Why did Jesus need to die?

[bling]

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And if we see an innocent person suffering, that gives us the same level of punishment as if we are punished?

Then why send people to jail? Why not just ask them to watch a movie of human suffering, and send them home?

I do not see how reading about the crucifixion is the same level of punishment as eternal torture in hell.





And you are telling me that reading the gospel story to you is as much punishment to you as spending eternity in eternal flames, so therefore you have received your full punishment?

I am sorry, I think a conscious eternity in fire is worse punishment.


Sin requires a huge punishment, so huge that you need to read a story about somebody dying for your sins? When you have understood that story, you have become punished in full?

I am sorry, but I do not understand how one could claim that understanding that story counts as payment in full.









And in your parable, when the son is killed for his weak father's crime, is that not justice either? And if Jesus is killed for your sins, is that not justice either?

So are you saying that salvation is possible, only if somebody else is treated unjustly?

You deserve a huge punishment, and understanding the gospel story is equivalent to that huge punishment?

Interesting. So you have already endured as much punishment as the man who has been screaming in flames with no relief for hundreds of years?





Let me reword my question:

If a man commits a crime, and the wrong man is unjustly tortured, humiliated, bares his crime, and is murdered, does the criminal then feel that he has been punished? Can the criminal then go free?

I replied to all this in post 45, so are you working on a response?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Punishment and value are not necessarily mutually exclusive things. You are valuable because you're a creation of God.

And if I drop off into hell, then I will scream in pain forever with no possibility of parole, no possible escape, and no moment of anethesia? And you will tell me that I richly deserve to be treated that way?

It is hard to see how you can tell me I richly deserve to be treated that way, and then tell me I am valuable.

God judges your sin, not because you are worthless, but because His holy law demands it.

Do you agree with the law that condemns unbelievers forever without parole? Or would you write that law a little differently if you had a chance?

I addressed you as "dear sir" after you addressed me in this way in your last post to me.

I addressed you as "dear sir" because I wanted to recognize you as a worthy person worthy of respectful treatment. Rest assured that if you were burning in hell, and I could do something to stop it, I would intervene. I would not think you richly deserved what was happening to you.

If I was burning eternally in hell, and you could do something to stop it, would you intervene? If so, why would you do this, but your God would not?

I would tell him that the open, loving arms of His Heavenly Father await if he'll only humble himself before his Maker, repent of his sin, and embrace the gift of salvation God offers to every person.

And believe the first four books of the New Testament are historical?

Here is the problem: I have analyzed the first four books of the New Testament, and have concluded they are not historical. Since I have come to that conclusion, many Christians conclude that there is absolutely nothing that will keep me out of hell unless I truthfully say I believe they are true. It is impossible for a person to truthfully say he believes something he does not believe.

Why do you think King David isn't speaking plainly in the Psalms from which Paul draws his quotation? (Ps. 14:1-3; 53:1-3) It seems to me King David is doing just that.

Those passages only say certain people are not good. They do not declare that all people are not good. Paul uses them to mean something different from the original meaning, yes?

 

[Steffenfield]

Blind post.

In my humbled opinion, because God is of infinite worth, anything wronged against Him is deserving of infinite punishment.

Anyway, I'm so happy Jesus came along to carry this burden for us.

 

[aiki]

And if I drop off into hell, then I will scream in pain forever with no possibility of parole, no possible escape, and no moment of anethesia?

I'm sure you won't enjoy it, that's for sure! You know, no one has to have this experience; God has made a way to escape it and that way is available to everyone.

And you will tell me that I richly deserve to be treated that way?

That's what God says to us in His Word. He thinks your sin is very much worse than you think it is.

It is hard to see how you can tell me I richly deserve to be treated that way, and then tell me I am valuable.

I don't understand why you think your value as a creation of God should exempt you from His judgment of your sin. A purebred husky may have great value as a sled dog, but if it savages every human who comes near it, it will be put down. A nuclear plant may have great value as a means of producing energy, but if it has a meltdown it is immediately abandoned. A large oak may have great value as a shade tree, but if it falls on your house, it is terribly destructive and must be chopped up and disposed of. We have, as humans, great value as creations of God, but when we sin, God must judge and punish that sin according to His perfect holiness and justice.

Do you agree with the law that condemns unbelievers forever without parole? Or would you write that law a little differently if you had a chance?

Well, now you're trying to judge God's standards by your own. This isn't going to work because of the immeasurable differences between you. Until you are as God is, you will never be able to fully and correctly assess His ways.

I addressed you as "dear sir" because I wanted to recognize you as a worthy person worthy of respectful treatment. Rest assured that if you were burning in hell, and I could do something to stop it, I would intervene. I would not think you richly deserved what was happening to you.

The amazing thing is, that although God does think we richly deserve Hell, He has still, at terrible cost to Himself, made a way for us avoid it. Now that is incredible, I think!

If I was burning eternally in hell, and you could do something to stop it, would you intervene? If so, why would you do this, but your God would not?

But God has made a way for you to avoid Hell altogether! Christians refer to this way as the Gospel, or Good News. You seem to have taken it into your head that God desires the destruction of people in Hell, but this is exactly the opposite of the truth! He would have all men to be saved - if only they wanted to be saved!

Here is the problem: I have analyzed the first four books of the New Testament, and have concluded they are not historical. Since I have come to that conclusion, many Christians conclude that there is absolutely nothing that will keep me out of hell unless I truthfully say I believe they are true. It is impossible for a person to truthfully say he believes something he does not believe.

Well, that is a problem - a very serious one - for you.

Those passages only say certain people are not good. They do not declare that all people are not good. Paul uses them to mean something different from the original meaning, yes?

Actually, they do say all people are not good:

Psalms 14:2-3
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Psalms 53:2-3
2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Selah.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Aiki, let's begin with the question you have not answered:

If I was burning eternally in hell, and you could do something to stop it, would you intervene? If so, why would you do this, but your God would not?

​

Will you please answer that question. Telling me that you or God would do something before I got to hell is not an answer. I am not asking if you would do something before I got to hell. I am asking, if I was already in hell screaming in unbearable pain and you could help, would you do something?

I have already told you that I would help you if you were in that situation. But you have not told me if you would help me.

And no, I am not asking you to judge God. I am asking you if you have any opinion on this question. If you saw me already in hell suffering unimaginable torment, and you could do something to help, would you?

I'm sure you won't enjoy it, that's for sure! You know, no one has to have this experience; God has made a way to escape it and that way is available to everyone.

And yet you have offered no possible way of escape for the person who studies Mark 13-16 and the historical facts of that time period and concludes that those chapters are fiction. You have offered absolutely no way for such a person to escape hell, have you? If a person really, truly, honestly has come to the conclusion that those 3 chapters are fiction, then is there anything at all such a person could do to escape hell? Pretending to believe or faking belief obviously wouldn't work. There is nothing at all that you can suggest that I do, is there?

Here is the problem: I have analyzed the first four books of the New Testament, and have concluded they are not historical. Since I have come to that conclusion, many Christians conclude that there is absolutely nothing that will keep me out of hell unless I truthfully say I believe they are true. It is impossible for a person to truthfully say he believes something he does not believe.

Well, that is a problem - a very serious one - for you.

I see.

So for me there is no way of escape the eternal torment you describe.

It comes down to a true or false question on a history exam. Here is the first question on the exam.

1. True or False The events of Mark 13-16 happened as recorded.

My thorough analysis of this question leads me to conclude that the best answer to this question is false. Therefore, you know of nothing I can do to escape the eternal torment of hell that you say I richly deserve, do you?

I don't understand why you think your value as a creation of God should exempt you from His judgment of your sin.

I never said anything about wanting to be exempted from judgment.

I don't understand why your words say that I think my value as a creation of God should exempt me from His judgment. I never said anything remotely close to that. Are you making this stuff up?

What I said is that I do not think that I richly deserve to suffer eternal conscious torment in hell without the possibility of ever ending the suffering.

A purebred husky may have great value as a sled dog, but if it savages every human who comes near it, it will be put down.

A purebred husky that goes wild does not deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity.

If you could capture that purebred husky and hold his paw on a hot frying pan for an hour, would you do it? Would you ignore his yelps as you let him suffer? Or would you "put him down"?

And yet the purebred husky in your illustration deserves at worst to be "put down".

But I am hearing you say that I deserve far worse than that. I am hearing you say that I do not deserve the mercy we would give to the purebred husky.

Why does the purebred husky get mercy, and not the soul who has ended up in hell? Why is the dog merely "put down", but nobody is allowed to end the suffering of the man who is already in hell?

 

[steve_bakr]

Aiki, let's begin with the question you have not answered:
If I was burning eternally in hell, and you could do something to stop it, would you intervene? If so, why would you do this, but your God would not?

Will you please answer that question. Telling me that you or God would do something before I got to hell is not an answer. I am not asking if you would do something before I got to hell. I am asking, if I was already in hell screaming in unbearable pain and you could help, would you do something?

I have already told you that I would help you if you were in that situation. But you have not told me if you would help me.

And no, I am not asking you to judge God. I am asking you if you have any opinion on this question. If you saw me already in hell suffering unimaginable torment, and you could do something to help, would you?

And yet you have offered no possible way of escape for the person who studies Mark 13-16 and the historical facts of that time period and concludes that those chapters are fiction. You have offered absolutely no way for such a person to escape hell, have you? If a person really, truly, honestly has come to the conclusion that those 3 chapters are fiction, then is there anything at all such a person could do to escape hell? Pretending to believe or faking belief obviously wouldn't work. There is nothing at all that you can suggest that I do, is there?

I see.

So for me there is no way of escape the eternal torment you describe.

It comes down to a true or false question on a history exam. Here is the first question on the exam.

1. True or False The events of Mark 13-16 happened as recorded.

My thorough analysis of this question leads me to conclude that the best answer to this question is false. Therefore, you know of nothing I can do to escape the eternal torment of hell that you say I richly deserve, do you?

I never said anything about wanting to be exempted from judgment.

I don't understand why your words say that I think my value as a creation of God should exempt me from His judgment. I never said anything remotely close to that. Are you making this stuff up?

What I said is that I do not think that I richly deserve to suffer eternal conscious torment in hell without the possibility of ever ending the suffering.

A purebred husky that goes wild does not deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity.

If you could capture that purebred husky and hold his paw on a hot frying pan for an hour, would you do it? Would you ignore his yelps as you let him suffer? Or would you "put him down"?

And yet the purebred husky in your illustration deserves at worst to be "put down".

But I am hearing you say that I deserve far worse than that. I am hearing you say that I do not deserve the mercy we would give to the purebred husky.

Why does the purebred husky get mercy, and not the soul who has ended up in hell? Why is the dog merely "put down", but nobody is allowed to end the suffering of the man who is already in hell?

You're still at it. Are you posing these questions out of genuine concern or are you just trying to stump Christians? Some of your questions only God can answer. Do you believe in God?

You suggested earlier that you were debating to keep your mind sharp. Is that the whole truth or are you searching for something? You said you were at peace. Are you, really? There are lots of ways to keep your mind sharp, but you seem to choose to debate with Christians.

BTW, there are some Christians in CF who profess to believe that hell is not eternal. They believe that ultimately all souls are saved. Some of the early Church Fathers believed that there could be salvation after death. Why are you not exploring these alternatives?

I am surprised that you question the crucifixion of Jesus because it is one of the events that even secular scholars agree on. How about the teachings of Jesus, do you believe in them? Perhaps that can be a starting point for you. Do you believe that Jesus healed people?

Have you read, On Being A Christian, by Hans Kung? That would be quite an exercise for you. How about, Summa Theologica, by Thomas Aquinas? The works of St. Augustine? These are very good reads for an intellectual like yourself.

Peace

 

[aiki]

Aiki, let's begin with the question you have not answered:If I was burning eternally in hell, and you could do something to stop it, would you intervene? If so, why would you do this, but your God would not?

If you were burning in hell it would be because the Judge of All has put you there. I would not presume to know better than He whether or not you deserve to be there. I would not, then, attempt to extract you from the punishment God has rendered upon you. I would, though, be violently disturbed at witnessing the torment of any in such a place. Who wouldn't be?

You seem determined not to acknowledge that no one has to go to hell. As C.S. Lewis has noted, "the door to hell is locked from the inside." God has made a way to escape the punishment of hell, so why, when that way which He made at horrible cost to Himself, is rejected, is He obliged to alleviate the torment of those He consigns there? They had opportunity to accept a better destiny from God's hand, but they refused it. I see no reason why God is morally-bound under these circumstances to free from Hell those who have willfully chosen it.

Will you please answer that question. Telling me that you or God would do something before I got to hell is not an answer. I am not asking if you would do something before I got to hell. I am asking, if I was already in hell screaming in unbearable pain and you could help, would you do something?

I would not free you from the destiny you have willingly chosen - however awful it might be - even though my human sense of sympathy would powerfully urge me to do so. I would contravene both your choice and God's judgment in doing so, which would be utterly wrong.

And yet you have offered no possible way of escape for the person who studies Mark 13-16 and the historical facts of that time period and concludes that those chapters are fiction.

It is not up to me to offer you a possible way of escape under these circumstances. Your issue is with God, not me.

I don't see why having the view you do of Mark 13-16 necessarily precludes a belief in the Gospel. What about the other Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John?

If a person really, truly, honestly has come to the conclusion that those 3 chapters are fiction, then is there anything at all such a person could do to escape hell?

Again, why does your view of these three chapters absolutely negate any possibility of faith in Christ as your Saviour and humble confession and repentance of your sin before God?

Pretending to believe or faking belief obviously wouldn't work. There is nothing at all that you can suggest that I do, is there?

Why should there be something I can suggest?

I see.

So for me there is no way of escape the eternal torment you describe.

There is; you simply refuse to take it. You are determined to approach God on your terms, not His. You won't reach God this way.

It comes down to a true or false question on a history exam. Here is the first question on the exam.

1. True or False The events of Mark 13-16 happened as recorded.

My thorough analysis of this question leads me to conclude that the best answer to this question is false. Therefore, you know of nothing I can do to escape the eternal torment of hell that you say I richly deserve, do you?

I know this convoluted route to justifying your rejection of God's way of salvation is something you feel is necessary, but the truth is, whatever rationale you wish to erect as cause for your refusal of God's gift of salvation, it won't alter the eternal outcome. It is God's way or the Broad Way. You choose.

I never said anything about wanting to be exempted from judgment.

I don't understand why your words say that I think my value as a creation of God should exempt me from His judgment. I never said anything remotely close to that. Are you making this stuff up?

What I said is that I do not think that I richly deserve to suffer eternal conscious torment in hell without the possibility of ever ending the suffering.

Actually, you did try to draw a connection between your value as a person and God's punishment. You wrote,

It is hard to see how you can tell me I richly deserve to be treated that way, and then tell me I am valuable.

It seems implicit to me in what you wrote here that you think a person's value should have some bearing on the punishment God enacts upon them. Very clearly, it seems to me, you are asserting that God can't both value and punish someone in Hell.

A purebred husky that goes wild does not deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity.

This completely misses my point, which was to offer examples of a thing's value not precluding negative consequences.

Of course a husky does not deserve to be punished in Hell. A husky, being an animal, cannot sin against God.

If you could capture that purebred husky and hold his paw on a hot frying pan for an hour, would you do it? Would you ignore his yelps as you let him suffer? Or would you "put him down"?

See above.

But I am hearing you say that I deserve far worse than that. I am hearing you say that I do not deserve the mercy we would give to the purebred husky.

Yes, because you are morally responsible to your Maker for your actions and attitudes and the husky is not. You truly deserve the eternal torment of Hell - especially when you could have chosen an eternity with God in heaven instead.

Selah.

 

[Harry3142]

doubtingmerle-

With the Passion of Christ what we are really seeing is 'a happening within a happening'. And the person who 'killed' Jesus was none other than Jesus himself:

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father. (The Gospel of St. John 10:14-18,NIV)

This is confirmed by the details of his death:

Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (The Gospel of St. John 19:28-30,NIV)

It was obvious to the centurion who witnessed Jesus' death that something had gone terribly wrong (Mark 15:39). As a centurion who had probably witnessed many deaths of those who had been crucified, he knew what he should witness before a victim died, and none of those symptoms had appeared. Instead, Jesus had simply said that his work was done, and then went home, leaving his body behind for his followers to bury.

Even Pilate was so surprised to hear that Jesus was already dead that he insisted on having it confirmed:

It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. (The Gospel of St. Mark 15:42-45,NIV)

It is believed that Jesus' cross had a suppedaneum (a footrest) attached to it. But this was not to make its victim more comfortable; instead, it was to serve the opposite purpose, as well as satisfy the Romans' bizarre flair for the macabre. Jesus' should have lived for days while nailed to that cross, while presenting the sight to those passing by of a man writhing in agony, with the two thieves, already dead, on either side to demonstrate what his ultimate fate was to be.

With that footrest he wouldn't die of asphyxia, the most common cause of death of the victims of crucifixion. Instead, he would die of exposure, infection, dehydration, and shock. Eventually his internal organs would 'shut down', causing his death, but it was not-at-all uncommon for that process to take 3 days or longer.

And in every case no victim would have been able to speak. In the case of asphyxia the victim wouldn't be able to exhale, which would automatically preclude speaking. In the case of eventual heart failure, before that moment arrived the carotid arteries leading to the brain would dilate so much in a last-ditch effort of the brain to get enough oxygenated blood to survive that they would apply too much pressure on the larynx for the person to be able to speak.

But Jesus had spoken, and then died immediately afterward. Instead of his death's being a victory for those who opposed him, it was a resounding defeat. And the centurion was one of the first people to recognize that. Jesus had raised others from the dead, but for his final miracle before his resurrection he deliberately sent himself into the region of the dead in order to conquer death itself.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It is not up to me to offer you a possible way of escape under these circumstances. Your issue is with God, not me.

And yet you insist there is a way of escape from hell but you yourself cannot seem to think of a way that a person who does not believe that the gospels are historical can escape hell. That is your problem. You insist you have a way of escape, but cannot seem to think of one.

I don't see why having the view you do of Mark 13-16 necessarily precludes a belief in the Gospel. What about the other Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John?

Because Matthew, Luke and John probably copied from Mark. All probably recorded fiction.

Why should there be something I can suggest?

Because you say there is something an unbeliever can do to escape hell. If you claim that an escape exists, then why can't you tell us what that is?

I know this convoluted route to justifying your rejection of God's way of salvation is something you feel is necessary, but the truth is, whatever rationale you wish to erect as cause for your refusal of God's gift of salvation, it won't alter the eternal outcome.

In what way have I rejected God's way of salvation? In what way have I refused to accept this gift?

Be it formally known that if eternal torture in hell exists, and if God gives away free passes to avoid hell, then I accept that gift.

It seems implicit to me in what you wrote here that you think a person's value should have some bearing on the punishment God enacts upon them. Very clearly, it seems to me, you are asserting that God can't both value and punish someone in Hell.

What I said is that nobody richly deserves to be consciously tormented in hell for eternity.

Many Christians agree with me on this: Nobody richly deserves to be conciously tormented in hell for eternity.

This completely misses my point, which was to offer examples of a thing's value not precluding negative consequences.

I agree. A thing's value does not preclude negative consequences.

I also do not think that anybody deserves to be conciously tormented in hell for eternity.

You truly deserve the eternal torment of Hell - especially when you could have chosen an eternity with God in heaven instead.

What have I done that makes me deserve eternal torment?

 

[doubtingmerle]

doubtingmerle-

With the Passion of Christ what we are really seeing is 'a happening within a happening'. And the person who 'killed' Jesus was none other than Jesus himself... [snip]

Jesus had raised others from the dead, but for his final miracle before his resurrection he deliberately sent himself into the region of the dead in order to conquer death itself.

Suicide???

 

[doubtingmerle]

BTW, there are some Christians in CF who profess to believe that hell is not eternal. They believe that ultimately all souls are saved. Some of the early Church Fathers believed that there could be salvation after death. Why are you not exploring these alternatives?

Good suggestion.

For now I am trying to understand a person who claims that people richly deserve to be conciously tormented in hell forever. Surprisingly, the man seems to be convinced that people are truly so vile that they deserve that.

I am surprised that you question the crucifixion of Jesus because it is one of the events that even secular scholars agree on.

Some secular scholars think Jesus was historical. Some don't.

How about the teachings of Jesus, do you believe in them? Perhaps that can be a starting point for you.

Some teachings in the gospels are good.

Do you believe that Jesus healed people?

I don't know if he existed. If he existed, I doubt if he did the miracles claimed of him.

 

[steve_bakr]

Good suggestion.

For now I am trying to understand a person who claims that people richly deserve to be conciously tormented in hell forever. Surprisingly, the man seems to be convinced that people are truly so vile that they deserve that.

Some secular scholars think Jesus was historical. Some don't.

Some teachings in the gospels are good.

I don't know if he existed. If he existed, I doubt if he did the miracles claimed of him.

I don't agree with the Total Depravity of man as Calvinism teaches because it neglects the fact that we are created in God's image, therefore it isn't possible for us to be devoid of all good.

My understanding is that Catholicism would describe man's condition as good but.fallen. He has fallen away.from the full potential of himself and.his relationship to God. Salvation through Christ restores man to his original.condition.

So I would tell you that Christ would not have.suffered on the cross.if he did.not think that you, merle, are worth the suffering that he endured.

But the crucifixion is not the end of the story. We Catholics believe that he descended into hell in order to save all souls there, and on the third day God raised him from the dead. By this act, eternal death was conquered. We believe that Christ ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, from thence He will come again someday.

A good prayer to escape hell is the following:

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins;
Save us from the fires of hell.
Lead ALL souls to heaven,
Especially those in most need of Thy mercy.
Amen.

That is called the Prayer of Fatima.

If you can find a Benedictene Monastery nearby, it would be great if you could.visit the monks there and just talk about the very things you talk about here. The next best thing is to make an appointment with a priest.

I don't believe that having doubt makes you unfit for God's kingdom. Doubt is a very human condition. Just read the Psalms and you will find in them all manner of human conditions in relation to God.



Peace

 

[aiki]

It is not up to me to offer you a possible way of escape under these circumstances. Your issue is with God, not me. And yet you insist there is a way of escape from hell but you yourself cannot seem to think of a way that a person who does not believe that the gospels are historical can escape hell. That is your problem. You insist you have a way of escape, but cannot seem to think of one.

I'm at a loss to account for your peculiar way of thinking. Inasmuch as the Gospels relate the way to escape hell, your rejection of them is necessarily a rejection of the way of escape they reveal. I know of no other way to be saved. I do, though, insist that there is a way (singular) to escape hell. It is a perfectly good way which you reject. So be it. Accept the consequences of what you choose to believe just like every one else.

Because Matthew, Luke and John probably copied from Mark. All probably recorded fiction.

I'm glad you used "probably" because your belief is a hotly contested theory among biblical scholars. In fact, I think "possibly" might have been a better, more accurate choice.

Because you say there is something an unbeliever can do to escape hell. If you claim that an escape exists, then why can't you tell us what that is?

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

I've never asserted that an unbeliever as an unbeliever can escape hell. The only way to escape hell is, as the passage above explains, to become a believer.

In what way have I rejected God's way of salvation? In what way have I refused to accept this gift?

Be it formally known that if eternal torture in hell exists, and if God gives away free passes to avoid hell, then I accept that gift.

Sorry, this isn't how it works. Salvation is found in relationship with a person: Jesus Christ. There is no "get out of hell" pass. There is only Christ.

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

What I said is that nobody richly deserves to be consciously tormented in hell for eternity.

That is not the only thing you said. Let me repeat your words here again:

"It is hard to see how you can tell me I richly deserve to be treated that way, and then tell me I am valuable."

So, yes, you were suggesting that a person's value ought to have some bearing on their punishment.

Many Christians agree with me on this: Nobody richly deserves to be conciously tormented in hell for eternity.

And a very great many do not.

You truly deserve the eternal torment of Hell - especially when you could have chosen an eternity with God in heaven instead.
What have I done that makes me deserve eternal torment?

1. You have sinned against the Almighty, Infinite, Holy God of the Universe.
2. Your sin produces death and corrupts the world God has made.
3. Your rejection of Christ as your Saviour and Lord is a terrible offense to God.
4. You have chosen to live your life separate from the authority of your Maker and in contradiction to His purposes in making you.

The first point all by itself is sufficient to warrant the punishment of hell, but the other ones bear mentioning, too.

Selah.

 

[steve_bakr]

BTW, merle,

As I understand the textual studies of the Gospels, it goes something like this:

The first accounts of Jesus were oral traditions handed down from memory. This is not unusual, as Jesus spoke Aramaic, originally an oral language whose speakers relied on their notoriously good memories.

Mark's was the first written Gospel. It is thought to be very authentic, as it contains very little embellishments. Another authentic Gospel is the apocryphal Thomas, which contains very early and authentic sayings.

Then came Luke and Matthew. It is thought that the authors used much of the material from Mark. But Luke and Matthew both also contain Sayings material that are similar to both and it is hypothesized that these Sayings come from the ancient oral tradition which scholars have named Q. Because of the similarities between the first three canonical Gospels they are called the Synoptics.

Finally, we have John's Gospel, which is so.dissimilar in content that it comes from an entirely different tradition handed down, presumably, by the disciple John.

Peace

 

[doubtingmerle]

So be it. Accept the consequences of what you choose to believe just like every one else.

Excuse me, but how can a person possibly choose to believe something they don't believe? Beliefs are not based on choice. They are based on facts.

Can you choose to believe something you don't currently believe? For instance, can you choose to believe that Santa Clause lives at the North Pole and comes to bring you presents every year?

Do you see now how one cannot simply choose to believe something he does not believe?

So what you ask is impossible, isn't it?

You imply I will scream in hell with no relief for eternity, and you can think of nothing I could possibly do that would prevent it.

Asking a person to believe something they don't believe--without giving them any evidence--is asking them to do something impossible.

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

In other words, you offer no escape to the person who has studied ancient history and comes to a different conclusion from you as to what happened in ancient Judeah.

How can you expect a person to choose to believe something he does not currently believe? Wouldn't that require evidence?

I've never asserted that an unbeliever as an unbeliever can escape hell.

And that is the problem.

You offer no hope, and no way that I could ever escape the eternal conscious torment in hell.

I could pretend to believe. But that is not good enough for you, is it?

The only way to escape hell is, as the passage above explains, to become a believer.

And what if the facts point away from belief? Then you offer no hope?

If you want me to believe it is true, why not show me some evidence?
Do you have evidence? Or will you just threaten eternal flames to anybody who disagrees with you?

Sorry, this isn't how it works. Salvation is found in relationship with a person: Jesus Christ. There is no "get out of hell" pass. There is only Christ.

And yet you cannot find one verse in the Bible that says, " Salvation is found in relationship with a person: Jesus Christ." Why can you not find one verse that says that?

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Which says nothing about a relationship.

That is not the only thing you said. Let me repeat your words here again:

"It is hard to see how you can tell me I richly deserve to be treated that way, and then tell me I am valuable."

So, yes, you were suggesting that a person's value ought to have some bearing on their punishment.

Do you really think that a person who is currently being tortured in unbearable pain, and will continue to scream without relief for eternity is valuable?

How can you say that you personally would do nothing--nothing--to stop the pain of the person who is currently screaming for mercy in hell, while still declaring that this person who is currently suffering there has value?

1. You have sinned against the Almighty, Infinite, Holy God of the Universe.

I am finite. I don't always do what I should do.

How can that make me worthy of suffering eternal torment without any hope of relief?

2. Your sin produces death and corrupts the world God has made.

I'm sorry for corrupting the world.

I'll lower my carbon footprint. I swear.

3. Your rejection of Christ as your Saviour and Lord is a terrible offense to God.

What I am saying is that I don't think the story in the four gospels is true.

4. You have chosen to live your life separate from the authority of your Maker and in contradiction to His purposes in making you.

I have no way of knowing what my maker wants. Do you have a way of knowing this?

 

[aiki]

Excuse me, but how can a person possibly choose to believe something they don't believe? Beliefs are not based on choice. They are based on facts.

How does being unwilling to change your beliefs exempt you from being responsible for having chosen those beliefs and not others? There are all sorts of facts floating around. And often the conclusion(s) one may derive from those facts is/are not readily apparent. There may be more than one conclusion one can reasonably come to from the facts. In such cases, one must choose what they will conclude.

You make it sound like the facts were such that you had no choice but to conclude from them what you have. But, when it comes to the Gospels, others have studied just as carefully (if not more so) as you and come to different conclusions from yours about the Gospel of Mark and its relationship to the other Synoptic Gospels. The facts do not lead to an undeniable, single conclusion. One must choose between several competing theories derived from the facts. You have done so and now seem to want to carry on as though the conclusion you came to was the only possible one, that this was so much the case that you couldn't possibly have come to any other. But, as those who have chosen to adopt different beliefs in this matter demonstrate, there is a genuine choice to be made.

Can you choose to believe something you don't currently believe? For instance, can you choose to believe that Santa Clause lives at the North Pole and comes to bring you presents every year?

Sure I can. I can believe anything - if I choose to. Usually, I come to this choice via an assessment of the facts in support of the particular belief. But just because I don't choose to believe something doesn't mean it is impossible for me to do so. Really, people change their minds all the time about what they believe. It's a very common occurence. Having one set of beliefs does not necessarily preclude adopting a different, even contradictory, set of new beliefs. This is illustrated every time someone comes to faith in Christ, which has happened millions of times.

Do you see now how one cannot simply choose to believe something he does not believe?

One may not simply choose to believe something he doesn't think is believable, but this doesn't mean his present beliefs are not chosen, or that those beliefs cannot change in the future.

So what you ask is impossible, isn't it?

Not at all. (See above.)

You imply I will scream in hell with no relief for eternity, and you can think of nothing I could possibly do that would prevent it.

Yes, I can - and I told you in my last post precisely how. Change your beliefs - just like millions of others have done.

Asking a person to believe something they don't believe--without giving them any evidence--is asking them to do something impossible.

I suppose, but no one's asking you to change your beliefs in a vacuum of reasons to do so. There is plenty of good evidence for the validity and reality of the Christian faith - enough to have persuaded scientists, doctors, philosophers, and millions of others from all walks of life to faith in Christ.

In other words, you offer no escape to the person who has studied ancient history and comes to a different conclusion from you as to what happened in ancient Judeah.

I see none in Scripture.

How can you expect a person to choose to believe something he does not currently believe? Wouldn't that require evidence?

Yup. And you have it. See:

Stand to Reason: Stand to Reason: Equipping Christian Ambassadors with Knowledge, Wisdom, and Character.
www.reasonablefaith. org
Welcome to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics
CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Reason Foundation

And that is the problem.

You offer no hope, and no way that I could ever escape the eternal conscious torment in hell.

I could pretend to believe. But that is not good enough for you, is it?

It isn't good enough for God. My standards are not at issue here, only those declared in Scripture.

And what if the facts point away from belief? Then you offer no hope?

If you want me to believe it is true, why not show me some evidence?
Do you have evidence? Or will you just threaten eternal flames to anybody who disagrees with you?

See above. And the threat of eternal flames is not mine, but God's.

And yet you cannot find one verse in the Bible that says, " Salvation is found in relationship with a person: Jesus Christ." Why can you not find one verse that says that?

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
​

Which says nothing about a relationship.

*Sigh* You can lead a horse to water...

1 John 1:2-3
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Do you really think that a person who is currently being tortured in unbearable pain, and will continue to scream without relief for eternity is valuable?

Yes.

How can you say that you personally would do nothing--nothing--to stop the pain of the person who is currently screaming for mercy in hell, while still declaring that this person who is currently suffering there has value?

I already answered this. You're inability to accept my answer doesn't somehow make it invalid.

I am finite. I don't always do what I should do.

How can that make me worthy of suffering eternal torment without any hope of relief?

Because "not doing what you should" contravenes the will of the Creator of the universe - and your Creator.

I'm sorry for corrupting the world.

I'll lower my carbon footprint. I swear.

And God will give you an ice cream and a pat on the head for doing so when you face Him at the Final Judgment. (Not!)

What I am saying is that I don't think the story in the four gospels is true.

So does every other unrepentant sinner going to hell. This doesn't change the consequences of your disbelief any more than not believing that playing on a busy freeway is dangerous exempts you from being hit by a vehicle when you play on it.

I have no way of knowing what my maker wants. Do you have a way of knowing this?

See The Word of God, the Bible.

Selah.

 

[doubtingmerle]

How does being unwilling to change your beliefs exempt you from being responsible for having chosen those beliefs and not others?

Huh? I said absolutely nothing about be unwilling to change my beliefs!!!

I am more than willing to examine the facts and change my mind where I am wrong. What could possibly make you think otherwise?

How about you? Are you willing to change your beliefs about religion if shown to be wrong? Are you willing to study the evidence that says the resurrection didn't happen? If it turns out you are wrong on the resurrection, would you change your mind?

You make it sound like the facts were such that you had no choice but to conclude from them what you have.

I find solid evidence that the earth is round, that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, and that the Bible is not perfect. I call them like I see them. Some things are clearly evident.

But, when it comes to the Gospels, others have studied just as carefully (if not more so) as you and come to different conclusions from yours about the Gospel of Mark and its relationship to the other Synoptic Gospels. The facts do not lead to an undeniable, single conclusion.

I believe they are mistaken. Would you like to know why I differ with them?

Sure I can. I can believe anything - if I choose to.

Anything!!!! Wow, what an amazing talent!






I cannot believe that all world leaders are actually purple elephants with 12 spotted wings made out of peanut butter. And you can?!?!

I cannot believe that the world series was played inside the belly of a dog every year. And you can?!?

I cannot believe 1 + 1 = 10,000. You can?!?!

That's an amazing talent you have there.

But just because I don't choose to believe something doesn't mean it is impossible for me to do so. Really, people change their minds all the time about what they believe. It's a very common occurence. Having one set of beliefs does not necessarily preclude adopting a different, even contradictory, set of new beliefs. This is illustrated every time someone comes to faith in Christ, which has happened millions of times.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

You just moved the goalposts! We all agree that people can change their minds, and that there are times we should change our minds. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

The issue is that I am quite certain that the resurrection did not happen. Since I don't think it happened, then I cannot at the same time believe it happened. It is logically impossible to think something did not happen and at the same time believe it did.

That is what you ask me to do, and that is impossible.

I suppose, but no one's asking you to change your beliefs in a vacuum of reasons to do so. There is plenty of good evidence for the validity and reality of the Christian faith - enough to have persuaded scientists, doctors, philosophers, and millions of others from all walks of life to faith in Christ.

And what about the millions who disagree with your book? For some reason you forgot to mention them.

Truth is not determined by counting votes. It is determined by evidence.

See:

Stand to Reason: Stand to Reason: Equipping Christian Ambassadors with Knowledge, Wisdom, and Character.
www.reasonablefaith. org
Welcome to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics
CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Reason Foundation

I am familiar with these sites.

But as I have explained, I have studied their arguments in detail and found them to be fallacious.

Just like I have seen sites that argue that the Koran has been proven miraculous, but I find those sites fallacious also.

It is not enough to find something on the Internet. Sometimes people on the Internet are wrong.

Because "not doing what you should" contravenes the will of the Creator of the universe - and your Creator.

But still the sin is finite. If a child is perfect all his life except he covets a cookie one time, does he deserve to be tortured forever in eternal hell because he spent 3 seconds coveting a cookie?

I think not.

See The Word of God, the Bible.

You go by the Bible to tell you what is right or wrong? The Bible says it is wrong to wear clothes made of mixed materials. If a person wears a shirt made of mixed materials, is that sufficient to condemn that person to eternal torment forever?

 

[aiki]

Huh? I said absolutely nothing about be unwilling to change my beliefs!!!

I am more than willing to examine the facts and change my mind where I am wrong. What could possibly make you think otherwise?

Pretty much everything you've written.

How about you? Are you willing to change your beliefs about religion if shown to be wrong? Are you willing to study the evidence that says the resurrection didn't happen? If it turns out you are wrong on the resurrection, would you change your mind?

Been there, done that.

I find solid evidence that the earth is round, that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, and that the Bible is not perfect. I call them like I see them. Some things are clearly evident.

Apples and oranges.

I believe they are mistaken. Would you like to know why I differ with them?

I am familiar with the various issues and theories pertaining to this matter. I am not particularly keen to hear your version of things, I'm afraid. I don't think you'd be able to add anything new to this thoroughly discussed issue.

Sure I can. I can believe anything - if I choose to.
Anything!!!! Wow, what an amazing talent!

I cannot believe that all world leaders are actually purple elephants with 12 spotted wings made out of peanut butter. And you can?!?!

I cannot believe that the world series was played inside the belly of a dog every year. And you can?!?

I cannot believe 1 + 1 = 10,000. You can?!?!

That's an amazing talent you have there.

You think so? You're easily impressed.

You just moved the goalposts! We all agree that people can change their minds, and that there are times we should change our minds. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

I disagree. I think it has everything to do with what you're saying.

The issue is that I am quite certain that the resurrection did not happen. Since I don't think it happened, then I cannot at the same time believe it happened. It is logically impossible to think something did not happen and at the same time believe it did.

That is what you ask me to do, and that is impossible.

How do people who were at one time as certain as you about their atheism become believers in God? How was it possible for them to abandon their firmly-held convictions? According to what you're saying above, such a thing should be impossible.

I suppose, but no one's asking you to change your beliefs in a vacuum of reasons to do so. There is plenty of good evidence for the validity and reality of the Christian faith - enough to have persuaded scientists, doctors, philosophers, and millions of others from all walks of life to faith in Christ.

And what about the millions who disagree with your book? For some reason you forgot to mention them.

Why would I mention them? My point wasn't about those who don't believe.

See:

Stand to Reason: Stand to Reason: Equipping Christian Ambassadors with Knowledge, Wisdom, and Character.
www.reasonablefaith. org
Welcome to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics
CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Reason Foundation
​

I am familiar with these sites.

But as I have explained, I have studied their arguments in detail and found them to be fallacious.

Just like I have seen sites that argue that the Koran has been proven miraculous, but I find those sites fallacious also.

It is not enough to find something on the Internet. Sometimes people on the Internet are wrong.

I posted the list of sites to counter your implication that there was no evidence for belief in God. That you choose to refuse the evidence doesn't somehow mean there is none.

But still the sin is finite. If a child is perfect all his life except he covets a cookie one time, does he deserve to be tortured forever in eternal hell because he spent 3 seconds coveting a cookie?

I think not.

Our sin is ultimately against an infinite God, therefore our sin is not truly finite.

God's moral law is like a chain. You break a single link in the chain and the entire chain is broken. (Ja. 2:10)

God punishes the sinner according to his knowledge of the truth. (Lk. 12:47, 48) The greater a person's knowledge of God's truth, the greater his responsibility before God for his rebellion against that truth. And the greater one's responsibility, the greater one's punishment.

See The Word of God, the Bible.

You go by the Bible to tell you what is right or wrong? The Bible says it is wrong to wear clothes made of mixed materials. If a person wears a shirt made of mixed materials, is that sufficient to condemn that person to eternal torment forever?

No. No one goes to hell for wearing a shirt of mixed fabrics. If you knew more about the purpose of the ceremonial, purity and moral laws God gave to Israel, you'd know not to ask the question you have above. I could explain but you seem quite deaf to any voice but your own.

Selah.

 

[doubtingmerle]

A

Are you willing to study the evidence that says the resurrection didn't happen? If it turns out you are wrong on the resurrection, would you change your mind?

Been there, done that.

I am glad you were open-minded about the resurrection in the past.

But I did not ask you if you have done this in the past. I have asked you if you would change your mind now if it turns out you are wrong about the resurrection. I notice that you have not answered that question.

I am familiar with the various issues and theories pertaining to this matter. I am not particularly keen to hear your version of things, I'm afraid. I don't think you'd be able to add anything of value to this thoroughly discussed issue.

Ah, I see, I could add nothing of value concerning the resurrection?

How do you know I have nothing of value to add? For I have been preoccupied with that subject for years, from both sides. One would think that, after all that study, I might have at least something of value to say.

I cannot believe 1 + 1 = 10,000. You can?!?!

That's an amazing talent you have there.

You think so? You're easily impressed.

I would not brag about the ability to think that 1 + 1 = 10,000.

If you could honestly believe that 1 + 1 = 10,000 regardless of the facts, then how do we know that anything you believe is based on facts? Are some of your current beliefs simply things that you chose to believe, even though the facts indicate otherwise?

How do people who were at one time as certain as you about their atheism become believers in God? How was it possible for them to abandon their firmly-held convictions? According to what you're saying above, such a thing should be impossible.

Can you give me the name of a former dedicated, informed atheist who now believes the resurrection? Converting an uninformed person is not the same thing.

I can name several informed, dedicated Christians who now deny the resurrection.

And what about the millions who disagree with your book? For some reason you forgot to mention them.

Why would I mention them? My point wasn't about those who don't believe.

Because you implied that millions of people that believe prove you are right. You ignored the millions who believe the opposite.

If a Ford salesman told you that Fords are proven to be best, for millions of smart people bought them, can you see this does not prove his point? (Hint: The GM salesman could make the same argument for his vehicles.)

But still the sin is finite. If a child is perfect all his life except he covets a cookie one time, does he deserve to be tortured forever in eternal hell because he spent 3 seconds coveting a cookie?

I think not.

Our sin is ultimately against an infinite God, therefore our sin is not truly finite.

God's moral law is like a chain. You break a single link in the chain and the entire chain is broken. (Ja. 2:10)

God punishes the sinner according to his knowledge of the truth. (Lk. 12:47, 48) The greater a person's knowledge of God's truth, the greater his responsibility before God for his rebellion against that truth. And the greater one's responsibility, the greater one's punishment.

It breaks my heart to read this. Can you please read it again, and think about what you have said?

I ask about a child--a child--who was perfect except that he once coveted a cookie. I ask if you think this child deserves to be tortured in hell forever. And you argue that this child deserves torture?

And so that child, who never even heard of Jesus, goes into hell screaming and begging for mercy? Do you hear the screams? "Daddy!" "Mommy!" "Help me!" He screams for all eternity. The flames surround his body. And what did he do to deserve this? He wanted a cookie so much that he coveted it.

What if he coveted his neighbors dog? Does it not matter that this child was a model child, perfect in every way except he once coveted his neighbors's dog? For that "sin" he screams without mercy for eternity? He is a child, for crying out loud. He wanted a doggie, for crying out loud. He coveted a doggie, for crying out loud. How can he possibly deserve to be tortured forever without mercy simply because he coveted a doggie? And you have told us that if a person is in torment in hell, that you would do nothing--nothing--to relieve the suffering, even if you could.

And so this child screams in eternal torment without mercy forever because he coveted a doggie?

Dear sir, with all due respect, if that is what your religion teaches, then I do not want your religion. If it is true I will acknowledge it, but I do so hope that this does not describe the state of reality.

 

[doubtingmerle]

And give the kid a doggie.