Why did Pope Francis restrict the ancient Latin Mass?

[Akita Suggagaki]

I guess what bothers me about those who are so adamant about TLM is that they usually have no interest in studying Latin.

 

[Michie]

I guess what bothers me about those who are so adamant about TLM is that they usually have no interest in studying Latin.

What gives you that impression?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What gives you that impression?

From my friends
But I get it that one does not need to study it to appreciate TLM more.
There is more to it than just the language.

And the study of Latin can seem formidable...because it is.
I think worth the trouble though even if never arriving at proficiency.

Also, there is so much more available in Latin than just the Mass.

Christian Latin

 

[Michie]

From my friends
But I get it that one does not need to study it to appreciate TLM more.
There is more to it than just the language.

And the study of Latin can seem formidable...because it is.
I think worth the trouble though even if never arriving at proficiency.

Also, there is so much more available in Latin than just the Mass.

Christian Latin

I’ve met people and never seen a disinterest in Latin unless they had a hardline stance against the TLM and say it’s a dead language. Most seen interested in it if just for following the Latin in TLM. Most would like to learn it but given life as it is, it’s a very immersive process that most do not have a lot of time to devote to it.

 

[mourningdove~]

I guess what bothers me about those who are so adamant about TLM is that they usually have no interest in studying Latin.

I don't know why this would bother you.

There are plenty of of resources available today for one to learn and understand the Latin spoken in the TLM. And folks can easily learn prayers in Latin. All without making a major study of the language.

 

[fide]

Awesome. I am glad that we agree on that point.

Absolutely. Sacred Scripture teaches that different gifts are given to different people within the Church.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to imply that there is a special group of Christians that have been given certain gifts that have not been given to others; that only this special group of Christians can discern that the 1962 form of the Mass is proper worship in spirit and truth; and that people outside of this special group cannot discern that the 1969 form of the Mass is improper worship because they are men of the flesh lacking those gifts.

Is that your conclusion? If not, it would be helpful if you could clearly state what you have concluded from those Bible veres in relation to the discussion that we have been having about the Mass.

Regardless of whether you, me, or anyone else in this thread, has been given those gifts or is a man of the flesh, the “we” in 1 Cor. 2:12 most certainly includes St. Paul and the other apostles. The pope and the bishops are the successors of the apostles. And none of the last 5 popes has chosen to return to the 1962 form of the Mass.

Am I to beleive that St. John XXIII was the last pope to have those gifts; that the last 5 popes are all babes in the faith and men of the flesh; and that Pope Paul VI was lying when he taught that the change to the 1969 form of the Mass was the will of Christ and that the Holy Spirit called the Church to make that change?

First, there is a category of gift that includes different individual gifts that may be distributed differently among one group of people that are not at all given to another group. These are called charisms, or charismatic gifts, or graces gratis datae. A completely different category of gift - called the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, express themselves in stages of maturation, analogously to our physical childhood, adolescence and adulthood. My post referred to , in St. Paul's language, "babes" - or young children - in Christ. A five-year-old boy, for example is still a male human being, possessing the potential - the potency - to be a father. But that potency is exactly that - a potency, a potentiality, but not the actual possibility..yet. In adolescence he does begin to become able to beget a child, physically but not yet emotionally or psychologically. Only in the maturity of adulthood does this gift come to fruitfulness, or fruition. St. Paul was saying that these in Corinth were spiritually young children, or "babies" in Christ. As with the natural "facts of life" as we used to say of human sexuality, childhood is not the time to begin to teach "where babies come from." They are not ready to grasp or understand the facts.

So it is in the supernatural spiritual realm. This realm is not of charisms; the Seven Gifts are different, they manifest in grades - or stages - or ages, beginning with (mere) potency in spiritual childhood, to the beginnings of act in spiritual "adolescence", to glorious sanctity in spiritual maturity or "adulthood". They are placed in importance in the Catechism as given for the perfection of the Virtues (theological and moral). (CCC 1831 - the "In Brief" that follows may also be helpful) Thus, St. Paul wrote to some of the Catholics in Corinth, that still, they were only "babies" in Christ.

And as the Apostle John also acknowledged the stages, or ages, of spiritual maturity (or lack of it):

1Jn 2:12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his sake.
1Jn 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father.

This acknowledgment manifests the actual spiritual fatherhood of the Apostle, and opens doors of depth in understanding others in the Church. It needs to be said: Spiritual maturity has nothing to do with chronological natural maturity, or even number of years "a Catholic." Nor is it necessarily linked to formation in a religious order, or education and advancements in the clerical hierarchy.

The best introduction to this spirituality that I know of is The Ordinary Path to Holiness (disclosure: I know the author). A deeper and broader presentation (and free) in the EWTN Library is The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life. The spirituality itself is best described by St. John of the Cross.

 

[NextLevel]

I guess what bothers me about those who are so adamant about TLM is that they usually have no interest in studying Latin.

I think this may vary from place to place. At my parish there is a Latin study group that gets together periodically. I wouldn't say it is a universal thing that people who have an affinity for the TLM have no interest in the Latin language itself.

But even if they have no interest, I am also not sure why that would bother you. I guess it has to do with one's purpose for learning a language. For me a lanaguage is primarily a means of communication or obtaining substantive information. If I were to study Latin, I would most likely focus on the Latin that is used in the ecclesiastical setting so that I can better understand the Mass. Or perhaps if I was a scholar I might study Latin in order to read some ancient works that are written in Latin and have not been translated into English. But beyond that I would seemingly have no personal reason to study the langauge. One cannot exactly travel to some far-off part of the world and have a conversation with the local population in Latin, after all. Me and my cousins are not getting together this weekend to play spades in Latin. . .

To be certain, I think that having the Mass celebrated in a language that one can understand is great. Often at my parish people at the TLM follow along with an English missal. At least for me, that would be a bit of a distraction that would make it more difficult for me to be mentally "present" at Mass. But on the other hand, I would not say that knowing the langauge in which the Mass is celebrated is crucial to worship.

For example, I sometimes go to a Mass celebrated in Spanish. My Spanish is terrible, but I know when we are at the confetior, the gloria, the creed, the consecration, the our father, and so forth. I am still able able to mentally participate, or have the same "intentions" when the Mass is celebrated in Spanish . . . I don't see why someone cannot attend the TLM in a similar manner without having a sound command of Latin itself. Often during low Mass I cannot hear anything that is being said on the altar at all, but I still have a good sense of what is occurring in the same way that I might at a Mass that is celebrated in Spanish.

 

[Lady Bug]

I strongly disagree. Any heated nature of this thread only shows how Francis's action served to needlessly greatly exacerbate things.

It's like kicking a hornet's nest, getting stung a bunch, and point to the harm you suffered as evidence you were correct to attack the hornets.

I was only expressing what I thought was true, but I may have to withdraw from this debate because I just can't deal with any antipathy or conflict with anyone about this. It's not the TLM issue that bothers me that much, it's just that I can't focus on it right now. I have too many personal issues. I do like to be a spectator of this discussion, though. It is extremely interesting.

 

[NextLevel]

First, there is a category of gift that includes different individual gifts that may be distributed differently among one group of people that are not at all given to another group. These are called charisms, or charismatic gifts, or graces gratis datae. A completely different category of gift - called the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, express themselves in stages of maturation, analogously to our physical childhood, adolescence and adulthood. My post referred to , in St. Paul's language, "babes" - or young children - in Christ. A five-year-old boy, for example is still a male human being, possessing the potential - the potency - to be a father. But that potency is exactly that - a potency, a potentiality, but not the actual possibility..yet. In adolescence he does begin to become able to beget a child, physically but not yet emotionally or psychologically. Only in the maturity of adulthood does this gift come to fruitfulness, or fruition. St. Paul was saying that these in Corinth were spiritually young children, or "babies" in Christ. As with the natural "facts of life" as we used to say of human sexuality, childhood is not the time to begin to teach "where babies come from." They are not ready to grasp or understand the facts.

So it is in the supernatural spiritual realm. This realm is not of charisms; the Seven Gifts are different, they manifest in grades - or stages - or ages, beginning with (mere) potency in spiritual childhood, to the beginnings of act in spiritual "adolescence", to glorious sanctity in spiritual maturity or "adulthood". They are placed in importance in the Catechism as given for the perfection of the Virtues (theological and moral). (CCC 1831 - the "In Brief" that follows may also be helpful) Thus, St. Paul wrote to some of the Catholics in Corinth, that still, they were only "babies" in Christ.

And as the Apostle John also acknowledged the stages, or ages, of spiritual maturity (or lack of it):

This acknowledgment manifests the actual spiritual fatherhood of the Apostle, and opens doors of depth in understanding others in the Church. It needs to be said: Spiritual maturity has nothing to do with chronological natural maturity, or even number of years "a Catholic." Nor is it necessarily linked to formation in a religious order, or education and advancements in the clerical hierarchy.

The best introduction to this spirituality that I know of is The Ordinary Path to Holiness (disclosure: I know the author). A deeper and broader presentation (and free) in the EWTN Library is The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life. The spirituality itself is best described by St. John of the Cross.

Do your comments relate to the topic that we were discussing previously (comparing the two forms of the Mass) or have we moved onto an entirely new topic? If they relate to the form of the Mass, it would still be helpful if you could clarify what the relationship is between your comments and the original topic. . .

Regardless, thank you for the reading suggestions. I have read some of St. John and enjoyed him very much. I've come across works by Lagrange here and there (I looked a book from him on grace a while back) but his style of writing was difficult for me to interact with. I'd say generally with spirituality, I think that we can get insights from reading others, but ultimately it is unique for each person because each person has a unique relationship with God.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I’ve met people and never seen a disinterest in Latin unless they had a hardline stance against the TLM and say it’s a dead language. Most seen interested in it if just for following the Latin in TLM. Most would like to learn it but given life as it is, it’s a very immersive process that most do not have a lot of time to devote to it.

I sure now that. At least on line I can find others who have the interest. But at my parish, no.

I don't know why this would bother you.

I think because I have made the commitment and worked so hard even though I have a full time job and family life. I feel alone in this commitment and people who love the Latin Mass would seem like possible allies. Yet, in my neck of the4 woods they are not.

 

[NextLevel]

I sure now that. At least on line I can find others who have the interest. But at my parish, no.


I think because I have made the commitment and worked so hard even though I have a full time job and family life. I feel alone in this commitment and people who love the Latin Mass would seem like possible allies. Yet, in my neck of the4 woods they are not.

Are you this person? Because if so you must be about 120 years old by now.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Are you this person? Because if so you must be about 120 years old by now.

Very good for you. That is Goro Yamaguchi playing the song "Akita Sugagaki" Did you listen to it?
I have been trying to play it for about 20 years now.

 

[fide]

Do your comments relate to the topic that we were discussing previously (comparing the two forms of the Mass) or have we moved onto an entirely new topic? If they relate to the form of the Mass, it would still be helpful if you could clarify what the relationship is between your comments and the original topic. . .

Regardless, thank you for the reading suggestions. I have read some of St. John and enjoyed him very much. I've come across works by Lagrange here and there (I looked a book from him on grace a while back) but his style of writing was difficult for me to interact with. I'd say generally with spirituality, I think that we can get insights from reading others, but ultimately it is unique for each person because each person has a unique relationship with God.

My post on spirituality was in response to this below, from you in a former post. I don't know how the confusion originated:
from NextLevel:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to imply that there is a special group of Christians that have been given certain gifts that have not been given to others; that only this special group of Christians can discern that the 1962 form of the Mass is proper worship in spirit and truth; and that people outside of this special group cannot discern that the 1969 form of the Mass is improper worship because they are men of the flesh lacking those gifts.

Is that your conclusion? If not, it would be helpful if you could clearly state what you have concluded from those Bible veres in relation to the discussion that we have been having about the Mass.

I was trying to correct your sense that appears to not differentiate between charisms and the Seven Gifts of the Spirit. The Seven Gifts exhibit a reliance on the state of spiritual growth of the interior life of the person. You said, "please correct me if I'm am wrong, but..." I was trying to point out the false presumption that I surmised from your post which was confusing that reality. I hoped to clarify to you what exactly I am saying. Which is, to be blunt, beginners in the interior life - "babes in Christ" - vastly outnumber those even in "spiritual adolescence" (that is, in the Illuminative Stage of the interior life).

If the Church would take adult lay formation seriously (and in humility) our situation might not be as impoverished as it is. And more would - indeed, more could understand that spirituality is meant to grow and then, why the TLM (the Traditional Liturgy of the Mass) is far, far superior to the N.O. That was the point I was aiming at.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

At my parish there is a Latin study group that gets together periodically.

I would love that. Encyclicals, writings of saints and theologians, etc. So much to explore with other.

 

[NextLevel]

My post on spirituality was in response to this below, from you in a former post. I don't know how the confusion originated:
from NextLevel:

I was trying to correct your sense that appears to not differentiate between charisms and the Seven Gifts of the Spirit. The Seven Gifts exhibit a reliance in the state of spiritual growth of the interior life of the person. You said, "please correct me if I'm am wrong, but..." I was trying to point out the false presumption that I surmised from your post which was confusing that facts and which I hoped would clarify to you what exactly I am saying. Which is, to be blunt, beginners in the interior life - "babes in Christ" - vastly outnumber those even in "spiritual adolescence" (that is, in the Illuminative Stage of the interior life).

I see. Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand how it ties back to your earlier posts.

If the Church would take adult lay formation seriously (and in humility) our situation might not be as impoverished as it is. And more would / could understand that and why the TLM (the Traditional Liturgy of the Mass) is far, far superior to the N.O. That was point I was aiming at.

The Magisterium does not beleive that the TLM (or a reformed form of the Mass close to the TLM) is superior to the NO, so why would you excpect that they would form adults in a way that would lead them to believe that?

To me, that does not really make sense. . . it's a bit like a expecting a Mets fan to buy people a Dodgers hat, no?

Fundamentally it seems that you beleive that the Magisterium is in error when it comes to the Mass (whether through sheer ignorance or a lack of spritual gifts). Is this correct or do I have you mistaken?

 

[NextLevel]

Very good for you. That is Goro Yamaguchi playing the song "Akita Sugagaki" Did you listen to it?
I have been trying to play it for about 20 years now.

Yeah I ended up listening to a few different songs online with the Japanese flute. It's actually pretty amazing what some people can do with it.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Yeah I ended up listening to a few different songs online with the Japanese flute. It's actually pretty amazing what some people can do with it.

Yes,, I can blow notes but I do not sound like them.

 

[fide]

I see. Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand how it ties back to your earlier posts.
.....

To me, that does not really make sense. . . it's a bit like a expecting a Mets fan to buy people a Dodgers hat, no?

Fundamentally it seems that you beleive that the Magisterium is in error when it comes to the Mass (whether through sheer ignorance or a lack of spritual gifts). Is this correct or do I have you mistaken?

If human logic could lead, or could have led, to Truth the Cross was unnecessary. If you want the Truth, look into the Cross.

 

[mourningdove~]

I think because I have made the commitment and worked so hard even though I have a full time job and family life. I feel alone in this commitment and people who love the Latin Mass would seem like possible allies. Yet, in my neck of the4 woods they are not.

I understand then, your desire for connectness.

I feel that way sometimes, too, about connection. It hasn't been easy for me locally to find connection with others who openly love the Lord. Many church goers, but of their passion for God it is not so easily seen. When I lived in the Bible Belt, people were more open about their feelings for God. I liked that.

I am sure part of my passion for the TLM is that love for God is easier for me to see there.
.

 

[NextLevel]

If you want the Truth, look into the Cross.

Absolutely. We can also look to the Magisterium of the Church for the truth.