Why did Pope Francis restrict the ancient Latin Mass?

[mourningdove~]

The way of Christ is the way of the cross. His teaching:

No wonder "few" find HIs way - many reject or avoid it preferring the "easy". I.e. "Have a nice day!" It is a struggle to find Truth: but those who seek it, will find it.

The gate is indeed narrow, and the way is hard.
But we do not need do it alone; we do it in union with Christ.

Our trials and tribulations make us stronger in Him, if we persevere and do not lose faith.

I could never have done this life, without Him. I'm not being humble in saying that; it is just truth. Which is why I get so passionate about things, like the TLM, that does help many ... like me ... to walk closer in union with Him.

... but this discussion does seem to be offending some, so I'm pretty done here.

"God bless"

 

[bekalc]

Your questions have stuck with me ...
that's why I like your posts, because they often inspire me to think more deeply, even long after I first read them.

So I get concerned, too, for how persons sometimes behave before ... and during ... and after the Mass.
It looks like they don't understand the significance of what is, and has, just happened.
Like they don't understand or believe that they've just had an encounter with God.
Concerning, yep it can be.

While many Christians are indeed carnal ...
and many just don't seem to 'grasp' some things yet ...
we still do live in a fallen world.

Sometimes, maybe often, persons are distracted from the Mass by the cares and worries of this world.

And honestly? I think the brains of many persons today are just not always 'working right'. Example: Some mental health conditions make it hard for persons to maintain 'focus' ... other conditions cause mood swings that can make for sudden changes in behaviors, if the moods aren't regulated well. So, with some conditions, we just will see inconsistency in behavior.

I find it is not always easy in this world to 'abide' in Christ, as I would like to. I love the TLM for the focus, for that hour, that it puts on Christ. My hope, in whatever he may choose to do with the liturgy, is that Pope Leo will be used of God to bring some healthy stability, and right focus, back into the Catholic church world, TLM or not.

I am hoping.

Of course I chose to come into this thread. But I was more saying how frustrating I find the tone of Traditionalists of some of the Rad Trads.

Maybe I need to make clear. I like history. I like the idea of seeing how my ancestors worshipped. I really want to see different Eastern Catholic rites. I mean Maronite is in language Jesus spoke.

I have gotten something out of Charismatic Mass. Something out of regular NO mass, something reverent mass, something out of Spanish etc.

I enjoy the Anglican Ordinate a TON.

So I don't mind the idea of Latin Mass or people preferring the Tridentine Mass I would feel no need to be upset or get into a liturgy war over.

But it feels like when I talk to TLM people 90% of the times its all about how deficient the NO is and how people they don't know and whose hearts they can't judge gets out of the Mass.

Its to the point of questioning the Church's authority and it makes me really sad.

I went once and the general attitudes made me want to certainly not go back again even though I have happily gone and will go to Anglican Ordinate again.

I am actually really worried when I see all this because I fear its going to lead folks out of the Church.

 

[Lady Bug]

The irony of the heated nature of this thread is that the people here reject Pope Francis' reasons for restricting the Latin Mass - - and yet, the very reasons he had done it is running totally amok in this thread, lol. The division, that is. See, this makes Pope Francis look correct!

 

[mourningdove~]

The irony of the heated nature of this thread is that the people here reject Pope Francis' reasons for restricting the Latin Mass - - and yet, the very reasons he had done it is running totally amok in this thread, lol. The division, that is. See, this makes Pope Francis look correct!

And you can say that, and mean that, and maybe even find the disagreement in this thread to be amusing, but reality is ... have you ever been to a TLM? Have you ever known anything other than the NO? I'm thinking not, and so your experience with this subject is very limited.

Pope Francis has had much to do with the strife that presently exists on this issue. He took drastic, harsh measures to work to eliminate the TLM. He was not kind or thoughtful about it.

And Pope Francis also said some very uncharitable things about those who prefer the TLM ... He said that those who attend the Latin Mass are "rigid" and "mentally imbalanced".

Do you not see cause for strife in any of that????

You were not around ... even born ... lol ... when Vatican II was used to change the course of the Church. Be glad for it. You will never know what you are missing. But some of us here? We do know.

 

[mourningdove~]

Of course I chose to come into this thread. But I was more saying how frustrating I find the tone of Traditionalists of some of the Rad Trads.

Maybe I need to make clear. I like history. I like the idea of seeing how my ancestors worshipped. I really want to see different Eastern Catholic rites. I mean Maronite is in language Jesus spoke.

I have gotten something out of Charismatic Mass. Something out of regular NO mass, something reverent mass, something out of Spanish etc.

I enjoy the Anglican Ordinate a TON.

So I don't mind the idea of Latin Mass or people preferring the Tridentine Mass I would feel no need to be upset or get into a liturgy war over.

But it feels like when I talk to TLM people 90% of the times its all about how deficient the NO is and how people they don't know and whose hearts they can't judge gets out of the Mass.

Its to the point of questioning the Church's authority and it makes me really sad.

I went once and the general attitudes made me want to certainly not go back again even though I have happily gone and will go to Anglican Ordinate again.

I am actually really worried when I see all this because I fear its going to lead folks out of the Church.

I think TLM discussions in this forum only make for bad feelings between forum members.

I will say that when these discussions become so heated ... and people ... not just yourself ... start posting about how 'sick' they are of these discussions ... I think something needs to be done. (Ban the TLM discussions, or reopen the Trad forum.)

I see alot of stuff posted in this forum. Alot of it I'm not interested in at all. But do I go into those threads and say that I am sickened by what people are posting? No. That kind of disgust does not reside in my heart towards my sisters and brothers in Christ, even when I disagree with them or don't agree with what they are posting.

That you feel sad ... that you feel fear ... those are relatable feelings. I'm hoping there won't be a schism over all of this. My generation ... boomer here ... just took Church decisions in stride. Maybe a small remnant sought to fight things, but most just either continued on in obedience ... or left the Church ... missing what was taken away.

But the current Trad generation? These younger folks, many with families, that are longing some return to Tradition? I don't believe they will just sit back like us Baby Boomers did, and 'be obedient'. This newer generation of Trads? I think they are prepared to fight to the end ... even if that end means schism.

Young people of today are not so willing to put up with what the Baby Boomer generation did.
I do hope that Pope Leo will do something to help end this strife.

As for my part in all of this? I suppose I can resist the temptation to participate in future TLM threads that are started in this forum. And then I will be no part to the strife.

 

[Michie]

TLM’s have pretty much been banned. The last thing we need is a banning of discussion of the TLM. People are going to say things that we disagree with but we are all Catholics and we should be able to get past these things with some grace for one another. Not add more barriers.

 

[bekalc]

I think TLM discussions in this forum only make for bad feelings between forum members.

I will say that when these discussions become so heated ... and people ... not just yourself ... start posting about how 'sick' they are of these discussions ... I think something needs to be done. (Ban the TLM discussions, or reopen the Trad forum.)

I see alot of stuff posted in this forum. Alot of it I'm not interested in at all. But do I go into those threads and say that I am sickened by what people are posting? No. That kind of disgust does not reside in my heart towards my sisters and brothers in Christ, even when I disagree with them or don't agree with what they are posting.

That you feel sad ... that you feel fear ... those are relatable feelings. I'm hoping there won't be a schism over all of this. My generation ... boomer here ... just took Church decisions in stride. Maybe a small remnant sought to fight things, but most just either continued on in obedience ... or left the Church ... missing what was taken away.

But the current Trad generation? These younger folks, many with families, that are longing some return to Tradition? I don't believe they will just sit back like us Baby Boomers did, and 'be obedient'. This newer generation of Trads? I think they are prepared to fight to the end ... even if that end means schism.

Young people of today are not so willing to put up with what the Baby Boomer generation did.
I do hope that Pope Leo will do something to help end this strife.

As for my part in all of this? I suppose I can resist the temptation to participate in future TLM threads that are started in this forum. And then I will be no part to the strife.

I am super sorry? But do you realize that the baby boomers did fight the Church over Humane Vitae.
The baby boomers were fighting everything at the time.

. They majority didn't fight for TLM because they didn't mind the changes.

i mean this in the nicest way but you all keep talking about how you are the only ones with young famiies etc. I know a TON of devout Novus Ordo large families,

The Church I attend Mass has multiple Masses filled to the brink.

I came out of Protestantism. And a huge part of it is We are the remanent and we are breaking of to form the newer purer church.

It never works. And its we have 3k denominations.

At the end of the day I go where Peter and I listen to the magesterium is and submit to their judgment on the liturgy.

To do otherwise is to creafe chaos. It saddens me to see this not for my sake.

 

[fide]

The gate is indeed narrow, and the way is hard.
But we do not need do it alone; we do it in union with Christ.

Our trials and tribulations make us stronger in Him, if we persevere and do not lose faith.

I could never have done this life, without Him. I'm not being humble in saying that; it is just truth. Which is why I get so passionate about things, like the TLM, that does help many ... like me ... to walk closer in union with Him.

... but this discussion does seem to be offending some, so I'm pretty done here.

"God bless"

If you are led by Him to travel, go in peace. Our Lord said, "Let not your heart be troubled." But remember, Jesus was rejected and hated by many - among the Jews, the People "of God", and among the gentiles. And for one, as for one example, Jesus waited until His own little sheep was rejected by the world, and literally "out-synagogued", before He fully revealed Himself to him. (The man born blind, Jn 9)

Jn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of man?"
Jn 9:36 He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?"
Jn 9:37 Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you."
Jn 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe"; and he worshiped him.
Jn 9:39 Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
Jn 9:40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, "Are we also blind?"
Jn 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

Men often seek a "unity" blindly, but God knows the heart, and He knows His own.

 

[mourningdove~]

If you are led by Him to travel, go in peace. Our Lord said, "Let not your heart be troubled." But remember, Jesus was rejected and hated by many - among the Jews, the People "of God", and among the gentiles. And for one, as for one example, Jesus waited until His own little sheep was rejected by the world, and literally "out-synagogued", before He fully revealed Himself to him. (The man born blind, Jn 9)

Men often seek a "unity" blindly, but God knows the heart, and He knows His own.

That is a good word. Thank you.

I honestly don't come here to make trouble for folks, or to be a source of distress to anyone.

Until this morn, I've tried to figure why it is I feel this strong 'wall' of resentment come pushing towards me here, when I get to talking about the TLM just alittle too much. And then it occurred to me, that there are actually some here who lived thru the Vatican II changes and have remained in the RC ever since then. (Wow!) My story is quite different ... I was gone from the RC for decades following Vatican II, and it's only been in these last few years that I've come to understood the 'liturgy battle', and begun engaging in it. But for persons who've remained in the RC all these many years, they probably ARE sick of hearing about the TLM. What is new to me, has probably become very old to them. (I get that, now.)

I've been here online more than usual lately, because I injured myself badly last week and remain homebound because of it. I got this (not so) bright idea to take on some vigorous physical exercises, forgetting that I no longer live in a 35-year-old body! But my body quickly reminded me afterwards, and I've been in chronic pain since. Today is day 10 of the pain. I mention this because my posts here may have been sounding more 'edgy' than usual this week. If so, I'm sorry. It is some of the pain leaking out in my words.

There is presently no end in sight to this time of 'incapacitation'. My body needs 'rest' to recover, and recovery time is generally longer when we are older. I want to find ways to make this time of incapacitation more fruitful towards God. I have discovered that singing praise songs does help when the pain is severe. It takes the eyes off the pain, and upwards towards God. And if I can start focusing more on prayer and Bible reading ("abiding") as opposed to 'battling' on the internet ...lol ... I think that would be a healthy prescription for me.

If you are not opposed or offended to listen to what an SSPX person has to say on the subject at hand, I can recommend a YouTube video that Kennedy Hall put out yesterday. In it, he details ("predicts") how Pope Leo will lift restrictions on the TLM. It's really quite interesting, what he suggests. Here is the link to it:

 

[mourningdove~]

I am super sorry? But do you realize that the baby boomers did fight the Church over Humane Vitae.
The baby boomers were fighting everything at the time.

. They majority didn't fight for TLM because they didn't mind the changes.

i mean this in the nicest way but you all keep talking about how you are the only ones with young famiies etc. I know a TON of devout Novus Ordo large families,

The Church I attend Mass has multiple Masses filled to the brink.

I came out of Protestantism. And a huge part of it is We are the remanent and we are breaking of to form the newer purer church.

It never works. And its we have 3k denominations.

At the end of the day I go where Peter and I listen to the magesterium is and submit to their judgment on the liturgy.

To do otherwise is to creafe chaos. It saddens me to see this not for my sake.

I was not in the RC when Humane Vitae was introduced ...
and I did not know that boomers were being combative back then.
(Guess I'm not sad to have missed all of that!)

That you know 'a ton' of devout NO large families ... and that your Masses are 'filled to the brink' ... is very cool. It is very encouraging to hear. I don't know where in the world you are located, but I don't doubt there are pockets of faithfulness everywhere!

To remain faithfully in the Church during times of chaos and challenge is commendable. It is almost a supernatural grace. I'm glad things have gone well for you, and the many that you know. May the peace of Christ reign in your heart.

 

[Michie]

That is a good word. Thank you.

I honestly don't come here to make trouble for folks, or to be a source of distress to anyone.

Until this morn, I've tried to figure why it is I feel this strong 'wall' of resentment come pushing towards me here, when I get to talking about the TLM just alittle too much. And then it occurred to me, that there are actually some here who lived thru the Vatican II changes and have remained in the RC ever since then. (Wow!) My story is quite different ... I was gone from the RC for decades following Vatican II, and it's only been in these last few years that I've come to understood the 'liturgy battle', and begun engaging in it. But for persons who've remained in the RC all these many years, they probably ARE sick of hearing about the TLM. What is new to me, has probably become very old to them. (I get that, now.)

I've been here online more than usual lately, because I injured myself badly last week and remain homebound because of it. I got this (not so) bright idea to take on some vigorous physical exercises, forgetting that I no longer live in a 35-year-old body! But my body quickly reminded me afterwards, and I've been in chronic pain since. Today is day 10 of the pain. I mention this because my posts here may have been sounding more 'edgy' than usual this week. If so, I'm sorry. It is some of the pain leaking out in my words.

There is presently no end in sight to this time of 'incapacitation'. My body needs 'rest' to recover, and recovery time is generally longer when we are older. I want to find ways to make this time of incapacitation more fruitful towards God. I have discovered that singing praise songs does help when the pain is severe. It takes the eyes off the pain, and upwards towards God. And if I can start focusing more on prayer and Bible reading ("abiding") as opposed to 'battling' on the internet ...lol ... I think that would be a healthy prescription for me.

If you are not opposed or offended to listen to what an SSPX person has to say on the subject at hand, I can recommend a YouTube video that Kennedy Hall put out yesterday. In it, he details ("predicts") how Pope Leo will lift restrictions on the TLM. It's really quite interesting, what he suggests. Here is the link to it:

Praying you feel better soon mourningdove.

 

[mourningdove~]

Praying you feel better soon mourningdove.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[NextLevel]

And you can say that, and mean that, and maybe even find the disagreement in this thread to be amusing, but reality is ... have you ever been to a TLM? Have you ever known anything other than the NO? I'm thinking not, and so your experience with this subject is very limited.

My parish is a "TLM" parish (for lack of a better phrase). Right now it still celebrated multiple times a week with permission from Rome. The NO at the parish is also very "reverent" (in the sense use that is used to imply things like as communion on the tongue while kneeling, no female altar-servers, no Eucharistic ministers, Gregorian chant, ad-orientum, use of the Roman Canon, and so forth).

I love both, as well as other the various other NO Masses my diocese, the Eastern liturgies, etc. The way I look at it is that Jesus is right there in front of us at every Mass; which is amazing. I've never gone to a Mass without having witnessed something profound. So, I'm extremely grateful to be there in any case.

But all other things equal, if forced to choose between the two, I would attend the NO at my parish over the TLM. I think Pope Benedict was well-familiar with both (and seems to appreciate the TLM very much) but he never chose to celebrate it publicly as pope. I suspect that all of the other recent popes were familiar with the TLM too, but none of them chose to return the Church to that form.

So, it's not always the case that people who do not have a particular affinity for the TLM (as opposed to other forms) are ignorant or unfamiliar with it . . .

And Pope Francis also said some very uncharitable things about those who prefer the TLM ... He said that those who attend the Latin Mass are "rigid" and "mentally imbalanced".

Do you not see cause for strife in any of that????

I think that the media (and other even more diabolical forces) have a vested interest in sowing division. Whenever I go to mainstream or even Catholic news sites and see something reported, I try to look for the original video or a transcript of what was actually said. As far as Pope Francis calling TLM people mentally imbalanced - I couldn't find that, but maybe you have the original quote?

I suspect that it is from his autobiography here:

It is curious to see this fascination for what is not understood, for what appears somewhat hidden, and seems also at times to interest the younger generations. This rigidity is often accompanied by elegant and costly tailoring, lace, fancy trimmings, rochets. Not a taste for tradition but clerical ostentation, which then is none other than an ecclesiastic version of individualism. Not a return to the sacred but to quite the opposite, to sectarian worldliness. These ways of dressing up sometimes conceal mental imbalance, emotional deviation, behavioral difficulties, a personal problem that may be exploited. The papacy has had to intervene on this problem in four cases over recent years, three in Italy and one in Paraguay: dioceses that accepted seminarians often already sent away from other seminaries, and when this happens there is generally something wrong, something that leads people to hide their own personality in closed or sectarian environments.

I think that some people might disagree with what he wrote above, but to me what he wrote is quite different from a blanket statement like "People who go to the TLM are mentally imbalanced" as has been reported on some websites.

 

[Lady Bug]

maybe even find the disagreement in this thread to be amusing

No, THIS is the reason I use "lol."

 

[RileyG]

No, THIS is the reason I use "lol."

View attachment 365037

Do you usually attend the Novus Ordo?

 

[mourningdove~]

No, THIS is the reason I use "lol."

View attachment 365037

I didn't realize you had such a funny sense of humor ...
thanks for explaining.

 

[JSRG]

The irony of the heated nature of this thread is that the people here reject Pope Francis' reasons for restricting the Latin Mass - - and yet, the very reasons he had done it is running totally amok in this thread, lol. The division, that is. See, this makes Pope Francis look correct!

I strongly disagree. Any heated nature of this thread only shows how Francis's action served to needlessly greatly exacerbate things.

It's like kicking a hornet's nest, getting stung a bunch, and point to the harm you suffered as evidence you were correct to attack the hornets.

 

[fide]

My parish is a "TLM" parish (for lack of a better phrase). Right now it still celebrated multiple times a week with permission from Rome. The NO at the parish is also very "reverent" (in the sense use that is used to imply things like as communion on the tongue while kneeling, no female altar-servers, no Eucharistic ministers, Gregorian chant, ad-orientum, use of the Roman Canon, and so forth).

I love both, as well as other the various other NO Masses my diocese, the Eastern liturgies, etc. The way I look at it is that Jesus is right there in front of us at every Mass; which is amazing. I've never gone to a Mass without having witnessed something profound. So, I'm extremely grateful to be there in any case.

But all other things equal, if forced to choose between the two, I would attend the NO at my parish over the TLM. I think Pope Benedict was well-familiar with both (and seems to appreciate the TLM very much) but he never chose to celebrate it publicly as pope. I suspect that all of the other recent popes were familiar with the TLM too, but none of them chose to return the Church to that form.

So, it's not always the case that people who do not have a particular affinity for the TLM (as opposed to other forms) are ignorant or unfamiliar with it . . .

....

The externals do not demonstrate the crucial matter at hand. The crucial matter, again, is what only God sees and what He shares with His own. Worship in Spirit and Truth is visible only to the One who can Give, and those blessed with the Gifts, of Spirit and Truth. These treasures are entirely interior and will be until the "season for fruitfulness" comes. Thus:

Mt 13:27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?'
Mt 13:28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'
Mt 13:29 But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

And thus Paul writes of a "we" not of Church membership, but of actual literal apostolic community:

1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
1Co 2:14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Thus Paul had to say to some in Corinth:

1Co 3:1 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh....

 

[NextLevel]

The externals do not demonstrate the crucial matter at hand.

Awesome. I am glad that we agree on that point.

The crucial matter, again, is what only God sees and what He shares with His own. Worship in Spirit and Truth is visible only to the One who can Give, and those blessed with the Gifts, of Spirit and Truth. These treasures are entirely interior and will be until the "season for fruitfulness" comes. Thus:

And thus Paul writes of a "we" not of Church membership, but of actual literal apostolic community:

Thus Paul had to say to some in Corinth:

Absolutely. Sacred Scripture teaches that different gifts are given to different people within the Church.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to imply that there is a special group of Christians that have been given certain gifts that have not been given to others; that only this special group of Christians can discern that the 1962 form of the Mass is proper worship in spirit and truth; and that people outside of this special group cannot discern that the 1969 form of the Mass is improper worship because they are men of the flesh lacking those gifts.

Is that your conclusion? If not, it would be helpful if you could clearly state what you have concluded from those Bible veres in relation to the discussion that we have been having about the Mass.

Regardless of whether you, me, or anyone else in this thread, has been given those gifts or is a man of the flesh, the “we” in 1 Cor. 2:12 most certainly includes St. Paul and the other apostles. The pope and the bishops are the successors of the apostles. And none of the last 5 popes has chosen to return to the 1962 form of the Mass.

Am I to beleive that St. John XXIII was the last pope to have those gifts; that the last 5 popes are all babes in the faith and men of the flesh; and that Pope Paul VI was lying when he taught that the change to the 1969 form of the Mass was the will of Christ and that the Holy Spirit called the Church to make that change?

 

[NextLevel]

I strongly disagree. Any heated nature of this thread only shows how Francis's action served to needlessly greatly exacerbate things.

It's like kicking a hornet's nest, getting stung a bunch, and point to the harm you suffered as evidence you were correct to attack the hornets.

Well, divisions in the church over the form in the Mass existed decades before Pope Francis. It's not quite the case that you had a bear lying there in a peaceful sleep and a person came along and poked it for no reason.