Why did Jesus Leave?

[devolved]

You think I haven't asked myself that?

So. Is it?

 

[amariselle]

So. Is it?

Obviously I don't believe I'm wrong to have placed my faith in Jesus.

Does that mean I have all the answers in life? Of course not. I do believe I have the answer to life's most important questions though.

And I continue to learn and grow throughout my life. There is always something more to learn, and I'm thankful for that.

 

[devolved]

Obviously I don't believe I'm wrong to have placed my faith in Jesus.

I didn't ask you whether you believe that you are wrong, or whether you think that you have all of the answers.

I'm asking you whether it is possible that you are wrong about Christianity in general. Is it possible that it is a merely human construct just like many other religions are?

Again, is it possible that you are wrong about that?

 

[amariselle]

I didn't ask you whether you believe that you are wrong, or whether you think that you have all of the answers.

I'm asking you whether it is possible that you are wrong about Christianity in general. Is it possible that it is a merely human construct just like many other religions are?

Again, is it possible that you are wrong about that?

Well, if I am, (and if all other Christians are as well) I can't say what that would mean better than Paul:

"And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world." (1 Corinthians 15:19)

 

[Deidre32]

I don't advocate for you to change your beliefs. I'm merely seeing if they are viable and if you can answer certain questions, answers or non-answers to which may contribute to my overall understanding of the subject matter.

I'm not here to argue for any given view as much as I'm here to learn where my own arguments fail.



I think perception is not everything in this case. It's difficult to understand the motive of various people, and people who exist faith get through various stages of grief, just like when people who lose someone.

1) Denial
They tend to cling on and adamantly deny they they don't believe

2) Anger
They tend to lash out and find some fault with believers and church

3) Acceptance
They eventually accept the reality, and come to the acceptance of their non-belief and they essentially learn to live without it or ignore things that they have believed for wrong reasons or for no apparent justification.

Obviously, you have your own reasons to believe, and I'm not here to take it away from you... especially if you think it benefits you in some way, or if such belief benefits others through you. It's not always the case though. False beliefs in general are detrimental. For example, we've had our friend died from cancer because she opted out to wait and see if God and prayer will heal her first as a lady in the church adviced her to do, because that lady self-diagnosed herself with breast cancer and claimed that God healed her through prayer and fasting.

So, our friend eventually hit stage 3 and it was a point of no return.

I'm not saying that you belief these things, but many of these false beliefs are derivative to certain approach to reality that's detrimental.

I like your comments here, and can see where you are coming from a bit better. Unfortunately, there are people who are of faith, who misinterpret Scripture, and lead lives that are really not of God, but are of their own choosing, and tag God with the credit or discredit. I've read articles where parents avoid vaccinating their kids because 'God told them to not vaccinate.' I've seen many stories where people totally misinterpret God's word. But, this is part of the human condition, it's not really about Christianity, at all. Many people follow false gods. I feel that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Not because the Bible states it, but because I had an experience of faith last year, that led me back to Christianity. This is my belief, and while it might sound incredible from a non-believer standpoint, I was a non-believer when it happened. To me, it was incredible, and yet, I believe it.

Unfortunately, many people forget about Jesus, who are Christians...and they follow something else entirely. Something that leads them astray, yet they feel Jesus was the one leading them. If you are harming yourself or others, and claim the command came from God, I'd have to tell such a person that they're wrong. God is love.

 

[devolved]

Well, if I am, (and if all other Christians are as well) I can't say what that would mean better than Paul:

"And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world." (1 Corinthians 15:19)

Again, I'm not asking you what that would mean... I'm asking you whether you think it's possible that you can be wrong. It's a simple yes or no question . I'm not sure why you find it hard to answer. Is it possible that you are wrong?

 

[amariselle]

Again, I'm not asking you what that would mean... I'm asking you whether you think it's possible that you can be wrong. It's a simple yes or no question . I'm not sure why you find it hard to answer. Is it possible that you are wrong?

About Jesus, no. About many lesser things, who knows? I'm sure I'm not right about everything in life, I am only human after all.

 

[devolved]

About Jesus, no. About many lesser things, who knows? I'm sure I'm not right about everything in life, I am only human after all.

So, if you are human with obvious limitations, why do you think that you can't be wrong about Jesus?

 

[amariselle]

So, if you are human with obvious limitations, why do you think that you can't be wrong about Jesus?

First and foremost, because of God's word, and also because I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Saviour. This is very difficult to explain when someone hasn't experienced it.

However, I rely on God, not myself in this.

 

[devolved]

First and foremost, because of God's word, and also because I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Saviour. This is very difficult to explain when someone hasn't experienced it.

However, I rely on God, not myself in this.

1) You are using the copied jargon lingo about "personal relationship" that has been popularized and only available to Christianity in recent century and a half, and it's difficult to explain because it doesn't actually mean anything in reality .

Your perceived relationship with God, even if God is real, isn't what we generally mean by "personal relationship". I have personal relationship with my son, with my wife, and with my friends. Taking to someone through prayer, and then reading the Bible IS NOT a form of personal relationship. That's not how personal relationship works.

I've been a Christian for most of my life, so I've used the same lingo without even thinking what it really means. I suspect you are doing the same, hence why it's hard for you to explain.

2) Either you omniscient or you have limitations. Your belief about God is predicated on it being right first. If it's wrong, then it's irrelevant whether the Bible says that it's right .

Hence I really don't find it intellectually honest to keep appealing to a belief to say that you can't absolutely be wrong about it, and then contradict and say that you are a limited human being that has to rely on concepts you derive from your belief to validate it .

I'm not afraid to admit that I can be wrong about my non-belief. I'm being intellectually honest and consistent about my limitations. I don't think that you are being intellectually honest.

I suspect that you know that you can be wrong, but you afraid to admit it because you think it would mean some form of lack of faith or doubt.

 

[amariselle]

1) You are using the copied jargon lingo about "personal relationship" that has been popularized and only available to Christianity in recent century and a half, and it's difficult to explain because it doesn't actually mean anything in reality .

Your perceived relationship with God, even if God is real, isn't what we generally mean by "personal relationship". I have personal relationship with my son, with my wife, and with my friends. Taking to someone through prayer, and then reading the Bible IS NOT a form of personal relationship. That's not how personal relationship works.

I've been a Christian for most of my life, so I've used the same lingo without even thinking what it really means. I suspect you are doing the same, hence why it's hard for you to explain.

2) Either you omniscient or you have limitations. Your belief about God is predicated on it being right first. If it's wrong, then it's irrelevant whether the Bible says that it's right .

Hence I really don't find it intellectually honest to keep appealing to a belief to say that you can't absolutely be wrong about it, and then contradict and say that you are a limited human being that has to rely on concepts you derive from your belief to validate it .

I'm not afraid to admit that I can be wrong about my non-belief. I'm being intellectually honest and consistent about my limitations. I don't think that you are being intellectually honest.

I suspect that you know that you can be wrong, but you afraid to admit it because you think it would mean some form of lack of faith or doubt.

By all means, go on assuming that you know me and whether or not I am being "intellectually honest."

I guess if that's what you think about me and my faith, there is nothing more to say.

 

[devolved]

By all means, go on assuming that you know me and whether or not I am being "intellectually honest."

I guess if that's what you think about me and my faith, there is nothing more to say.

What else is there to say to a person who thinks that they can't be wrong?

 

[devolved]

I like your comments here, and can see where you are coming from a bit better. Unfortunately, there are people who are of faith, who misinterpret Scripture, and lead lives that are really not of God, but are of their own choosing, and tag God with the credit or discredit. I've read articles where parents avoid vaccinating their kids because 'God told them to not vaccinate.' I've seen many stories where people totally misinterpret God's word.

So, when God in the Bible commands to stone homosexuals, or saying it's ok if one beats a slave to half-death because a slave is a property of the master....

Which way should one interpret that? Is that a part of human condition? You realize that Bible is more than gospel accounts?

But, this is part of the human condition, it's not really about Christianity, at all. Many people follow false gods. I feel that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Not because the Bible states it, but because I had an experience of faith last year, that led me back to Christianity. This is my belief, and while it might sound incredible from a non-believer standpoint, I was a non-believer when it happened. To me, it was incredible, and yet, I believe it.

I generally understand why people turn to belief, because I was there, and I think it's a worldview issue. All it really take is to consider a possibility that you indeed can be wrong. If you can be wrong about that, then there is an alternative explanations to consider that leads through the same exact experiences.

I don't think one has to be a Christian to encounter similar experiences and have similar ideas. I know that I've had these both as a Christian and as non-believer.

Unfortunately, many people forget about Jesus, who are Christians...and they follow something else entirely. Something that leads them astray, yet they feel Jesus was the one leading them. If you are harming yourself or others, and claim the command came from God, I'd have to tell such a person that they're wrong. God is love.

Again, God is love is a very strange thing to say in context of the OT. Have you read the Bible? I'm not sure how you can lovingly command to kill pregnant women. Perhaps you can help me understand?

 

[Deidre32]

So, when God in the Bible commands to stone homosexuals, or saying it's ok if one beats a slave to half-death because a slave is a property of the master....

Which way should one interpret that? Is that a part of human condition? You realize that Bible is more than gospel accounts?

But, Jesus didn't say to do that. I think these types of passages being pulled out of the Bible in order to dismantle the validity of Christianity is kind of a yawn. lol I used to use the same thing myself when I was an atheist, and at the end of the day, Christians follow Christ, or should anyway. Jesus' message was different than what came before it.

I generally understand why people turn to belief, because I was there, and I think it's a worldview issue. All it really take is to consider a possibility that you indeed can be wrong. If you can be wrong about that, then there is an alternative explanations to consider that leads through the same exact experiences.

Okay, understood. May I ask...what are you ''seeking?'' That is your status title, yes?

I don't think one has to be a Christian to encounter similar experiences and have similar ideas. I know that I've had these both as a Christian and as non-believer.

Well, you don't know my experience, so...lol It's interesting to discuss different thoughts about this stuff with others.

Again, God is love is a very strange thing to say in context of the OT. Have you read the Bible? I'm not sure how you can lovingly command to kill pregnant women. Perhaps you can help me understand?

Another yawn. lol I know that others here will swing at your throws, but I'm not one of them. I don't believe in wasting my time on people who have made their minds up about Christianity, and dub it an evil faith. To each their own, but it's a waste of time to me. Even Jesus told His followers to shake the dust from their feet, when they'd go to villages, and people closed their doors and ears to them. This is me shaking the virtual dust from my feet lol If you are interested in a true dialogue, that's cool. But, it seems your mind is made up.

 

[amariselle]

What else is there to say to a person who thinks that they can't be wrong?

I'm sure you can say all kinds of things.

And I didn't say I can't be wrong. Do I think I'm infallible? Of course not, that would be absurd.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I've been a Christian for most of my life, so I've used the same lingo without even thinking what it really means.

Thus, were you just "pretending" to be a Christian ? You never repented and were saved?

I suspect you are doing the same, hence why it's hard for you to explain.
2) Either you omniscient or you have limitations. Your belief about God is predicated on it being right first. If it's wrong, then it's irrelevant whether the Bible says that it's right

Suspect all you like. Her belief, like we other Christians, is predicated on God's Mercy , Forgiveness and His Faithfulness. (not on being "right")
Amariselle is forgiven, saved, and at peace with God, resting in the salvation of Jesus Faithfulness, not her own faithfulness.(from her testimony)
We're (Christians who are forgiven, not because we're "right") not hiding sin in our lives, or living in willful rejection of Jesus, or being disobedient to God's Word, so we have Peace, Joy, and Salvation in Jesus .

Hence I really don't find it intellectually honest to keep appealing to a belief to say that you can't absolutely be wrong about it, and then contradict and say that you are a limited human being that has to rely on concepts you derive from your belief to validate it .
I'm not afraid to admit that I can be wrong about my non-belief. I'm being intellectually honest and consistent about my limitations.

Your limititations are your own - refusing to repent to be saved is your choice, a matter of your own will and rebellion. (is that what you call "honesty"?!)
Who is contradicting God's Word ? Who but you - who says they know God's Word, but refuse to believe it and refuse to repent to be saved. That's A CHOICE.
There's nothing we (Christians who are FORGIVEN of our sin) CAN DO to validate it.
And we don't have to. So we don't need "concepts" derived from anything.
That's all up to God.

I suspect that you know that you can be wrong, but you afraid to admit it because you think it would mean some form of lack of faith or doubt.

Oh, most all of us, or all of us, have been wrong a lot.
Thankfully, God in His Word gives instructions on what to do when we are wrong.
In other words,
by God's Word, trusting IN HIM, we have nothing to fear.
It is NO LACK OF FAITH NOR is it DOUBT to be wrong or to make mistakes.
Otherwise, probably no one could survive.

 

[devolved]

But, Jesus didn't say to do that. I think these types of passages being pulled out of the Bible in order to dismantle the validity of Christianity is kind of a yawn. lol I used to use the same thing myself when I was an atheist, and at the end of the day, Christians follow Christ, or should anyway. Jesus' message was different than what came before it.

Who said it then? You said that God is love, right? And that's what I've responded to.

Okay, understood. May I ask...what are you ''seeking?'' That is your status title, yes?

Sure. I'm seeking understanding. I'm seeking validation for either view. I'm seeing for someone to either validate my views, or show where I may be mistaken.

I don't assume that my views on God are unchangeable and right. I merely interested to see if there are better arguments than what I typically hear.

Likewise, I'm interested to see whether people really do believe enough to understand and explain it in understandable English, or they merely resort to catchphrases and repetition of prepackaged answers.

I think that above all, I do seek an intelligent conversation concerning this subject.

Well, you don't know my experience, so...lol It's interesting to discuss different thoughts about this stuff with others.

I was merely referring to belief in general and how people transition. For example, I was a non-believer, and I've had a lot of things happen in my life that I've interpreted as "God's calling me".

My point is not about assuming that I know your experience, but about alternative explanation of any given experience, and not resorting to a single interpretation, especially when it comes to unfalsifiable assumptions and causal explanations.

For example, I knew a woman who went through a terrible divorce and her husband leaving her, and she was left with virtually nothing, so she cried and asked God for help. She bought a lottery ticket and she won $30,000 which turned her into a deeply religious person. But, if we seek alternative interpretations... then there are further questions to ask like, is it possible that the prayer is a coincidental factor. Do desperate people win lottery? You know, questions like these.

The point being, I don't think that it's intellectually justifiable rushing to religious faith based on coinciding events. It happened to me, and in retrospect there are more viable explanations than immediate religious assumptions about any given experience.

 

[devolved]

Thus, were you just "pretending" to be a Christian ? You never repented and were saved?

I definitely wasn't pretending, and salvation according to Christian theology is a gift... and not something you are. "Being saved" is a Christian lingo... again. Something you say to id yourself as belonging like the "Are you jellin" ad.

It's irrelevant to this discussion though.

Suspect all you like. Her belief, like we other Christians, is predicated on God's Mercy , Forgiveness and His Faithfulness. (not on being "right")
Amariselle is forgiven, saved, and at peace with God, resting in the salvation of Jesus Faithfulness, not her own faithfulness.(from her testimony)
We're (Christians who are forgiven, not because we're "right") not hiding sin in our lives, or living in willful rejection of Jesus, or being disobedient to God's Word, so we have Peace, Joy, and Salvation in Jesus .

I'm not really concerned about what either you or she believes about religious reality. I'm more concerned about as to why you believe it's true? I think I've made it clear, so the preaching isn't necessary.

Your limititations are your own - refusing to repent to be saved is your choice, a matter of your own will and rebellion. (is that what you call "honesty"?!)
Who is contradicting God's Word ? Who but you - who says they know God's Word, but refuse to believe it and refuse to repent to be saved. That's A CHOICE.
There's nothing we (Christians who are FORGIVEN of our sin) CAN DO to validate it.
And we don't have to. So we don't need "concepts" derived from anything.
That's all up to God.

A belief isn't a choice. Please believe that Earth is flat. Can you choose to do so?

Again, I'm not really interested as to what you believe, but why you believe it.

Oh, most all of us, or all of us, have been wrong a lot.
Thankfully, God in His Word gives instructions on what to do when we are wrong.
In other words,
by God's Word, trusting IN HIM, we have nothing to fear.
It is NO LACK OF FAITH NOR is it DOUBT to be wrong or to make mistakes.
Otherwise, probably no one could survive.

What if you are wrong about God? Where would the instructions come from then?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A belief isn't a choice. Please believe that Earth is flat. Can you choose to do so?

hahaha,
hahahahaha,
haha ----- I guess you didn't see the flat earth thread....... hahahaha

Totally! I can "CHOOSE" to believe the Earth is flat.

Belief is totally a choice -
as God says -
CHOOSE today if you will keep serving satan,
or start serving ME .
"CHOOSE TODAY".

Completely and inviolably A CHOICE.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What if you are wrong about God? Where would the instructions come from then?

What would change then ?
Nothing.
The instructions would still keep on coming. They wouldn't change.

After we die, if we find out God was wrong, and we end up not where He says,

THEN we will be concerned - and perhaps

you remember "IF CHRIST didn't DIE for our SIN...." then we are the MOST FOOLISH of all men.

But as God is Faithful and True, as He says,
it is those who reject Jesus who are most foolish
if they don't repent before they die,
and they don't get another chance later.