Why did Jesus need to die?

[miknik5]

And I responded that you seem to be referring to the resurrection, and that I am actually talking about the resurrection in another thread. So why go through all of that again? Is any of that relevant to the topic of this thread.

Let's stick to the topic. Do you have anything more that is relevant as to why Christ died?

Because you are truncating the TRUTH of GOD's WORD

You are only offering half of HIS WORD and half of HIS WORD is no different than adding to HIS WORD

No different than the age old liar offering more or distorting or changing or suggesting or taking away from and therefore suggesting something different than what has been given us by GOD

Romans 10 says that if you believe not only in CHRIST but that GOD raised HIM up you shall be saved

Not one or the other and not one separate from the other

 

[doubtingmerle]

You are only offering half of HIS WORD and half of HIS WORD is no different than adding to HIS WORD

What half am I missing?

It does no good to go around saying I am missing half, without saying what half I am missing. What am I missing?

 

[Alla27]

Let's say I am in debt prison PAYING for my own debt.
Let's say that there is someone who LOVES me and has COMPASSION for me.
Let's say he is willing to pay my debt so I can be free again.
Let's say there is another one who hates me and wants to see me in debt prison forever. He also hates the one who is willing to pay my debt.
Let's say that the one who loves me paid off my debt which is $1,000,000
Let's say the one who loves me KNOWS that the evil is going to kill him right after he pays my debt($1,000,000) and saves me from debt prison. The evil one wants my savior to suffer more. He wants to kill him for saving me. Then he killed him

I can say: "my savoir DIED for me". Why can I say this? Because my savior knew that if he saves me by paying my debt $1,000,000 he will be killed by the evil one. He knew he will be killed but he did save me anyway.
Yes, I can say: "he died for me".
But was his death a requirement to save me from my debt? or was a payment of $1,000,000 the requirement to save me from my debt?

what is the atonement? is it "to die" or "is it to pay $1,000,000(DEBT)"?

 

[miknik5]

What half am I missing?

It does no good to go around saying I am missing half, without saying what half I am missing. What am I missing?

The resurrection which you say is in "another thtead" therefore should not be mentioned here

As if to mention it is what would cause confusion

 

[Grafted In]

Doubtingmerle, for a Christian, what God says is the way it is. You don't have to like it, you may even despise it, but it is what it is. I have to admit there are times I don't want things to be His way, but no matter what, He is I Am and things will be just as he wants them to be. No amount of pleading with Him will change His mind. That is the reality we all must face.
But let me ask you this, would you rather die with your present opinions of God or would you rather die accepting His way, which is eternal life. The choice is all yours to make. Others in Christ cannot make the decision for you.
You'll get what you choose if you suddenly died tomorrow.

I recall you once writing something to the effect "the Christianity I came from...". would you mind telling us about that?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The resurrection which you say is in "another thtead" therefore should not be mentioned here

As if to mention it is what would cause confusion

Does the resurrection have anything to do with the topic of this thread, that is, why jesus needed to die? If so, what does it say about why jesus needed to die? Or is it just a diversion in an attempt to hijack the thread off topic?

 

[miknik5]

Does the resurrection have anything to do with the question of this threa

Does the resurrection have anything to do with the topic of this thread, that is, why jesus needed to die? If so, what does it say about why jesus needed to die? Or is it just a diversion in an attempt to hijack the thread off topic?

Life is in the blood
And those who have LIFE are marked by the blood of the ONE who is our LIFE

GOD sees HIS SON. HE looks upon those who have believed and HE sees those whose "houses" are marked and covered by HIS BLOOD

 

[miknik5]

HIS BLOOD is our COVERING because HE by HIS BLOOD entered in for us and lives forever to make intercession for all those who come to HIM through faith in HIS BLOOD

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You're trying to answer two questions with an analogy designed to only answer one. My analogy answers the question: "Why can't God simply forgive? Why is payment necessary?"

If I were to pickup on your version of my analogy then we must say that there's nothing you can do to make things right with the rich man. The only way for reconciliation to be possible is if the rich man forgives you or if another arises who will pay to restore what you destroyed. Let's say that this rich man's son is your dear friend and he decides, out of pity, to pay your debt to his father out of his own inheritance.

Again, this is an analogy. Stretching it to talk about "killing the rich man's son" would miss the singular point that the analogy is trying to make. Forgiveness always costs the offended party something.

How the death of the son of God could be a payment for our sins is a different question.

No, forgiveness does NOT always cost the offended party something. It is the offense that requires the forgiveness that can cost the offended party. The forgiving is simple and free. It might, however, be unwise if the offender has not repented; there is also the possibility of others taking note of the results and deciding they can offend without consequences.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Life is in the blood
And those who have LIFE are marked by the blood of the ONE who is our LIFE

GOD sees HIS SON. HE looks upon those who have believed and HE sees those whose "houses" are marked and covered by HIS BLOOD

Yes yes, we all know that. We want to know WHY. Why does God need blood in order to forgive? After all, you and I can forgive without needing blood. Are we stronger and better than God?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Yes yes, we all know that. We want to know WHY. Why does God need blood in order to forgive? After all, you and I can forgive without needing blood. Are we stronger and better than God?

The substitution of Christ for us an taking our penalty is one traditional way of looking at His death on the cross. There are other ways.

There is the identification picture. Christ becomes one with us. He identifies with us in spite of our sin. And because of that identification, He even takes on our death. But that means we take on His resurrection.

There is the acceptance of the penalty picture. God freely forgives some of us. But in doing so He comes to be liable to a penalty. In the same way a person involved in civil disobedience who accepts the penalty of law for a higher cause, God accepts His own death on the cross in the higher cause of taking the penalty for forgiving us of our sin.

 

[miknik5]

Yes yes, we all know that. We want to know WHY. Why does God need blood in order to forgive? After all, you and I can forgive without needing blood. Are we stronger and better than God?

Nope. We are not stronger and better

And that is why GOD only accepts ONE COVERING

 

[miknik5]

In the first Passover the people were told to mark their houses

Rehab was told to tie a
red ribbon and not to leave her house

If she did, she would be responsible for her own (imperfect, unholy) blood

 

[doubtingmerle]

Doubtingmerle, for a Christian, what God says is the way it is.

Fair enough, but I can't think of a reliable way to know what God says. Can you?

I recall you once writing something to the effect "the Christianity I came from...". would you mind telling us about that?

Sure. Started life as a Mennonite, then IFCA (e.g. John MacArthur) in high school, and hard-core Independent Baptist (Sword of the Lord) in college. Then back to a period in the IFCA with apathy followed by a long stretch in Evangelical Christianity. For the last 14 years I have not been a Christian.

 

[miknik5]

What does IFCA stand for?

 

[doubtingmerle]

What does IFCA stand for?

Independent Fundamental Churches of America.

 

[miknik5]

Independent Fundamental Churches of America.

Are you sure that identifies John MacArthur

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Nope. We are not stronger and better

And that is why GOD only accepts ONE COVERING

Sorry, I don't see any connection there that explains "why". Like, for example, I used the umbrella. why? because it kept me dry when I went outside in the rain. And we could talk about the way it is constructed that makes falling drops keep off my head and shoulders.

Now . . . . the covering . . . . why? How does it work? Why is it needed?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Are you sure that identifies John MacArthur

Yes, MacArthur was a member of the IFCA when I was part of it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Fundamental_Churches_of_America .

 

[miknik5]

Sorry, I don't see any connection there that explains "why". Like, for example, I used the umbrella. why? because it kept me dry when I went outside in the rain. And we could talk about the way it is constructed that makes falling drops keep off my head and shoulders.

Now . . . . the covering . . . . why? How does it work? Why is it needed?

Because GOD is HOLY

And throughout HIS WORD HE showed HIMSELF as HOLY

No man could just come up into the presence without GOD calling and..Consecrating

Moses was called to come up but the people had to stand back. They couldn't even approach the mountain lest HE break out upon them