Why did Pope Francis restrict the ancient Latin Mass?

[RileyG]

One thing I will say, I doubt I would have ever become Catholic if it were not for the NO. But I think there is room enough on the Church for both.

Amen! And all liturgies, for that matter.

 

[RileyG]

Funny that you'd mention this.
I caught abit of a YouTubed TLM this morn ... and it was a mumbly one. (lol)

With so few TLMs to watch, you'd think the priest wouldn't mumble.
But it was early and he was older; maybe he just wasn't awake yet ....

(So there were 55 of us online watching, and barely hearing anything ...
It was like a flashback to 1969! lol!)

With my experience, the TLM is almost entirely silent, with the exception of the prayers after Mass and the homily. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[mourningdove~]

With my experience, the TLM is almost entirely silent, with the exception of the prayers after Mass and the homily. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I don't think of the TLM as being 'silent' ... with the prayers and homily being audible ...
but yes, the environment is more silent and reverent.

 

[RileyG]

I don't think of the TLM as being 'silent' ... with the prayers and homily being audible ...
but yes, the environment is more silent and reverent.

Every time I attended it was almost completely silent. Is that normal?

 

[mourningdove~]

Every time I attended it was almost completely silent. Is that normal?

Maybe this will help!

Here is a video of an actual daily TLM from 2022.
The priest can be heard; so can the people be heard when responding.
So, I would not call this mass "silent".

Imho, this is an example of a daily TLM done well.

(Sadly, very sadly to me, this church could no longer provide the TLM effective 11/23 when the bishop decided to severely restrict it.)

Note: The Mass begins at about 4:20
(If you fast forward and stop at points, you will hear the priest and the people.)

 

[RileyG]

Maybe this will help!

Here is a video of an actual daily TLM from 2022.
The priest can be heard; so can the people be heard when responding.
So, I would not call this mass "silent".

Imho, this is an example of a daily TLM done well.

(Sadly, very sadly to me, this church could no longer provide the TLM effective 11/23 when the bishop decided to severely restrict it.)

Note: The Mass begins at about 4:20
(If you fast forward and stop at points, you will hear the priest and the people.)

Thank you! I didn’t know the congregation actually responded! It was always the priest only and the altar boy when I attended

(in my case, the altar man since he was clearly in his 20s)

 

[RileyG]

Also, the epistle and gospel when I attend (including the final gospel from the prologue of St. John) was NEVER read in English, only Latin.

On a normal weekday, there was never a homily, so the entire Mass without exception was in Latin.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

One thing I will say, I doubt I would have ever become Catholic if it were not for the NO. But I think there is room enough on the Church for both.

Now why Mich, after all these years did I not know you were a convert.

I always thought you were a cradle Catholic.

not that it’s that big a thing, I’m just taken back a little by my ignorance.

 

[Michie]

Now why Mich, after all these years did I not know you were a convert.

I always thought you were a cradle Catholic.

not that it’s that big a thing, I’m just taken back a little by my ignorance.

I thought you were here when I was in the midst of converting.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I thought you were here when I was in the midst of converting.

Well. Mich,


I am getting old

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Francis said he felt the more ancient mass was "being used in an ideological way" in reaction to modernity, including the more modern Vatican II mass.

He may have been right. But is that bad?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Francis said he felt the more ancient mass was "being used in an ideological way" in reaction to modernity, including the more modern Vatican II mass.

He may have been right. But is that bad?

I‘m willing to defend “Yes it is bad” with an UZI To my temple.

(This is why on one likes having me around)

 

[mourningdove~]

If the new pope is one inclined to lift some of the restrictions off the TLM ...
I think it would be an interesting experiment to do this:

In a city where attendance and support at a church has dwindled significantly ...
and multiple parishes are being combined because of the low numbers ...
why not take one of the 'dying out' parishes and turn it into a 'TLM only' parish ...
and see what happens!


Where I live ... very populated, old (formerly very Catholic) cities here ... many of the old Catholic churches are 'dying out'. Only the old timers are pretty much there. Some of these old churches are gorgeous ... cathedrals! In lieu of shutting them down, parishes here continue to be combined. We currently have ONE priest pastoring FIVE churches! (The norm here is more like one priest pastoring 2 or 3.) So why not try it! Why not turn one of these old churches into a TLM parish ... and let Catholic locals decide where and how they want to worship? I think it would be very interesting to see, if the TLM could bring life back again to an old and slowly emptying church building ....

 

[jas3]

Thank you! I didn’t know the congregation actually responded! It was always the priest only and the altar boy when I attended

Usually the congregation doesn't respond. Some parishes do a "dialogue mass" where everybody says the responses, but I think the norm is for the altar servers to say them. When I was attending the TLM, one time after mass was finished, the priest asked everyone to remember that they weren't doing a dialogue mass and to leave the responses to the altar servers.

With my experience, the TLM is almost entirely silent, with the exception of the prayers after Mass and the homily. Correct me if I’m wrong.

This would be a low mass, which is an abbreviated form of the high mass. A high mass involves singing from a choir. At one I went to, we were given sheet music for "Holy, Holy, Holy" on Trinity Sunday, and the congregation sang the hymn after the mass was over.

 

[RileyG]

Usually the congregation doesn't respond. Some parishes do a "dialogue mass" where everybody says the responses, but I think the norm is for the altar servers to say them. When I was attending the TLM, one time after mass was finished, the priest asked everyone to remember that they weren't doing a dialogue mass and to leave the responses to the altar servers.
This would be a low mass, which is an abbreviated form of the high mass. A high mass involves singing from a choir. At one I went to, we were given sheet music for "Holy, Holy, Holy" on Trinity Sunday, and the congregation sang the hymn after the mass was over.

Yes. I’ve attended a few low masses, and only one high mass where it was all sung.

Were you ever Catholic?

 

[mourningdove~]

Usually the congregation doesn't respond.

Really? That has not been my experience with the TLM.
Perhaps it has something to do with the bishop's preference, the country, etc.

All my years growing up (pre-Vatican II), parishioners responded ... though responses were brief.
And here in these parts today, they still do.

(go figure?)

 

[jas3]

Were you ever Catholic?

I attended my Catholic grandfather's parish occasionally growing up and spent a few years attending the NO and TLM regularly as an adult inquirer, but never ended up converting due to a variety of factors involving my family and myself. For myself, I loved the TLM, but was deeply pained by what I saw going on in the NO and in the suppression of the TLM from the highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy.

Really? That has not been my experience with the TLM.
Perhaps it has something to do with the bishop's preference, the country, etc.

Maybe so. My experiences were with the FSSP and SSPX, and most of the time if any responses were said, it was in very hushed tones, but usually there weren't any responses. I remember reading somewhere that Abp. Lefebvre had his seminarians do dialogue Masses so they could learn the liturgy, but this was presented as an unusual case. I certainly can't speak to how things were pre-Vatican II; that was well before my time.

 

[RileyG]

I attended my Catholic grandfather's parish occasionally growing up and spent a few years attending the NO and TLM regularly as an adult inquirer, but never ended up converting due to a variety of factors involving my family and myself. For myself, I loved the TLM, but was deeply pained by what I saw going on in the NO and in the suppression of the TLM from the highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy.
Maybe so. My experiences were with the FSSP and SSPX, and most of the time if any responses were said, it was in very hushed tones, but usually there weren't any responses. I remember reading somewhere that Abp. Lefebvre had his seminarians do dialogue Masses so they could learn the liturgy, but this was presented as an unusual case. I certainly can't speak to how things were pre-Vatican II; that was well before my time.

Ah, I see.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Usually the congregation doesn't respond. Some parishes do a "dialogue mass" where everybody says the responses, but I think the norm is for the altar servers to say them. When I was attending the TLM, one time after mass was finished, the priest asked everyone to remember that they weren't doing a dialogue mass and to leave the responses to the altar servers.
This would be a low mass, which is an abbreviated form of the high mass. A high mass involves singing from a choir. At one I went to, we were given sheet music for "Holy, Holy, Holy" on Trinity Sunday, and the congregation sang the hymn after the mass was over.

Even in the NO I have seen some weekday masses with no homilies. I think that is strange, but I think it is allowed. Better to have some sort of homily.

Homilies range between excellent and mediocre, honestly between excellent and poor.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

OK. So align yourself randomly when at church. Or, since God is omnipresent, align yourself randomly wherever you are.

You really don't understand contemplation, do you ?