Why did Pope Francis restrict the ancient Latin Mass?

[RileyG]

As I understand it they have not been suppressed. But I'm not absolutely sure. I know the Eastern Rites all continue on.

Do you mean the Ordinariate Liturgy? There are less than 100 sites in all of the USA that have that. My guess is closer to 50 sites. One in Omaha would be closest for you. As to the Zaire liturgy I have no idea where that is in the USA.

Never experienced it. Wish I could. I know the Ordinariate talks about it a bit.

Oh yes! I wish I could go to Omaha very soon and go to the Ordinariate. I hear it's very beautiful.

The Sarum liturgy would have been in latin, but there would have been some minor changes. Same with all the western rites that are similar to the TLM but have minor changes, if I understand correctly.

Thankful to live in a very conservative diocese that preserves the integrity of the Mass.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Sarum Rite (Use of Salisbury) which would have been the Mass celebrated in England prior to the Reformation.

Here it is celebrated by Catholic priests on the Feast of Candlemass, February 2nd 1997.

Catholic priests celebrating Mass in an Anglican chapel.

It's beyond gorgeous.

It looks WAY TOO TLM for the comfort of some in the Vatican. And it would almost need an Anglican chapel as many Catholic sanctuaries have been seriously remuddled.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Oh yes! I wish I could go to Omaha very soon and go to the Ordinariate. I hear it's very beautiful.

The Sarum liturgy would have been in latin, but there would have been some minor changes. Same with all the western rites that are similar to the TLM but have minor changes, if I understand correctly.

Thankful to live in a very conservative diocese that preserves the integrity of the Mass.

Your diocese is great. Pope Benedict was asked by a student where he should move to in the USA and Benedict said 'Lincoln".

 

[RileyG]

Your diocese is great. Pope Benedict was asked by a student where he should move to in the USA and Benedict said 'Lincoln".

Amen. Thankful for the abundant priests and religious sisters we have here. The Archdiocese of Omaha will always have a special place in my heart and I pray for them daily.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I would like to see more people actually study Latin rather than let it seem more mystical because it is not understood.

The Psalms are simple phrases and often repeated. A good place to start learning Latin.

Compline (Night Prayer)

Compline (Night Prayer) from the Liturgy of the Hours for today.

universalis.com

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio et nunc et semper
et in sǽcula sæculórum.
Amen.

 

[Michie]

I would like to see more people actually study Latin rather than let it seem more mystical because it is not understood.

The Psalms are simple phrases and often repeated. A good place to start learning Latin.

Compline (Night Prayer)

Compline (Night Prayer) from the Liturgy of the Hours for today.

universalis.com

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio et nunc et semper
et in sǽcula sæculórum.
Amen.

@Davidnic studied Latin and taught his children as well. His daughter used to call it the beautiful language. He is rarely here anymore but he would be the one to discuss it with.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I would like to see more people actually study Latin rather than let it seem more mystical because it is not understood.

The Psalms are simple phrases and often repeated. A good place to start learning Latin.

Compline (Night Prayer)

Compline (Night Prayer) from the Liturgy of the Hours for today.

universalis.com

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio et nunc et semper
et in sǽcula sæculórum.
Amen.

Latin should be a 'common' language rather than a 'mystical' language.

 

[chevyontheriver]

@Davidnic studied Latin and taught his children as well. His daughter used to call it the beautiful language. He is rarely here anymore but he would be the one to discuss it with.

We had a copy of 'Cattus Petasatus' when our kids were growing up. My daughter still has it. For those of you that don't recognize that title it is a book by Dr. Seuss, 'The Cat In the Hat'.

 

[Michie]

We had a copy of 'Cattus Petasatus' when our kids were growing up. My daughter still has it. For those of you that don't recognize that title it is a book by Dr. Seuss, 'The Cat In the Hat'.

That’s awesome!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Latin should be a 'common' language rather than a 'mystical' language.

Why? Not everyone is capable of learning Latin.

Heck, even when I attend Mass where they say the Agnus Dei in Latin, I still
have difficulty translating it into my native language which is implanted in
my mind.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Why? Not everyone is capable of learning Latin.

Heck, even when I attend Mass where they say the Agnus Die in Latin, I still
have difficulty translating it into my native language which is implanted in
my mind.

Well, it is ‘Agnus Dei’ so I guess I see your point. Not everyone can learn Latin.

My point was that Latin shouldn’t be a ‘mystery’ language to obscure meaning. It was adopted by a huge swath of the Church simply because it was the vulgar language.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

My point was that Latin shouldn’t be a ‘mystery’ language to obscure meaning. It was adopted by a huge swath of the Church simply because it was the vulgar language.

I can't help but wonder of that is part of the reason many people like TLM so much. It seems more mystical or exotic because it is less understood.

It certainly is not an easy language to learn. It takes work and patience over time. It might be unrealistic to think one will be reading encyclicals or even something like Imitatio Christi but it is really good for the brain. And we come to see the fascinating way language expresses our thoughts.

For me though, I feel more connected to past generations, centuries and centuries. And, as I said, the Psalms are not too difficult. And they are already familiar. We can almost guess in many of them what is going on. Lot's of "Benedícam Dóminum in omni témpore" and "Clamávi ad te, salvum me fac"

and I also cheat sometimes with Google Search

Some people like to do puzzles. I do Latin exercises and translations.
And yet something like St Augustine's Confessions is way beyond my abilities.

If TLM can be appreciated without comparing it to NO, it can be a great asset.
We just cant get into this anti-Vatican II mindset that it is better, more holy, more sacred and preferred by God.

 

[mourningdove~]

If TLM can be appreciated without comparing it to NO, it can be a great asset.
We just cant get into this anti-Vatican II mindset that it is better, more holy, more sacred and preferred by God.

Maybe you can't ... but I can.

So yes, I can say the TLM is better, more holy, more sacred.

The only thing "I can't", is to say that I know that the TLM is preferred by God.
I'm guessing it may be, but that would be only a guess.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I can't help but wonder of that is part of the reason many people like TLM so much. It seems more mystical or exotic because it is less understood.

For some people it MAY be exactly that, sadly.

It certainly is not an easy language to learn. It takes work and patience over time. It might be unrealistic to think one will be reading encyclicals or even something like Imitatio Christi but it is really good for the brain. And we come to see the fascinating way language expresses our thoughts.

I think English is much harder. Almost everything is irregular.

For me though, I feel more connected to past generations, centuries and centuries. And, as I said, the Psalms are not too difficult. And they are already familiar. We can almost guess in many of them what is going on. Lot's of "Benedícam Dóminum in omni témpore" and "Clamávi ad te, salvum me fac"

It is a connector.

and I also cheat sometimes with Google Search

Not all of us are Reginald Fosters.

And yet something like St Augustine's Confessions is way beyond my abilities.

Ditto.

If TLM can be appreciated without comparing it to NO, it can be a great asset.
We just cant get into this anti-Vatican II mindset that it is better, more holy, more sacred and preferred by God.

I think comparing and contrasting NO and TLM, for that matter all sorts of liturgies, is a good thing. In theory that's how things get improved. There ARE good things about the NO and about the TLM. Pope Benedict hoped for a cross-fertilization. It is still a noble goal. That does not require an anti-Vatican II mindset. In fact it MIGHT even allow for the realization of the actual liturgical hopes of the Council, far from realized to date.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Maybe you can't ... but I can.

So yes, I can say the TLM is better, more holy, more sacred.

The only thing "I can't", is to say that I know that the TLM is preferred by God.
I'm guessing it may be, but that would be only a guess.

One has to look at the fruits of these liturgies. And one can wonder if the NO has very mixed fruits. When one looks at median age, mass frequency, doctrinal adherence, those who go to a TLM are very different from the rest of us. Why?

 

[Lady Bug]

I don't know. I thought that the Mass presided by the new Pope was amazing and it was NO. I know it wasn't in English but that's not my point exactly.

 

[mourningdove~]

One has to look at the fruits of these liturgies. And one can wonder if the NO has very mixed fruits. When one looks at median age, mass frequency, doctrinal adherence, those who go to a TLM are very different from the rest of us. Why?

When you say that 'those who go to a TLM are very different from the rest of us' ... what do you mean? How are 'they' different?

And btw, I am one of those 'they' people! lol
I only don't go to the TLM because it is not available to me.

 

[mourningdove~]

I don't know. I thought that the Mass presided by the new Pope was amazing and it was NO. I know it wasn't in English but that's not my point exactly.

Good for you!

Let it be noted, though, that we do not all experience spirituality in the same way.
That is why there are different religious orders, different methods of prayer, etc.
IOW, we are not all wired the same.

I am happy for you, though, that you have connected with what you like, and that the Church makes that very available to you.

 

[mourningdove~]

One has to look at the fruits of these liturgies.

This ^ is HUGE.

And again, I stress the point that we are not all spiritually wired the same.
No matter what any church says, we were not all created as clones of one another.
Look at the saints. Look at the different spiritualities we see.
Well, it is still that way today.

So while the N.O. spirituality may best inspire you to draw nearer to God ...
it is the TLM that best inspires me.

God did not wire us all spiritually the same.

I don't think I can say that often enough.

 

[chevyontheriver]

When you say that 'those who go to a TLM are very different from the rest of us' ... what do you mean? How are 'they' different?

And btw, I am one of those 'they' people! lol
I only don't go to the TLM because it is not available to me.

Well, the differences are a lower median age for the TLM - not just predominantly old farts like me, they go every week - not just occasionally or never, they go to confession - not like the rest of us to seem never to need to confess anything, and they tend to actually believe the doctrines of the faith - not the cafeteria of choices so common among Catholics.

But just a caveat, since Catholics who don't believe Catholic things and don't go to mass and don't go to confession are still polled as Catholics, the average Catholic is not necessarily the NO Catholic. Which is to say the NO Catholics also may go to mass more frequently and believe more as Catholics than the 'average' polled. It's just that the 'average' Catholic stays at home on Sunday and believes whatever he or she wants. But they still poll as Catholics.

I haven't been to a TLM in a year now. I was at an Ordinariate mass a few months ago. Also at a Byzantine Catholic liturgy a few months ago. Otherwise a reverent NO mass in my parish.