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Why did Jesus need to die?

Greg J.

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I will do nothing with this verse but I will ask you a question: where does it say: they will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction "for ever and ever"?
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10, 1984 NIV)

Combined with:
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15, 1984 NIV)

Also:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7, 1984 NIV)

Jude 10-13. Verse 13 (1984 NIV): They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 14:9-11. Verse 11 (1984 NIV): And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:46, 1984 NIV)

And others.
 
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ViaCrucis

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We are told that Jesus died for our sins, because otherwise God could not forgive us. That makes no sense to me. If God wanted to forgive, why doesn't he just forgive? Why does he need the death of his son in order to forgive us?

This is, more-or-less, a statement made in regard to Penal Substitution Theory.

Penal Substitution, as the name suggests, is that the Atonement is primarily understood as Jesus vicariously taking upon Himself the penalty of our sin; and from this idea that this was in some way necessary for God to forgive us. You do, however, make a very important point: Why can't God forgive us anyway?

And, of course, we see precisely that God does forgive people in the Bible anyway. In the story of Jonah, Jonah is sent to preach to the people of Nineveh and the people of Nineveh repent and they are forgiven. In Psalm 51 David famously laments of his sin by having Uriah killed in order that he might gratify his lust for Bathsheba, and we see this statement,

"For you have no delight in sacrifice;
if I were to give a burnt offering, you would not be pleased.
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
"

So the idea that God is unable to forgive us without having something die, or as though God has some sort of blood obsession, isn't an exactly biblical idea; it's also not--historically--the Christian idea.

Penal Substitution only shows up, as a Theory of the Atonement, in the post-Reformation period, with its genesis primarily found in the writings of Reformed theologians.

Penal Substitution is a variation of an older idea, Satisfaction Theory. Satisfaction Theory shows up in the 11th century in the writings of St. Anselm of Canterbury. Anselm had written his work Cur Deus Homo (Why God Became Man) in order to explain why the Incarnation was necessary. In it Anselm argues from the perspective of God as Lord, and the Feudalistic context of Anselm can be seen in that God's lordship is perceived as a feudal lord over his fief. God, as Lord, is deserved of the highest honor, and men in their sin have universally offended God's rightful honor and as Lord it is His right to demand satisfaction against His offended honor; and since none of us are capable of paying this honor debt, God the Son becomes a human being that He might, as God's equal and as one of us make right satisfaction on our behalf. Thus Christ's death satisfies the honor debt owed to God.

This Anselmian model was later taken and changed under St. Thomas Aquinas; for Aquinas it is not God's honor, but rather God's justice that is offended. And thus as before, Christ makes satisfaction by His own righteous obedience--even to the point of death on the cross--in order to right the wrongs of humankind.

In neither the Anselmian or Thomist ideas do we find the idea that God needs to punish someone in order to forgive; but rather we see Christ as one who makes satisfaction on our behalf. Penal Substitution takes Satisfaction Theory further by stating that Christ is punished in our stead in order that we might be spared punishment.

All of these, of course, only really get us to about a thousand years ago in the history of the Church, and it is uniquely Western. For the first thousand years of Christianity, and still today in the Eastern Churches, Satisfaction Theory has never really been a popular idea, and Penal Substitution is completely and entirely foreign to the theology of the Christian East.

Instead, the Eastern Churches continue to teach the more ancient ideas of Recapitulation and Ransom.

Recapitulation Theory is usually identified most prominently with St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 190 CE). In short, Recapitulation Theory is that Christ fixes what Adam had broken; where Adam had been disobedient and brought death, Christ was obedient and has brought resurrection from the dead. Namely: Christ in assuming human nature has healed the entire human condition in Himself, from birth to death. So He takes upon Himself the entirety of human nature, and redeems it by uniting it to His own divinity, and through His own righteous life sanctifies it, and in dying He shares in our own human mortality, and then by rising liberates the human condition from death and granting immortality and eternal life to the entire human race. Christ, therefore, is the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead, and we too--because He rose--shall also rise from the dead and share in the eternal life of the world to come. Here, Christ's death is not a punishment from God, it is instead the participation of God in our own mortality in order to rescue us from death, and in fact to rescue the entirety of all creation.

Ransom Theory is not at the exclusion of Recapitulation Theory, but rather is another facet of the ancient Christian view. Namely that God offers His own Son as a ransom payment to the devil, from the idea that human beings by their sin had become captive to the devil. Christ is the ransom, a much bigger prize for the greedy devil to sink his claws upon than the rest of us measly sinners. But the devil doesn't see what's coming: Christ who in death descends into Hades actually destroys Hades and conquers Satan and Death (c.f. the Harrowing of Hell) and rescues the captives of death, and rising from the dead has become the Victor over all the cosmic powers of this fallen world in order that His victory might become the victory of all creation in the resurrection and renewal of all things.

Taken together, Recapitulation and Ransom, are usually in the modern period known as Christus Victor Theory, a term taken from the same-named book by early 20th century Lutheran theologian Gustaf Aulen.

Since the publication of Aulen's work the idea of Christus Victor has become increasingly more well known in the Christian West, and given both Catholic and Protestant Christians a chance to look at the idea of the Atonement through simultaneously fresh and ancient eyes.

Speaking personally, I subscribe, broadly, to Christus Victor Theory; I regard Penal Substitution to be fundamentally untenable because it is difficult to regard God as anything other than a bloodthirsty tyrant through the lens of Penal Substitution. God is primarily angry, and only tolerates human beings if someone suffers and bleeds; this seems to fly firmly against the view of God contained in Scripture and the Creeds: the God who condescends to meet sinners out of love and kindness in order to rescue them and reconcile them to Himself, and who abandons Himself in love for the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Alla27

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And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10, 1984 NIV)
Thank you.
Devil, his demons(fallen angels) and some men are sons of perdition. They will be punished for ever and ever. But who the sons of perdition? Atheist, are they sons of perdition? Mormons are they sons of perdition? Muslims, are they sons of perdition?

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7, 1984 NIV)
It doesn't say here they will suffer for ever and ever. It says that they will suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Let's say that there is eternal fire. What is this? Is this the fire that exists from eternity to eternity. Let's say I told you that God punished me by putting me in this fire that exists from eternity to eternity. Did I tell for how long I am going to be in the fire that exists from eternity to eternity?
And how can my personal punishment be eternal if it has the beginning? If something has the beginning it is not eternal at all. it has the beginning it has the end.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:46, 1984 NIV)
And others.
Eternal punishment. What is this? Is this something that exists from eternity to eternity? If I am punished with eternal punishment then I am punished with something that exists from eternity to eternity. But for how long will I be punished with the punishment that exists from eternity to eternity?
If there is the beginning of my personal punishment then it is not eternal, then it has the end.
P.S. Sorry for some repetition.
 
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ViaCrucis

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When a person dies, he goes to be with his Lord. God is not the one who is the bloodthirsty tyrant.

If the presentation of God is that God requires human suffering in order to be satiated, then that is a presentation of God as a bloodthirsty tyrant. I absolutely agree that God is neither bloodthirsty nor a tyrant; but a significant problem with Penal Substitution Theory is that this is frequently how God is presented. And it becomes a hindrance to the Gospel because the Gospel--the good news of what God has done in Christ for the world--becomes obfuscated behind a veil of a wrathful, angry Deity whose chief disposition toward the world isn't grace, but anger. It obscures the friendly, fatherly face of God behind a veil of wrath, and frequently conflates Law and Gospel together: the Gospel is presented as a Law to be obeyed, rather than a word which redeems and saves us. God is--in Christ--for the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Greg J.

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It seems that many people who are presented with the gospel of love, sacrifice, and salvation (and our need for it) receive it like God is a bloodthirsty tyrant (typically, for not letting us do whatever we want). It is one of the deceptions of sin. Through the lens of sin, God seems like a freedom taker instead of freedom giver.

It's a twisting of who is responsible for punishment. The attitude is like, if God is doing the punishing, he must be evil—without even examining why the punishment is there in the first place. The attitude of "nothing deserves eternal punishment" only exists because of an enormous loss of belief in the exaltedness of God. People under a human tyrant king at least learned how great power can be and how great evil can be. Because of the blindness of sin, God is becoming just some dude with a lot of power in the West. We can thank our past and present authoritarian figures who disobey(ed) God and seemed to get away with it or seem to be rewarded.

However, there are communities in the world where suffering at the hands of humans is perpetual, and those that are saved can see the truth more clearly. Wealthy countries could use some good missionaries from 3rd world countries, except we're so arrogant and our hearts are so hard that it wouldn't matter.
 
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Because a slave to sin cannot redeem a slave from sin. A person cannot rescue another person to a higher place than the rescuer has himself. Only someone untainted with sin can rescue another from sin.

But God did sin, didn't he? What is sin if not disobedience to the commandments? Do you not know the commandment, "The son shall not be put to death for the sins of the father and vice versa"? But God did execute David's son for David's sins. In fact God tortured the newborn before killing him.

If you want to do a patented apologist back flip midair 1080° with the perfectly stuck landing and say that the laws do not apply to God, then we're done! The laws don't apply to God, so he can just forgive us. He does not have to be just if the laws don't apply to him.

So back to the title of the thread... why did Jesus have to die?

Anything tainted with sin can only die; nothing can ever be untainted after it has been tainted with sin. The payment for our sin is death of the body, and death of our spirit (being in hell).

So then... Jesus did not actually atone for our sins, did he?


You seem to be disavowing hell. The wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid this wage for us by dying in this life and not in the next. So if he paid our wages by a physical death, then I am left to believe that old expression that hell is the grave. If hell exists, Jesus would need to suffer eternal conscious torment to pay our debt - provided, of course, that the notion of substitutional atonement is coherent in the first place.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Because of the blindness of sin, God is becoming just some dude with a lot of power in the West.

Why do you think that is? It's easy to scapegoat "secularism" and other bogeymen. I have another theory as to why many have been turning away from the Church and having problematic views about God: the problem is within the Church itself. Not "liberal" churches, not "liberal" Christians.

It is the abuse of religion for power, pride, and as a tool of fear. There are churches which adopt authoritarian models of religion, and never considering the possibility that it is this very authoritarianism that is driving people away because such authoritarianism obscures the preaching of the Gospel almost entirely and so people aren't hearing the Gospel, they are hearing the Law, and then hearing the Law preached as though it were Gospel.

I suppose I've made a mistake in merely talking about the problem of Penal Substitution as though it is only a matter of appearance or presentation; let me be more forthright: the problem of Penal Substitution isn't that people simply get a problematic idea--it's that Penal Substitution is, at its heart, a fundamentally flawed theological doctrine.

It may be the doctrine de jure of 20th and 21st century Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism, but these (Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism) do not define Christianity in this or any other age. And the peculiarities of this modern, novel fringe movement of Protestantism do not represent the historic doctrines of the Christian Church.

We can scapegoat as much as we want, but the reality is that the poor image of Christians in the modern west, and the problematic views about Christianity, and the problematic views of Christians themselves are not because there are nefarious forces at work in our culture to inculcate people against the Church--the problem is very much the one in the mirror. Because the Gospel hasn't been being preached, people have instead been hearing Moralistic teachings as though they were Gospel, "You need to do this, then God will accept you" the "this" is many things, "Get right with God", "Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior", etc. But that's not the Gospel. The Gospel is not a commandment to be obeyed, the Gospel is the gracious word of God that declares His unfettered and unconditional love for the world which is poured out in absolute abundance through Christ who offers Himself for the world upon the cross and redeems the world by His rising again, lifting a broken and crippled world out from death into the hope of resurrection. The Gospel isn't something that is meaningful only if we "accept it", the Gospel is what it is and says what it says regardless of our feelings or response--and if we actually believe what we read in Scripture then we should confess that the Gospel is, in fact, efficacious itself in bringing faith to us, "for faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ". As Martin Luther rightly declares in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us."

And if it sounds like I'm pitting an historically and traditional Lutheran perspective against a modern Evangelical one, then that's because I am.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Then what was accomplished by the crucifixion?
 
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So essentially, there is no universal agreement on the core principle of the Christian faith?

Also, on Christus Victory Theory, is faith required to benefit from the sacrifice? Why or why not? Also, how does a human sacrifice defeat evil?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So essentially, there is no universal agreement on the core principle of the Christian faith?

How to explain the Mystery of the Atonement has never been a "core principle" of the Christian faith; the core ideas of Christianity are pretty well agreed upon as contained in the historic Creeds. There has never been a dogmatic statement on any one Theory of the Atonement--what is agreed upon is the Atonement itself--that Christ reconciles the world to God.

Also, on Christus Victory Theory, is faith required to benefit from the sacrifice? Why or why not?

That's not really germane to Christus Victor itself, as Christus Victor is about the significance of the Atonement itself; this question is really more of a soteriological one and depends on one's soteriological view. As a Lutheran I subscribe to the Lutheran teaching of Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone; the quote from the Large Catechism in my previous post largely covers the Lutheran position: Christ's work is appropriated to us by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace (i.e. the preaching of the Gospel) which creates and grants faith to us apart from ourselves. Faith is the gift which God creates in us through which He appropriates Christ's work and His gifts; faith here is something that comes from outside ourselves, from God. Insofar as it is God who works faith in us by the preaching of the Gospel, apart from our own will or efforts, and it is faith through which we benefit from the promises of the Gospel then yes faith is required. Because faith is God's work in us to make us His own, unite us Christ, etc.

As a disclaimer: This should not be taken to mean that any who don't have faith, such as those who have never heard the Gospel, are damned. That isn't what is meant by faith is required. Lutheran theology makes a big deal about confessing what is normative, ordinary, and revealed and trying to stay silent about what is not revealed, or what may be extraordinary. A Lutheran, for example, can't say that unbaptized or unborn children aren't saved because we have no basis to say anything one way or the other on such a topic. But that faith is the working of God in us to turn us toward Himself in His own kindness by the power of the Gospel, that is what is revealed and that which we can affirm in the positive as a statement of faith.

Also, how does a human sacrifice defeat evil?

A human sacrifice doesn't defeat evil. But the Christian teaching on the Harrowing of Hell is that Christ--on account of Who He is--has destroyed the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil. In death Christ died, and swallowed up in death descended into Hades and there despoiled it.

St. John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily is helpful in articulating this particular Christian doctrine:

"He has destroyed death by undergoing death.
He has despoiled hell by descending into hell.
He vexed it even as it tasted of His flesh.
Isaiah foretold this when he cried:
Hell was filled with bitterness when it met Thee face to face below;
filled with bitterness, for it was brought to nothing;
filled with bitterness, for it was mocked;
filled with bitterness, for it was overthrown;
filled with bitterness, for it was put in chains.
Hell received a body, and encountered God. It received earth, and confronted heaven.
O death, where is your sting?
O hell, where is your victory?

Christ is risen! And you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is risen! And the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is risen! And the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen! And life is liberated!
Christ is risen! And the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
"

The idea here is rooted in the doctrine of the Incarnation, St. Gregory Nazianzus states, "Whatever is not assumed is not healed", what has been united to Christ's Deity is healed--therefore Christ, being completely human, completely heals humanity. Thus in dying Christ-God participates and unites Himself to human death, in dying therefore He submits Himself to our universal mortal fate: Death. It is in His rising that He defeats death, because He has conquered it. He is swallowed up in death and then three days later defeated it. And therefore, in Him, by our sharing in Him, we have the promise that we will likewise be raised up. That is the Christian hope, the future resurrection of the body.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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-57

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I agree. I want you to tell how it works. Many people do not understand.
I sinned, I will die(pay price). It is Justice. So, why does Jesus have to pay for my sins if I will pay for them anyway by dying?

You will never be able to payoff the debt. Jesus being God from eternity past can.
 
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JackRT

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God was around Satan in the book of Job.

Job is a fiction, a sort of parable on a large scale, that addressed a particular belief at a particular time in history. The Satan in this story is clearly an angel in God's heavenly court. He is not an evil figure in this story. Unwelcome perhaps but not evil. It was centuries later that Satan became conflated with Lucifer and even the Serpent.
 
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Greg J.

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It is the abuse of religion for power, pride, and as a tool of fear. ...
Yep. I count these as done by "past and present authoritarian figures." People are not choosing 100% devotion to God, which would (painfully) transform them out of such mentalities. We're learning from too many humans!
I agree. However, people who hear the gospel then tend to want to know if they are saved or not, and we have a rich and varied history of trying to figure that out and explain it. It's not a focus we should have, but it becomes a stumbling block that must be resolved for many people.
 
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Greg J.

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Every question in this post means you haven't understood or accepted what I wrote or something major in Christianity. Every assertion is based on lack of understanding. There's no value in me writing more.
 
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-57

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Being an atheist I understand you need to look at it that way...But, there are other ways to look at it.
Gills commentary says this about the subject:
"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die; which would be a visible testimony of God's displeasure at his sin, to all men that should hear of it, and know it; and being taken away in such a manner would be a great affliction to him, and the more as his affections were much towards the child, as appears by what follows; or otherwise the removal of it might have been considered as a mercy, since its life would have kept up the remembrance of the sin, and have been a standing reproach to him."
 
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Alla27

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You will never be able to payoff the debt. Jesus being God from eternity past can.
If I die I will payoff the debt completely because the only payment for any sin is death. It is Justice of God. But then Mercy will be completely robbed.
So, Heavenly Father knows if I pay for my debt completely by dying forever He will do Justice but He will rob Mercy. Can God rob Mercy?
So, how does the atonement work? (I think we are getting closer to the answer).


P.S. I am a sinner. I will pay for my debt when I die. Death is the penalty. It is Justice of God.
Someone may ask: why don't Father just forgives Alla? The answer is this: if Father does forgive me then He will ROB Justice. Can God rob Justice?
how does the atonement work?
 
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