Why did Jesus need to die?

[miknik5]

By the way and again:

THE BRIDEGROOM
Is very much alive

And the BRIDE waits for their BRIDEGROOM

 

[miknik5]

Well even in this the parable of the virgins will be made manifest

Some will be ready. And their EVER readiness is indicative of their love for their BRIDEGROOM

While those virgins who had to rush around at the last hour will make manifest by their lack of readiness that their BEIDEGROOMS return was not EVER and always in their hearts and minds

 

[miknik5]

Abraham's sacrifice was again a "reenactment" which GOD , in HIS WISDOM, understanding our limited humanity that we need lower signs and representatiins to understand HIS HIGHER and HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS provided Abraham in service to the nations who would through the PRE PROMISED sacrifice of THE ONE and ONLY SON look back and understand that GOD was not pointing to Isaac but to HIS SON through whom those who would believe would inherit the PROMISE

 

[miknik5]

By the way. Moses wife circumcised their son


Look into it and listen to her very prophetic words

 

[miknik5]

GOD throughout His WORD has not kept silent

 

[miknik5]

I don't even know where to begin to point you to all the lower signs which pointed to CHRIST

Other than to say:

The testimony (truth/witness) of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy

 

[miknik5]

Joseph had a lovely garment

It's how HIS own father recognized his son

And Noah. Well when HE sinned?

Thankfully two or his three sons covered his nakedness

 

[miknik5]

By the way. The garment though washed in HIS BLOOD is seen as .....white

HOLY,clean,pure,washed

See the mentioning of the white robes in revelation

 

[Tree of Life]

OK, but in your answer we discussed a man whose house was carelessly burnt down, and you acknowledged that he could just forgive the one who was careless. That one example seems to override the universal need for some sort of payment before there can be forgiveness.

It appears you've not understood the analogy. If the rich man "just forgives" then it is the rich man that pays. He pays the loss of his house. He pays for the cost of a new house. Payment is still necessary, it's just the rich man who's doing the paying.

OK, God decided set up a covenant that, where there is sin, there is death. And he fulfills that covenant by providing the death.

If the rich man in our illustration can "just forgive" the man who was careless, why cannot God choose to do the same? The answer seems to be that God decided to make the rules--"the covenant"--in such a way that it is necessary. But God could have decided otherwise.

So why did God decide on the covenant that, if there is sin, there must be a dead body?

God can set the terms of our relationship with him any way that he pleases. He is our creator and graciously provides everything that we have. The terms that he set were very generous - "Obey me and I will provide you with life and peace. Disobey me and I will take away life and peace." The only thing that we can do is to gratefully accept whatever terms that God sets. We, as creatures, are in no bargaining position to question his terms.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

because the forgiveness of sin requires the shedding of blood.

Same question as in the OP: why?

This is a "rule", that was installed by this God. It has to be, since he's the one who made these rules, criteria, plan, etc.

So why must blood be shed, before forgiveness can take place?

For me personally, when I wish to forgive someone who wronged me in some way, I'll just forgive that person, without requiring blood shedding of any kind.

So if I can do it, why can't this all powerfull being do it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Justice requires a price to be paid.

That's irrelevant. We aren't talking about justice, we are talking about forgiveness.

In case you haven't noticed yet, "forgiveness" is the suspension of justice.
In true justice, there is no forgiveness. In justice, one is responsible for his / her own wrongdoings.

When that person is forgiven, justice has been bypassed.
And I'ld posit that having someone else pay the price, is the very opposite of justice - whereas forgiveness is merely the suspension thereof.

But let's be clear on this: when JUSTICE is served, the wrongdoer is being held responsible. Not a scapegoat. And when JUSTICE is served, there is no forgiveness or mercy either.

Would it be just for a judge to "just forgive" someone just convicted of murder?

No. Just like it wouldn't be "just" if the prison sentence was being carried out by anyone but the murderer.

I'm not sure when the trend started to feel compassion for criminals instead of the victims. Don't only look at the criminal, look at the victims and the crime's effect on other people. Crimes destroy people and society as they knew it.

Yep. All the more reason to punish the actual guilty instead of merely showing mercy, or even worse: punishing a scapegoat.

Would your perspective be any different if one of your family members was the victim of a senseless crime?

My perspective is always the same: do the time if you did the crime.

In the case of our sins, God couldn't forgive without the proper price being paid because it would have been unjust.

The only "just" outcome is to hold the wrongdoers responsible for their actions. Not "forgiveness" and most certainlty not "punishing a scapegoat".

That is part of his eternal nature, not really something he chose (from our perspective).

Didn't this God set up the system, the plan and the rules?

The reason Jesus could be our kinsman-redeemer was because that was acceptable payment in God's nature.

Then this God is an unjust dude who believes that one can be absolved of his responsabilities by shedding blood in sacrifice.

Sounds pretty barbarian and bronze-age like. Which is kind of unsurprising, considering the time and culture where these stories were developed.

 

[Chriliman]

John 5:19
"Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

Jesus' self-giving death is God taking responsibility for His creation and ultimately making things right through self-sacrificing love.

John 14:9
"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

 

[Greg J.]

If y'all want to use words like "justice" and "forgiveness" I suggest you learn what they mean first from a study of Scripture, instead of applying the modern meaning, your culture's meaning, or the meaning that seems the most right to you. There's LOTS of Scripture that doesn't seem right at first.

If you are disagreeing with what you see in Scripture, you have bigger problems than word definitions.

These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. (Colossians 2:22, 1984 NIV)

For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. (Romans 10:2, 1984 NIV)

Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. (Romans 2:2, 1984 NIV)

You are setting yourself over whoever expressed what you disagree with. It's an infinitely better learning path to assume you don't understand Scripture and persist in seeking Jesus for answers.

... Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. (1 Corinthians 8:1b-3, 1984 NIV)

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yes HE is sir. Omnipotent

That's why it's a

WEDDING!

Most often (well in truth it should be all the time) a covenant relationship such as this is based solely on

looooooooooove

Omnipotent. Got it. He makes the rules. So why did he make up this rule that says he cannot forgive unless his son is killed?

 

[doubtingmerle]

God can set the terms of our relationship with him any way that he pleases.

Suppose so. But if he decides that he won't forgive unless his son dies, and then his son dies, that is hardly a sacrifice. In that case, he could have decided to forgive without his son dying.

Imagine you hurt somebody and want forgiveness. The offended person says he won't forgive you until he hits his head with a hammer. He then hits his head with a hammer. Do you than admire him for taking that hammer blow for you? Nah, he could have just said he would forgive without getting hit with a hammer. The hammer blow did no good, so that is hardly something to admire.

 

[Tree of Life]

Suppose so. But if he decides that he won't forgive unless his son dies, and then his son dies, that is hardly a sacrifice. In that case, he could have decided to forgive without his son dying.

Imagine you hurt somebody and want forgiveness. The offended person says he won't forgive you until he hits his head with a hammer. He then hits his head with a hammer. Do you than admire him for taking that hammer blow for you? Nah, he could have just said he would forgive without getting hit with a hammer. The hammer blow did no good, so that is hardly something to admire.

Your example is arbitrary and senseless whereas our covenant relationship with God makes perfect sense.

Think about it this way. When you ask: "Why does God require a substitutionary death in order to forgive me?" you are basically asking: "Why does God have a Law?"

God's Law is a legitimate law and, as such, has penalties attached to violations of said law. Philosophers of law have long noted that a law without a penalty is no law at all - it's just words. The penalty attached to violating God's law is death. So if we have violated his law then the curse of death hangs over our heads. Jesus, our substitute, has stood in our place to take this curse for us. Our crimes are not reckoned to our account - but to his. So our crimes are justly punished according to God's Law. But we receive grace because Jesus, the mediator, has taken our place in punishment.

To ask: "Why did God set it up this way? Couldn't God have setup the universe in a different way?" Is basically to dispense with the concept of law altogether. You may as well ask: "Why can't the US government just forgive me if I commit a crime? Why is it necessary that I serve jail time?"

 

[doubtingmerle]

Philosophers of law have long noted that a law without a penalty is no law at all - it's just words. The penalty attached to violating God's law is death.

That's the penalty for a child stealing a cookie? Death? Why wouldn't God make reasonable penalties?

Show me a nation on earth that would accept a governor giving up his son to death as payment for the penalty for someone who has committed a capital crime. Show me a nation that would accept killing the governor's son, and letting the criminal go free. No nation would consider that justice.

What you are talking about simply has no relation to anything we know about law. No law allows the death of somebody else in the case of a capital crime.

 

[Grafted In]

Doubtingmerle, what with your intense anger at God I have to wonder who hurt you so bad, a priest ?
I have never witnessed a deeper hatred for the things if God than you openly display. On the one hand you are lost and without God. on the other I feel deeply sorry for you.

But there's still hope. today us the day, now is the time. Repent and believe The Gospel and Jesus Christ will welcome you with open arms. and I'm sure there are many on CF who would jump for joy.

 

[miknik5]

Omnipotent. Got it. He makes the rules. So why did he make up this rule that says he cannot forgive unless his son is killed?

You truncate the GOSPEL

Because only one could willingly lay down HIS LIFE so as to take it up again

Only one can enter into the HOLY ORESENCE of GOD and mediate between GOD and man and bring the two together

Because ONE party (of the COVENANT) is HOLY

The other party isn't

 

[doubtingmerle]

Grafted In,

I have explained this to you over and over.

I have not been hurt by a priest. I am not angry at God.

Please, please refrain from personal attacks.

Doubtingmerle, what with your intense anger at God I have to wonder who hurt you so bad, a priest ? I have never witnessed a deeper hatred for the things if God than you openly display. On the one hand you are lost and without God. on the other I feel deeply sorry for you.

But there's still hope. today us the day, now is the time. Repent and believe The Gospel and Jesus Christ will welcome you with open arms. and I'm sure there are many on CF who would jump for joy.