jews than Catholic. Conversion to Catholicism would be the ultimate treason.

The reflexive hatred is non-linear. It's Jews and Palestinians. And for the exact same reason.

 

[GingerBeer]

Today is the Glorious 12th of July, the anniversary of the battle of the Boyne, the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day.

How does a battle where hundreds or thousands of men died in a fight about who was to be the king of England, Scotland, wales, and Ireland become glorious? Worldly rulers often go to war to gain power or to take it away from another. Wars like that are not glorious. They are a sure sign of the deeply wicked works of men who lord it over others. If such is in your view "the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day" then how impoverished that view is. Saint Patrick's day commemorates the good works of saint Patrick as one of God's saints. It cannot be compared to a day commemorating a bloody battle between worldly kings and their armies.

 

[staffsgt7]

I am not so secure in the throught of Ireland's Christianity anymore. I saw an interview with 3 Irish people and they mentioned that they are now sharia compliant and their government passed blasphemy laws. And that means the ideology of islam cannot be criticized - it usually never applies to Christianity nor Judaism, or any other religion. (I don't put islam in the category of religion anymore when I speak/write because it is more politics with the verbage and rites of religion around it to hide its true intentions).

 

[Vicomte13]

How does a battle where hundreds or thousands of men died in a fight about who was to be the king of England, Scotland, wales, and Ireland become glorious? Worldly rulers often go to war to gain power or to take it away from another. Wars like that are not glorious. They are a sure sign of the deeply wicked works of men who lord it over others. If such is in your view "the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day" then how impoverished that view is. Saint Patrick's day commemorates the good works of saint Patrick as one of God's saints. It cannot be compared to a day commemorating a bloody battle between worldly kings and their armies.

More than that, to the Orange, it represents the day that Protestantism triumphed over Catholicism in Ireland. THAT'S why it is celebrated so much.

To understand the Catholic Protestant divide in Ireland, all you need to do is look at Israel and Palestine. One people invaded and conquered another people, for a religious motivation. The conquered people refused to ever reconcile with their conquerors, for having no state, their religion (and ethnicity) is their banner of resistance. In a religious age, the two become inextricable.

 

[Vicomte13]

I am not so secure in the throught of Ireland's Christianity anymore. I saw an interview with 3 Irish people and they mentioned that they are now sharia compliant and their government passed blasphemy laws. And that means the ideology of islam cannot be criticized - it usually never applies to Christianity nor Judaism, or any other religion. (I don't put islam in the category of religion anymore when I speak/write because it is more politics with the verbage and rites of religion around it to hide its true intentions).

And you shouldn't be. Moment of truth: the European and white population everywhere is imploding, including Ireland. This is due to birth control and the death of marriage. Immigrants are having the babies.

The future of America is to become Los Estados Unidos Norte-Americanas.
The future of Europe is Sharia 2060.

If whites do not have babies again, nothing can stop this.
Nothing.
And whites do not speak of having babies again as though it is even possible.

Looking farther out, Catholicism and Islam will divide the world. But Catholicism is fading in Latin America also.

Christians bicker with each other, and Left and Right bicker with each other. And Europeans and Americans bicker with each other. But demography is destiny.

"Reproduce! Increase! Fill the land and subdue it!" These are the first four commandments God gave to mankind at creation.

In the end, the people who obey the primary commandment to reproduce and fill the land will rule the land. The Muslims will probably conquer Europe for that very reason - and it will be in fulfillment of God's directive. (Not because Islam is true, but because Muslims are following the prime directive of God regarding reproduction, and Europeans are not.)

 

[Lazarus Short]

The answer in in the pages of the novel Angela's Ashes, where [IIRC] it was said, "...what you English did to us for 800 long years!"

 

[Sine Nomine]

Irish Americans - Wikipedia

Irish Americans today are predominantly Protestant with a Catholic minority. The Protestants' ancestors arrived primarily in the colonial era, while Catholics are primarily descended from immigrants of the 19th century. Irish leaders have been prominent in the Catholic Church in the United States for over 150 years. The Irish have been leaders in the Presbyterian and Methodisttraditions, as well.[97]

Surveys in the 1990s show that of Americans who identify themselves as "Irish", 51% said they were Protestant and 36% identified as Catholic. In the South, Protestants account for 73% of those claiming Irish origins, while Catholics account for 19%. It is common for Protestant Scotch-Irish Americans to call themselves "Irish", in particular because most immigration to colonial America was of Protestant settlers, so there was no need to distinguish themselves from Irish Catholics. In the North, 45% of those claiming Irish origin are Catholic, while 39% are Protestant.[97]

The "Scotch-Irish" actually refers to a group of Northern Irish (from England (probably northern) originally and Scots and English along the border of Scotland and England that share overlapping cultures). So the "Irish" of colonial America were Protestants, like their compatriots in England and Scotland.

Curiously, Northern England, particularly Durham county, has a medieval history of being largely independent of the crown (owing to distance and powerful Bishops), while Scots to the north were largely distrusting and dismissive of the crown. This may help explain why Protestantism was popular in the North, Presbyterianism in particular, with important distinctions from Catholic and Anglican government. Many of the leading names of colonial America were from Durham county, including the Washingtons.

Interesting thread!

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

How does a battle where hundreds or thousands of men died in a fight about who was to be the king of England, Scotland, wales, and Ireland become glorious? Worldly rulers often go to war to gain power or to take it away from another. Wars like that are not glorious. They are a sure sign of the deeply wicked works of men who lord it over others. If such is in your view "the Protestant version of St. Patrick's day" then how impoverished that view is. Saint Patrick's day commemorates the good works of saint Patrick as one of God's saints. It cannot be compared to a day commemorating a bloody battle between worldly kings and their armies.

Its called "the Glorious 12th", because William III won in spite of being outnumbered and as an allusion to the Glorious Revolution.

It is a shame though, that St. Patrick's day has become a druken revel that would have the old saint rolling in his grave.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The problem of blaming it all on 'English Oppression', is that it doesn't hold water. It probably played a part, but is far too simplistic an answer.

Wales was under English rule for a similar period, and they are also a Celtic people. Yet Wales fully embraced Protestantism. The Welsh did not love the English any more than the Irish. There was nothing like the Plantation in Wales, but that was a consequence of Irish reticence to convert, so was frankly not needed.
There is a famous anecdote where De Valera spoke to David Lloyd George on the oppression of the 'English' and the latter suddenly started chattering to his secretary in Welsh. He then turned to the confused De Valera and said that the Irish weren't the only ones to have problems with the Sassenach, but the United Kingdom was hardly just 'the English'.

Portions of Ireland was under the English since the Norman conquest of Ireland under Marcher lords like William Strongbow. These had merged with the locals in like manner as they had in England. During the Reformation, we see almost the entire Irish aristocracy convert; the few that didn't eventually fled (such as the O'Neills during the Flight of the Earls) or were sidelined. Why didn't the people follow their example, for these weren't foreigners, but Irish Lords of Irish stock.
The Plantation and later Cromwell's harrowing, followed their failure to do so, as an attempt to force it or to insert a backboneof trustworthy Protestants within their midst. The Irish tendency to act as a Catholic Bogey that an usurper or Jacobyte claimant could count on, was the justification.

@Vicomte13 , the Israel/Palestine analogy is not a close one. The Ascendancy in Ireland was mostly Protestant, it is true, but not exclusively so. There were Catholics and Jews within it as well, and both sides saw the other as Irish. In fact, Protestant Irish started the calls for Home Rule in the 19th century.
Catholics served in British regiments, as Governors of Colonies and Generals, and ethnically Irish played a significant part in the British Empire - Wellington, who became Prime Minister, was Irish after all.
Ireland was largely peaceful from the Boyne till the Easter uprising in 1915, barring a few minor uprisings such as 1743.
The memory of Drogheda and such certainly played a role, and the Irish will never love the English, but the situation was radically different than modern Palestine. For one thing, Catholics had much the same individual position and after Catholic Emancipation could have the same offices as any Protestant.

To me, blaming it on ethnicity or opposition to England, fails to explain why Ireland did not Initially convert, when England did. We have examples like the Welsh who were in a similar position, yet did convert, and whose Protestantism then took different turns. Much of later English oppression of the Irish, such as the Plantations, were a consequence of their failure to convert and support for Catholic claiments, not the root cause thereof.

 

[GingerBeer]

Its called "the Glorious 12th", because William III won in spite of being outnumbered and as an allusion to the Glorious Revolution.

It is a shame though, that St. Patrick's day has become a druken revel that would have the old saint rolling in his grave.

Isn't "glorious revolution" propaganda? The truth is that James II of England was Catholic and Parliament would not tolerate having a Catholic king so they offered the crown to a member of the House of Orange in the Netherlands. It was not a bloodless revolution. Many thousands died at the hand of William and the rebellious Parliament. It was in fact yet another civil war in England. There was nothing glorious about it for Christians.