Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

I definitely wasn't pretending, and salvation according to Christian theology is a gift... and not something you are. "Being saved" is a Christian lingo... again. Something you say to id yourself as belonging like the "Are you jellin" ad.

It's irrelevant to this discussion though.

I don't think that talking about being saved is "Christian lingo" at all, nor does is make Christians part of some exclusive club. Jesus' forgiveness is available for anyone who would come to Him.

I'm not really concerned about what either you or she believes about religious reality. I'm more concerned about as to why you believe it's true? I think I've made it clear, so the preaching isn't necessary.

I answered your question as to why I think it's true. You chose to dismiss my answer and label me "intellectually dishonest." (Which is, by the way, a pretty common accusation). It seems that many non-Christians simply assume Christians can't or won't think for themselves.

A belief isn't a choice. Please believe that Earth is flat. Can you choose to do so?

I hear this a lot too, but I disagree. I chose Jesus.

Again, I'm not really interested as to what you believe, but why you believe it.

As I said, I gave my reasons.

What if you are wrong about God? Where would the instructions come from then?

It's interesting that you would ask this. I actually asked the same question awhile back and was accused of presenting "Pascal's wager."

In any case, the "instructions would still come from the word of God. God is the ultimate authority not us.

 

[devolved]

What would change then ?
Nothing.
The instructions would still keep on coming. They wouldn't change.

I think I'll leave this discussion with you at that, since it's not really getting anywhere in terms of any deeper insights.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think I'll leave this discussion with you at that, since it's not really getting anywhere in terms of any deeper insights.

The further you move away from God,
there won't be any "deeper" except the grave....
but then,
you already know this from God's Word.
He still hides "deeper" things from so-called scholars and the educated,
because it is "the Father's good pleasure to hide it from the educated"
and to reveal EVERYTHING about salvation to the "babes".

And that is exactly what the Father in heaven does , IN HIS GOOD PLEASURE !

 

[devolved]

The further you move away from God,
there won't be any "deeper" except the grave....
but then,
you already know this from God's Word.
He still hides "deeper" things from so-called scholars and the educated,
because it is "the Father's good pleasure to hide it from the educated"
and to reveal EVERYTHING about salvation to the "babes".

And that is exactly what the Father in heaven does , IN HIS GOOD PLEASURE !

Dude... come on. You should be talking to babes then and not me .

 

[devolved]

It's interesting that you would ask this. I actually asked the same question awhile back and was accused of presenting "Pascal's wager."

In any case, the "instructions would still come from the word of God. God is the ultimate authority not us.

Even if you are wrong and the God doesn't exist? That would be very strange...

 

[amariselle]

Even if you are wrong and the God doesn't exist? That would be very strange...

Which is why I said, that when it comes to Jesus, I don't believe I am wrong.

 

[devolved]

Which is why I said, that when it comes to Jesus, I don't believe I am wrong.

Me neither

 

[amariselle]

Me neither

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You know for sure that God doesn't exist? You just believe a god doesn't exist. I believe a god exists.

But I never claimed to "know for sure" that there is no God. More precisely, I don't believe there is one because the reasons given in support of that belief are not sufficient to justify its acceptance.

But, neither of us can prove our positions through using an objective method, so...who is right? Who is wrong?

You are assuming that I have a burden of proof in this situation, but I'm not the one making a claim in need of support. You are. My only burden is to explain why I don't accept your claim as true. I don't accept it as true because it hasn't been adequately supported.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm sure it doesn't do much, if any, good for some people. However, this IS a Christian forum, so why shouldn't such views be expected?

This IS a philosophy forum. If all you can say is "The Bible says this, and Christians consider it authoritative" then you are adding little to the discussion. The Bible has as much authority in this forum as any other holy book that people claim to be "the word of god." If that is your only response, then don't be surprised when people shrug and say "So what?" @devolved made the point very well. You've told us that Christians consider the Bible an authority, but you've given us no reason to consider it as such. Consequently, any argument you make that appeals to Biblical authority will inevitably fall flat.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

My beliefs don't hurt anyone. If someone is suggesting for you to hurt people, it probably would be wise to steer clear.

It's funny to me that people who are not believers of Christianity, seem to have a chip on their shoulder in this thread...like why do you care if and why I follow Christianity? If I were urging you to convert, then I could see the need to debate...but, that's not the case.

Your beliefs might not hurt anyone, but what about a Christians parent who forgoes medical treatment for their child's cancer and instead turns to faith healing? Or those in Congress zealously working to undermine LGBT rights, all in the name of their religious convictions? So why do we care? We care because we are humanists and because ideas matter.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I like your comments here, and can see where you are coming from a bit better. Unfortunately, there are people who are of faith, who misinterpret Scripture, and lead lives that are really not of God, but are of their own choosing, and tag God with the credit or discredit. I've read articles where parents avoid vaccinating their kids because 'God told them to not vaccinate.' I've seen many stories where people totally misinterpret God's word. But, this is part of the human condition, it's not really about Christianity, at all. Many people follow false gods.

But if "neither is right or wrong," as you said before, then on what grounds can you claim that the gods they follow are false?

Unfortunately, many people forget about Jesus, who are Christians...and they follow something else entirely. Something that leads them astray, yet they feel Jesus was the one leading them. If you are harming yourself or others, and claim the command came from God, I'd have to tell such a person that they're wrong. God is love.

How can you tell them that they are wrong if, as you said earlier, "neither is right or wrong." It simply does not follow.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But, Jesus didn't say to do that. I think these types of passages being pulled out of the Bible in order to dismantle the validity of Christianity is kind of a yawn. lol I used to use the same thing myself when I was an atheist, and at the end of the day, Christians follow Christ, or should anyway. Jesus' message was different than what came before it.

Is Jesus not the same as the Yahweh of the Old Testament? Did the Yahweh of the Bible command his followers to slaughter men, women, and children? Did he drown people in an apocalyptic global flood? Did he harden Pharaoh's heart? Did he kill the first born of Egypt? Did he send bears to maul children for daring to make fun of his prophet?

Another yawn. lol I know that others here will swing at your throws, but I'm not one of them. I don't believe in wasting my time on people who have made their minds up about Christianity, and dub it an evil faith. To each their own, but it's a waste of time to me. Even Jesus told His followers to shake the dust from their feet, when they'd go to villages, and people closed their doors and ears to them. This is me shaking the virtual dust from my feet lol If you are interested in a true dialogue, that's cool. But, it seems your mind is made up.

With respect, Deirdre32, but this isn't a fair evaluation of the situation. devolved clearly stated that he could be wrong, implying that he was open to be convinced. Yet here you say that he has "made his mind up" about Christianity? He also clearly stated that he was interested in learning more. Yet here you imply that he has closed the door on such learning. So who isn't interested in "true dialogue"?

 

[Freodin]

With respect, Deirdre32, but this isn't a fair evaluation of the situation. devolved clearly stated that he could be wrong, implying that he was open to be convinced. Yet here you say that he has "made his mind up" about Christianity? He also clearly stated that he was interested in learning more. Yet here you imply that he has closed the door on such learning. So who isn't interested in "true dialogue"?

I have found that many / most / all Christians equate "learning" with "accepting authority". "Lean not on your own understanding"... it isn't necessary that you understand, you only have to accept authority... "Trust in the Lord with all your heart".

That is the background behind this behaviour, and also the "shake the dust off your feets" attitude.

"Seekers" are to behave like the figures in the Gospels, Jesus' disciples. Ask a question, listen to Jesus tell a parable... shut up and accept it! Don't dare to doubt or scrutinise! Authority has spoken!

And if they don't accept, if the keep asking... why, it isn't the job of a teacher to make sure his students get it right, is it? You are authority... they have only themselves to blame for not understanding!


This reliance on authority as the sole source of "truth" is what makes it so difficult for Christians to communicate with skeptics.

 

[Ana the Ist]

He WAS here among us, and He did change history. The fact that many choose to reject Him, does not change that.

Yea, you can certainly make that claim...but I'd say that he didn't do anything that his story alone couldn't have done.

And really? A plaster cast of His head? You do know that there are many relics out there already right? They are of course highly questioned and disputed. (The Turin Shroud for instance). Why would some plaster cast of Jesus' head be any different?

How long did you think about this question before you asked it? Have you thought of the answer since then? Doesn't it seem obvious that having actual likenesses that are based upon his face are very different than people guessing about what he looked like? Do you really want me to go down your list of relics and explain the problems that they have? Certainly you at least understand the problems of, say, relics like the "robe of Jesus" since there's more than one and clearly they can't all be the real deal...but they can all be fakes.

I don't think that is where our faith should lie anyway. When we need relics or objects to venerate in order to have more faith and trust in Jesus, then our faith isn't completely in Jesus at all, but in material things.

Well...let's put it this way...

Suppose someone told you today that they're the second coming of Jesus....are you going to believe them on faith? Or will you wait until you've gotten some evidence of their claim?

Actually there are many many magicians, sorcerers and miracle workers in the world today. (Although, much, if not most, of the "miracles" and signs and wonders they perform are counterfeit.)

Maybe...but only because there are so many people and so many suckers for them to pray on. My point is that I won't come across any of these folk in my daily life...but the daily life of your average Roman probably included encounters with such folk all the time.

It's not simply a "nice story."

It is to me...and I'm being rather generous in my opinion.

Now...since you seem to be the only one having a lot of trouble with my earlier post and what I meant, I'll rewrite it for you....

"Why? Most people believe that he died and if he were still around...it would be hard to believe that he died."

As you can see...that's a longer and not so pleasant sounding way to reword that sentence, so I wrote it the other way originally. I'm not sure what else you think that I meant...I was talking about the belief that he died and only the belief that he died.

 

[Freodin]

Certainly you at least understand the problems of, say, relics like the "robe of Jesus" since there's more than one and clearly they can't all be the real deal...but they can all be fakes.

Well, to be fair, this would be a valid argument for relics like the "head of John the Baptist" or "Jesus' foreskin"... for which there are several claims, and they cannot all be real.

But even a guy like Jesus might have owned more than one robe.

 

[SteveB28]

I'm actually interested in both an honest dialogue AND in outreach.

What I "assume" Atheists shouldn't be here for is to attempt to de-convert Christians by mocking their faith and picking it apart.

No one can "deconvert" you. That is a process one does entirely by themself.

 

[amariselle]

Yea, you can certainly make that claim...but I'd say that he didn't do anything that his story alone couldn't have done.

What "story"? There wouldn't be a "story" if He didn't actually do what He did.

How long did you think about this question before you asked it? Have you thought of the answer since then? Doesn't it seem obvious that having actual likenesses that are based upon his face are very different than people guessing about what he looked like?

Why does it matter what He looked like? Should His physical appearance be what someone's faith is based on? (And some people DO believe they know what He looked like due to their belief that the Turin shroud is authentic. So what? What does that really change?

Do you really want me to go down your list of relics and explain the problems that they have? Certainly you at least understand the problems of, say, relics like the "robe of Jesus" since there's more than one and clearly they can't all be the real deal...but they can all be fakes.

Actually, they ALL have problems and relic veneration is in itself a problem. I didn't include that list because I think all of those relics are authentic and important to the Christian faith, quite the opposite actually.

Well...let's put it this way...

Suppose someone told you today that they're the second coming of Jesus....are you going to believe them on faith? Or will you wait until you've gotten some evidence of their claim?

Of course not. Jesus makes it clear that many will claim they are the Messiah, but not to believe them. When Jesus returns there will be no mistaking it, as everyone will see His return and know it is Him.

Maybe...but only because there are so many people and so many suckers for them to pray on. My point is that I won't come across any of these folk in my daily life...but the daily life of your average Roman probably included encounters with such folk all the time.

I wouldn't be calling people "suckers", but if you wish to be derogatory and condescending, that's you choice of course.

What I think is that people are people, we always want some kind of "evidence", and for some the evidence they seek is signs, wonders and miracles. Faith in these things is misplaced faith, just as faith in material evidence is misplaced faith.

It is to me...and I'm being rather generous in my opinion.

In your opinion, yes.

Now...since you seem to be the only one having a lot of trouble with my earlier post and what I meant, I'll rewrite it for you....

"Why? Most people believe that he died and if he were still around...it would be hard to believe that he died."

As you can see...that's a longer and not so pleasant sounding way to reword that sentence, so I wrote it the other way originally. I'm not sure what else you think that I meant...I was talking about the belief that he died and only the belief that he died.

Since this is a forum where what we write and how we write it is important for getting our point across, perhaps it's best to be clear about what we're saying, rather than choosing vague wording.

 

[amariselle]

No one can "deconvert" you. That is a process one does entirely by themself.

And yet someone can certainly have the intent to damage someone's faith, with the hope that that is exactly where such damage will lead.

Some people seem to think that doing such things is doing Christians a favour, as they seem to believe Christians are unintelligent and don't think for themselves.

 

[amariselle]

This IS a philosophy forum. If all you can say is "The Bible says this, and Christians consider it authoritative" then you are adding little to the discussion. The Bible has as much authority in this forum as any other holy book that people claim to be "the word of god." If that is your only response, then don't be surprised when people shrug and say "So what?" @devolved made the point very well. You've told us that Christians consider the Bible an authority, but you've given us no reason to consider it as such. Consequently, any argument you make that appeals to Biblical authority will inevitably fall flat.

It may "fall flat" for you, but it certainly doesn't for everyone. I'm not the only one who considers the Bible to be authoritative, obviously. As this is a Christian forum, there are others here who do as well.

Perhaps if I was on a secular forum I would agree that quoting the Bible is irrelevant, but this isn't a secular forum.

Oh, and once again, I am not "surprised." Do you think I don't know that not everyone accepts the Bible? Of course I know that.