Why did God create useless body parts?

Thera

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FGM should be an affront to every person regardless of their gender. So yes it totally "affects men", but if you want we can talk about MGM if this feels better label for males having part of their genitals chopped off.

I mean stuff like

Cases of herpes in baby boys linked to ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual going up

What kind of sick person comes up with this stuff ?
I don't agree with that practice - I agree that is warped and perverted. Whilst I believe there are medical and religious benefits to circumcision, it should be a quick snip, and not involve paedophillic-type oral-suction rituals, as in the case you referenced.

Even if foreskin has no purpose, from a biblical perspective, circumcision gives (or gave) it a purpose as a covenant sign. So no useless body parts.
 
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coffee4u

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FMG does not affect men.

Actually it does. For one it shapes how men in that culture view women and two it affects the mechanics of intimate relations.

The foreskin has multiple purposes, first up protection, two sex as God designed it and three the foreskin makes antibodies. I don't believe in useless body parts, only people who have not yet studied and researched enough to discover what the use it.
 
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Thera

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Actually it does. For one it shapes how men in that culture view women and two it affects the mechanics of intimate relations.
Agree on the latter point, but the man is not mutilated, so is not as violently affected as the woman. As regards to the former point, I find it hard to believe that any man who is not a sadist can agree with FGM.

The foreskin has multiple purposes, first up protection, two sex as God designed it and three the foreskin makes antibodies. I don't believe in useless body parts, only people who have not yet studied and researched enough to discover what the use it.
So whichever way one believes, if even a part that has been removed routinely for thousands of years has a purpose, how much moreso body parts that aren't routinely removed?

Out of interest, how do you view scripture such as Deuteronomy 10:16, which states to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Of what (metaphorical) use is a foreskin on the heart, and if the heart has a foreskin, why is it the foreskin that needs to get circumcised? For example, if it was just about covenant sign (and not the removal of the cause of a stiff neck), why not just "circumcise the heart", rather than "circumcise the foreskin of the heart"? To me, it seems as if it's the foreskin of the heart that is causing some sort of problem (e.g. making one stubborn and/or insensitive).
 
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SkyWriting

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Disclaimer #1: I didn't know where else to post this to get a Christian perspective.
Disclaimer #2: I know that we can't truly and literally understand why God created these things in us.
I've got to get some gallbladder testing done because it's causing me some discomfort. It may or may not have to be removed. As most people are aware, we can live without it. That got me thinking about other things such as the appendix (which is especially useless and heinous, as it does literally nothing but can take your life) and tonsils. Things that are mostly useless and pointless but can cause severe problems. Why? Why even create them?

It's a mistake to say what we don't understand must not be God's intention.
A very strange perspective to take. "I don't get it so God must have made a mistake. "

God plans the orbit of each electron in the Cosmos.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Disclaimer #1: I didn't know where else to post this to get a Christian perspective.

Disclaimer #2: I know that we can't truly and literally understand why God created these things in us.

I've got to get some gallbladder testing done because it's causing me some discomfort. It may or may not have to be removed. As most people are aware, we can live without it. That got me thinking about other things such as the appendix (which is especially useless and heinous, as it does literally nothing but can take your life) and tonsils. Things that are mostly useless and pointless but can cause severe problems. Why? Why even create them?
Your premise is not correct. The gall bladder produces bile, which aids in digestion. You can live without it but with restrictions on diet. Recently, some scientists have suggested that the appendix may be useful:
"But new research supports the idea that the appendix may indeed serve a purpose: to protect beneficial bacteria living in the gut." (Time)

Tonsils: "The tonsils prevent foreign objects from slipping into the lungs. Think of them as goalies for the throat. They also filter bacteria and viruses. On top of all that, they produce white blood cells and antibodies, according to the Mayo Clinic."

We have remarkable bodies. How often science, which thinks itself the fount of all knowledge, is proven to be wrong. There is a new science textbook every year. God's word is unchanging. He got it right first time.

That we can survive without various organs is a testimony to the genius design that our body represents. And this body is just temporary until the spiritual body clothes those who are born again. Sin has weakened the body that God gave us, so we are prone to illness and injury. So God did not make a mistake when He made us. " I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well." Psalm 139:14
 
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SkyWriting

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Things that are mostly useless and pointless but can cause severe problems. Why? Why even create them?

That complaint about useless body parts doesn't come from medical doctors. They know better.
 
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coffee4u

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Agree on the latter point, but the man is not mutilated, so is not as violently affected as the woman. As regards to the former point, I find it hard to believe that any man who is not a sadist can agree with FGM.

So whichever way one believes, if even a part that has been removed routinely for thousands of years has a purpose, how much moreso body parts that aren't routinely removed?

Out of interest, how do you view scripture such as Deuteronomy 10:16, which states to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Of what (metaphorical) use is a foreskin on the heart, and if the heart has a foreskin, why is it the foreskin that needs to get circumcised? For example, if it was just about covenant sign (and not the removal of the cause of a stiff neck), why not just "circumcise the heart", rather than "circumcise the foreskin of the heart"? To me, it seems as if it's the foreskin of the heart that is causing some sort of problem (e.g. making one stubborn and/or insensitive).

How do you not see FGM shaping how men view women in those cultures? Of course, it does. Men there see it as normal, and they want the woman they marry to be circumcised which makes the practice continue. I am sure if men all stood up and said they did not want their wives cut the practice would stop quickly. It's as normal to them as is male circumcision is to Americans.

You do realize the female circumcision is an entire spectrum? From extremely mild to severe? In some places, it is nothing more than a ritual pinprick in others being cut off and nearly being fully sewn up.
Most Americans don't realize there is also a spectrum for male circumcision and that what is done there hardly resembles what was done in the OT.

The whole point of OT circumcision was to make a sacrifice. It was a sign that the Jewish people were different and set apart by God. As Christians, we are to sacrifice our hearts and lives to Christ.
 
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mama2one

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preteen has her tonsils & rarely gets sick

she's taken antibiotic only one time
- last fall when she caught something @ school


on other hand, my tonsils were taken out when I was 5
was sick a lot & in hospital several times as a kid & given lots of antibiotics


keep your kid's tonsils, if you can!
 
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coffee4u

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preteen has her tonsils & rarely gets sick

taken antibiotic only one time
- last fall when she caught something @ school


on other hand, my tonsils were taken out when I was 5
was sick a lot & in hospital several times as a kid
given so much antibiotic it colored my teeth

keep your kid's tonsils, if you can!

They do these days because they know better!
For us who are older, it was an epidemic of 'whip them out' :sigh:
 
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mama2one

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They do these days because they know better!
For us who are older, it was an epidemic of 'whip them out' :sigh:

except Drs STILL remove them
nephew, same age as our child, had his taken out!

he was getting sick a lot, they took tonsils out but he continued to get sick
 
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SkyWriting

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except Drs STILL remove them
nephew, same age as our child, had his taken out!
He was getting sick a lot, they took tonsils out but he continued to get sick

And that is why they avoid taking out tonsils now. Because research showed no benefits to removing them without good cause. Yes, they can occasionally be a source of infection and if no other cause is found, they might be removed.
 
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Thera

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How do you not see FGM shaping how men view women in those cultures? Of course, it does. Men there see it as normal, and they want the woman they marry to be circumcised which makes the practice continue. I am sure if men all stood up and said they did not want their wives cut the practice would stop quickly. It's as normal to them as is male circumcision is to Americans.
I don't think that men get much say in the matter. The FGM thing is a secret women's business thing, and by the time the guy marries the girl, the damage is already done. I can't imagine any normal man saying he wants less woman, as he doesn't like one of the most important aspects of her sexual organs. I guess I could be wrong, but I see this as different to circumcision. Many people of both genders are okay with circumcision, but not so with FGM.

You do realize the female circumcision is an entire spectrum? From extremely mild to severe? In some places, it is nothing more than a ritual pinprick in others being cut off and nearly being fully sewn up.
Most Americans don't realize there is also a spectrum for male circumcision and that what is done there hardly resembles what was done in the OT.
In circumcision, only foreskin is removed. In FGM, it can be the whole [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] mutilated, similar to castration on a male. I agree a ritual pinprick is probably not so severe as circumcision.

The whole point of OT circumcision was to make a sacrifice. It was a sign that the Jewish people were different and set apart by God. As Christians, we are to sacrifice our hearts and lives to Christ.
But if there was no issue for Israelite men for thousands of years, and there are health benefits for circumcision, surely that's a valid justification?
 
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coffee4u

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In circumcision, only foreskin is removed. In FGM, it can be the whole [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] mutilated, similar to castration on a male. I agree a ritual pinprick is probably not so severe as circumcision.

I have been an intactivist for years, we educate people on the practice of all forms of circumcision and intersex surgery, not just FGM. The Intactivism Pages This is not something I normally bring up on this board. The pinprick still falls under female cutting, it isn't just removal of the female foreskin that is called 'circumcision'.

In male circumcision, vastly more or less can be removed. In the original custom given by God to Abraham only the tip was removed, in the US not only was close to the entire foreskin sometimes removed but the frenulum as well. These days they tend to do low circumcisions to avoid all the side effects of the high and tight ones causing other complications. Then in some South African tribes and some other places, there is ritual amputation where the testicles are crushed.
Male genital mutilation (amputation) and its complications: a case report
Mutilated boys are not given nearly as much public awareness as mutilated girls. It happens both ways, in both sterile and filthy conditions, from mild to severe. While people only focus on the rights of women they are overlooking what is happening to boys.
Pricking in the African Diaspora: Current Evidence and Recurrent Debates
The AAP tried to bring back ritual female pricking and nicks If You Prick Me but this was downturned being called mutilation.
As you can see one rule for males and another for females. Our aim is to speak up and stop all ritual/social cutting on minors. We are not against adults modifying themselves with full consent, but adults modifying children. We want the same standards and rights applied to female, male and intersex children.

But if there was no issue for Israelite men for thousands of years, and there are health benefits for circumcision, surely that's a valid justification?

I am sure there were some issues for Jewish men, as you don't have a sacrifice without some cost, but very few risks because most of the foreskin was originally left. 100 boys die each year in the US from side effects of RIC. No small health benefit can ever make up to even one life lost. Satan perverted the practice so people believed circumcision was the removal of the entire foreskin, but that was never God's intension or purpose, it was merely the very tip. That happened because people believed masturbation caused all kinds of illness and John Harvey Kellog made the practice popular in America on boys for this reason but failed to make it popular on girls-although he tried. By the way female circumcision only became illegal in the US on March 29, 1997. On intact boys, Kellogg advised that a wire be pushed through. Pleasant chap.
This left the US with the feeling that the foreskin was a sinful dirty piece of the body and it became vilified. This feeling still runs through the US today but people bury that under the guise of 'health benefits' when in reality what most of them think is 'the foreskin is dirty and gross and looks better removed'. It is simple cultural bias, which is no different in countries that circumcise females. Circumcision is touted to lower the risk of UTI, but given that the risk in normal boys of about 1%, the number of circumcisions needed to prevent one UTI is 111. Meanwhile for every boy who presents to the doctor with a UTI will be 6 girls -but nobody mentions that. Females are just given antibiotics and instructions on better hygiene practices.

There are a few minuscule health benefits, most of which are outweighed by the side effects of the operation and negated by condoms. Of course removing the foreskin means no risk of an infection under the foreskin, the same way that removing your toe will stop you ever having an ingrown toenail, but this does not make it a good thing to do on children.
 
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Thera

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I have been an intactivist for years, we educate people on the practice of all forms of circumcision and intersex surgery, not just FGM. The Intactivism Pages This is not something I normally bring up on this board. The pinprick still falls under female cutting, it isn't just removal of the female foreskin that is called 'circumcision'.

In male circumcision, vastly more or less can be removed. In the original custom given by God to Abraham only the tip was removed, in the US not only was close to the entire foreskin sometimes removed but the frenulum as well. These days they tend to do low circumcisions to avoid all the side effects of the high and tight ones causing other complications. Then in some South African tribes and some other places, there is ritual amputation where the testicles are crushed.
Male genital mutilation (amputation) and its complications: a case report
Mutilated boys are not given nearly as much public awareness as mutilated girls. It happens both ways, in both sterile and filthy conditions, from mild to severe. While people only focus on the rights of women they are overlooking what is happening to boys.
Pricking in the African Diaspora: Current Evidence and Recurrent Debates
The AAP tried to bring back ritual female pricking and nicks If You Prick Me but this was downturned being called mutilation.
As you can see one rule for males and another for females. Our aim is to speak up and stop all ritual/social cutting on minors. We are not against adults modifying themselves with full consent, but adults modifying children. We want the same standards and rights applied to female, male and intersex children.



I am sure there were some issues for Jewish men, as you don't have a sacrifice without some cost, but very few risks because most of the foreskin was originally left. 100 boys die each year in the US from side effects of RIC. No small health benefit can ever make up to even one life lost. Satan perverted the practice so people believed circumcision was the removal of the entire foreskin, but that was never God's intension or purpose, it was merely the very tip. That happened because people believed masturbation caused all kinds of illness and John Harvey Kellog made the practice popular in America on boys for this reason but failed to make it popular on girls-although he tried. By the way female circumcision only became illegal in the US on March 29, 1997. On intact boys, Kellogg advised that a wire be pushed through. Pleasant chap.
This left the US with the feeling that the foreskin was a sinful dirty piece of the body and it became vilified. This feeling still runs through the US today but people bury that under the guise of 'health benefits' when in reality what most of them think is 'the foreskin is dirty and gross and looks better removed'. It is simple cultural bias, which is no different in countries that circumcise females. Circumcision is touted to lower the risk of UTI, but given that the risk in normal boys of about 1%, the number of circumcisions needed to prevent one UTI is 111. Meanwhile for every boy who presents to the doctor with a UTI will be 6 girls -but nobody mentions that. Females are just given antibiotics and instructions on better hygiene practices.

There are a few minuscule health benefits, most of which are outweighed by the side effects of the operation and negated by condoms. Of course removing the foreskin means no risk of an infection under the foreskin, the same way that removing your toe will stop you ever having an ingrown toenail, but this does not make it a good thing to do on children.
You present a persuasive case. :)
 
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