Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

[RileyG]

He died as a ransom for many.

 

[nightmares]

You believe that God forced them to sin, that they, as a result, could not have chosen to do otherwise?


We live in a physical universe. God formed Adam's body here, from the Earth itself, and then He breathed the breath of life into his newly formed physical body and he became a living being .. e.g. Genesis 2:7.


As I said above, if there was a better way, He would (obviously) have chosen it, but there was no better way. True, free will, is a messy business, but He apparently wanted beings who weren't programmed (forced) to "love" Him, but freely wanted to instead.

To think otherwise would mean that He is not our loving, heavenly Father, but a monster. The thing is, a monster would never choose to love us in all of the ways that He has and continues to do. He has demonstrated who He really is to us, that He is our loving, heavenly Abba who always wants the very best for us. So, life is what it is. No pain and suffering would, of course, be nice, but it is obviously not possible for us on this side of the grave. The GREAT news is that it awaits us in very short order on the other side, and forevermore

--David

1 Adam/Eve did not eat from the tree until the serpent came along

2 Given all the talk about how the flesh profits nothing and how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, it is obvious that Adam and Eve originally were spirit beings and eating from the tree caused them to come to Earth as flesh and blood humans

 

[nightmares]

He died as a ransom for many.

Yeah I never understood that theory

So you create a being who becomes evil and "kidnaps" other beings you created and the only way to "rescue" them is for you to die?

Why would a Creator have to die because of a lesser, evil, being. Just kill him and be done with it

After all, God has no problem killing humans in the Old Testament so why does Satan remain alive

 

[St_Worm2]

1 Adam/Eve did not eat from the tree until the serpent came along

That's true. He (Satan) has earned his various titles and names (like tempter and deceiver) for a very good reason, because that's what he does and is. The thing is, while our first parents were tempted by him, he could not force them to sin. The choice was theirs to make and they chose poorly (obviously).

2 Given all the talk about how the flesh profits nothing and how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, it is obvious that Adam and Eve originally were spirit beings and eating from the tree caused them to come to Earth as flesh and blood humans.

The partial verses above that you've quoted, from John 6 and 1 Corinthians 15, have nothing to do with creation of Adam or Eve. The creation of Adam and Eve is detailed pretty specifically for us by God in Genesis 2:7 (Adam) and in Genesis 2:21-22 (Eve), so let's stick with that for now

The Bible tells us that our first parents were created by God right here on earth. There is no mention of them having some sort of preexistence as "spirit beings" prior to that.

Why do you think that they used to exist as "spirit beings", and how would a "spirit being" eat food from a tree? Do "spirit beings" have teeth and stomachs and intestines, etc.? Also, we eat to maintain our physical bodies, flesh and bone, why would a ghost need to eat something?

Maybe you should take Tony (@tonychanyt) up on his suggestion to read the Bible. I'd start at the beginning, with Genesis 1-4 if I was you

--David

 

[nightmares]

1 No they made their choice by not eating from it when left to their own devices and that choice should have been respected

2. Why would anyone think Adam and Eve were originally flesh and blood humans limited to Earth

Especially when the Bible says, among other clues, that man was made in God's image. And God is certainly not flesh and blood stuck on Earth

 

[St_Worm2]

1 No they made their choice by not eating from it when left to their own devices and that choice should have been respected

Hello again Nightmares, unlike their progeny (IOW, everyone else who has ever lived), our progenitors were given a single command by God, just one .. Genesis 2:16-17, that they needed to obey. When Satan made them a tempting offer to do the one and only thing that God told them not to do ~that's~ when they made their choice, and the choice that they made was to disobey Him.

Your scenario would be an interesting one to watch play out in a courtroom. Imagine, if you will, a first-time murderer standing before a judge making the argument that you just did to free himself from the penalty that he was facing, saying, "but judge, I've never committed murder before, so my earlier choices (not to do so) must still be respected".

Do you think that judge (or any judge) would be swayed by that argument and release him

2. Why would anyone think Adam and Eve were originally flesh and blood humans limited to Earth

What reason would anyone have to think otherwise? The fact that his body was formed from the dust of the ground here on earth, and that he became a "living being" afterwards tells us that he was not a living being, "spirit being" or otherwise, prior to his creation.

Genesis 2​

7 The LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.​

Especially when the Bible says, among other clues, that man was made in God's image. And God is certainly not flesh and blood stuck on Earth

You are correct about God not being flesh and blood, so what does it mean that man was made in His image right here on Earth? Perhaps the following will help.

Having the “image” or “likeness” of God means, in the simplest terms, that we were made to resemble God. Adam did not resemble God in the sense of God’s having flesh and blood. Scripture says that “God is spirit” (John 4:24) and therefore exists without a body. However, Adam’s body did mirror the life of God insofar as it was created in perfect health and was not subject to death.​

​

The image of God (Latin, imago dei) refers to the immaterial part of humanity. It sets human beings apart from the animal world, fits them for the dominion God intended them to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables them to commune with their Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially.​

​

Mentally, humanity was created as a rational, volitional agent. In other words, human beings can reason and choose. This is a reflection of God’s intellect and freedom. Anytime someone invents a machine, writes a book, paints a landscape, enjoys a symphony, calculates a sum, or names a pet, he or she is proclaiming the fact that we are made in God’s image.​

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Morally, humanity was created in righteousness and perfect innocence, a reflection of God’s holiness. God saw all He had made (humanity included) and called it “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Our conscience or “moral compass” is a vestige of that original state. Whenever someone writes a law, recoils from evil, praises good behavior, or feels guilty, he or she is confirming the fact that we are made in God’s own image.​

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Socially, humanity was created for fellowship. This reflects God’s triune nature and His love. In Eden, humanity’s primary relationship was with God (Genesis 3:8 implies fellowship with God), and God made the first woman because “it is not good for the man to be alone” (Genesis 2:18). Every time someone marries, makes a friend, hugs a child, or attends church, he or she is demonstrating the fact that we are made in the likeness of God.​

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Part of being made in God’s image is that Adam had the capacity to make free choices. Although they were given a righteous nature, Adam and Eve made an evil choice to rebel against their Creator. In so doing, they marred the image of God within themselves, and passed that damaged likeness on to all their descendants (Romans 5:12). Today, we still bear the image of God (James 3:9), but we also bear the scars of sin. Mentally, morally, socially, and physically, we show the effects of sin.​

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The good news is that when God redeems an individual, He begins to restore the original image of God, creating a “new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). That redemption is only available by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior from the sin that separates us from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through Christ, we are made new creations in the likeness of God (2 Corinthians 5:17). ~What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)? | GotQuestions.org​

The folks at GotQuestions.org have made basic answers about the Bible, the church, the Christian faith, etc. available for all to read for free (or to listen to/watch as some of their articles come with videos). IMHO, they are one of the best places to get a quick answer and/or to begin a more detailed study, just FYI.

--David

 

[nightmares]

1. An impartial judge would recognise that Adam and Eve were victims of entrapment and set them free

2. Adam and Eve originally had the same body manifested by Jesus at the Transfiguration. Hence the talk about the fruits of the spirit Vs the fruits of the flesh. Flesh and blood is a result of eating from the tree of knowledge.

Also I don't agree with the traditional interpretation that "you shall surely die" meant that God would kill Adam/Eve for disobedience.

I believe it is a warning because God knew it was deadly (because it was Satan's tree)

 

[tonychanyt]

1. An impartial judge would recognise that Adam and Eve were victims of entrapment and set them free

So this impartial judge is wiser than God?

 

[nightmares]

So this impartial judge is wiser than God?

I didn't say anything about God

If you don't eat from a tree until someone comes along and tries to get you to eat it, is that not entrapment

 

[nightmares]

I didn't say anything about God

If you don't eat from a tree until someone comes along and tries to get you to eat it, is that not entrapment

Two questions

1 Would Adam and Eve have ever eaten from the tree if the serpent hadn't come along

2 Given that Adam/Eve had not eaten from the tree, and thus were obeying God's instructions, what was the point of having the serpent come along

 

[tonychanyt]

I didn't say anything about God

Did God hand out the wrong sentence concerning Adam and Eve?

 

[nightmares]

Did God hand out the wrong sentence concerning Adam and Eve?

I do not know I wasn't there

I am not here to criticise God I am defending Adam and Eve by pointing out that they did not eat from the tree until enticed to do so

 

[tonychanyt]

I do not know I wasn't there

But you know that an impartial judge would recognise that Adam and Eve were victims of entrapment and set them free?

Were you there?

 

[nightmares]

But you know that an impartial judge would recognise that Adam and Eve were victims of entrapment and set them free?

Were you there?

But you know that an impartial judge would recognise that Adam and Eve were victims of entrapment and set them free?

Were you there?

1. Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree when left to their own devices

2. They ate only when enticed to do so

3. Therefore it is entrapment

4. So is it correct to blame them?

 

[Andrewn]

Let me put it this way then. It was the price of entry into Hades. He couldn't destroy the power of death by His resurrection if He didn't die first.

Why are those who refused to obey in the days of Noah mentioned here?

1Pe 3:17 For Christ also suffered for our sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but raised to life in the spirit. 19 In the spirit also he went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 those who had refused to obey long ago while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark. In it only a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

 

[tonychanyt]

1. Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree when left to their own devices

2. They ate only when enticed to do so

3. Therefore it is entrapment

4. So is it correct to blame them?

I don't know.

Did God hand out the wrong sentence concerning Adam and Eve?

 

[nightmares]

He should have sentenced them to 10,000 years dancing on the Sun

 

[tonychanyt]

He should have sentenced them to 10,000 years dancing on the Sun

If you were God, would you have done the above?

 

[Andrewn]

1. Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree when left to their own devices

2. They ate only when enticed to do so

3. Therefore it is entrapment

4. So is it correct to blame them?

Adam and Eve are all of us. Each one of us ate of the Tree when enticed by the flesh and deserved to die. God knows our weakness and does not blame us for it. He rather came to earth, acquired flesh similar to ours, and defeated the devil. He gave us the means of salvation: the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[nightmares]

If you were God, would you have done the above?

I would have got rid of the serpent.