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Why did America allow slavery?

Diamond72

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How can anyone think what is going on in the world right now is fine?
We are not talking about the world, we are talking about the united states. Hopefully we can set an example for the world on how we are to live our lives.
And slavery was an economical way to obtain plantation workers.
So you think they were justified in what they did?
people have the luxury and privilege
People with luxury and privilege still have problems. But no one has any compassion for them. No one wants to hear about rich people problems. They listen to the poor because they think the poor are exploited. But my son has no compassion for the poor. He thinks they should work harder to take advantage of their opportunities.
 
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Diamond72

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You're imagining the worst end of the spectrum. We might consider that on the other end, a slave is taught a trade, helps in building a business, awarded his freedom, hired for a wage, starts his own business, buys his own slaves. This happened as well.
The Bible does tell us that all things work together for good.
 
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Diamond72

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I am very curious what to you makes abolition so obvious.
The Bible talks about freedom. In God we are free. Apart from God, there is bondage. We can tolerate more, we can put up with more when we are free to make our own decisions and we are not being forced or compelled. A miserable job can become less miserable if we know we are free to walk away from it anytime we want to.
 
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Ana the Ist

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We are not talking about the world, we are talking about the united states. Hopefully we can set an example for the world on how we are to live our lives.

We're also talking about times when the US was a colony of Britain and effectively a very new nation. The influence we had then is not what we had post WW2. The US Declared Independence in 1776. We began the difficult task of setting up a system of self governance and fought multiple wars to keep our sovereignty. We ended slavery roughly 100 years later.

Perhaps there is a nation or people somewhere that practiced slavery for a shorter time before ending the practice...but I cannot think of any. Our legacy of slavery isn't anything to be proud of....but it's not anything to be ashamed of either. We inherited it.. and cast it off, when we were both able to do so....and unwilling to tolerate the violation of our stated principles.


So you think they were justified in what they did?

Justified? Why would anyone need to justify the deeds of another? We can explain them and understand their behavior better if we abandon the moral judgment and look at the reasons why they did what they did.

People with luxury and privilege
still have problems. But no one has any compassion for them. No one wants to hear about rich people problems. They listen to the poor because they think the poor are exploited. But my son has no compassion for the poor. He thinks they should work harder to take advantage of their opportunities.

We are a nation where children are too often fed images of luxury and wealth which appears attainable for nothing. In doing so, they become entitled, resentful, narcissistic, and unrealistic in their expectations. They do not want to work hard, at a regular job, for the mere comforts of a normal life. I have the utmost sympathy for anyone who has been laid low by unexpected tragedy. I have no sympathy for the foolish who think they can simply demand wealth or deserve it for their mere existence.
 
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jayem

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So you think they were justified in what they did?
Of course not. But you asked the question of why slavery was allowed. It was allowed because of a need for cheap labor.

And for sure, slavery was also justified by racism, which was overt and commonplace. (Unfortunately, such thinking still exists, though it's taboo in modern society.) Here's an excerpt from the "Cornerstone" Speech, given by Alexander Stephens, the CSA Vice President, in 1861:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Cornerstone Speech
 
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Ana the Ist

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Of course not. But you asked the question of why slavery was allowed. It was allowed because of a need for cheap labor.

And for sure, slavery was also justified by racism, which was overt and commonplace. (Unfortunately, such thinking still exists, though it's taboo in modern society.) Here's an excerpt from the "Cornerstone" Speech, given by Alexander Stephens, the CSA Vice President, in 1861:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Cornerstone Speech

A Confederate State advocate arguing for a peaceful resolution to the division between north and south wherein the north respects the slave owning tradition of the south isn't probably the best picture of commonly held beliefs for the entirety of the US at the time.

It's not as if the north lacked for racism. You could find it as easily there as you could the south. The abolitionists were racist. The slaves themselves held racist beliefs. Freed black people held racist beliefs. Political advocates for abolition held racist beliefs.

Racism had been introduced rather slowly and eventually took over as a political narrative justifying slavery. The same can't be said of earlier colonists though....as concepts of race were foreign to them. Various conceptions of race were essentially proposed by taxonomists. Men going around the world trying to explain various differences between species and biological features. Racial theories about man proliferated well after the trans-Atlantic slave trade was a fully functional enterprise.
 
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studentinprayer

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I’ve read a few of your posts now, and I am starting to observe your on a deep journey to do better. To craft yourself into a true man of God. I can’t wait to hear more about your findings.

In this context, I take your deeper question with this thread to be: we’ve all heard it said systemic racism is the root of a lot of evils and correcting it can make society better. How can we do better in that light.

To respond to that in the American context, I would first like to clarify some history, which is rarely contextualize in regards to this subject.

In the Dixie south, who were the ‘insiders’ and ‘outsiders’? The establishment was who one might call good-southern boys and belles, by contrast to the north this was an aristocratic sort preferring a democratized old European style court to that of the more humble stuffy puritan-quaker built north. They valued being clever and politically connected. Appearance was everything. Being an outsider often worse than anything. Unlike the north, the Military was a huge institution. In this way, militaristic ideas and solutions were more prevalent.

The common folk(outsiders) to whom this establishment was disconnected one might call hillbillies(Cajun french canadians, southern Irish, cowboys, farm boys, mountain folk) this group cared little about politics. Their culture was the tribe.They wanted to be left alone. Be independent. But they have all the culture, the songs, the stories, the grit, the fighting spirit that made the army strong. So don't think they are not visible or influential.

The civil war despite affecting everyone was between southern and northern elites. It was not a southern slave revolt. It was just another call to arms for the southern hillbillies. Because of that, the deeper wound for those ex-slave blacks was being cast out without warning, ritual, preparation, political power or organization. Millions made homeless/destitute without community leaders, meaningful suffrage or support. A wise America would have given them a state and assistance to grow instead resentment and prejudice over a costly war done in their name.

American blacks are an industrious community despite many barriers they began to build up and make a culture of their own. Their strongest allies in the south, the hillbillies were embraced making a parallel culture due to a politically enforced racial segregation which spread nation-wide. Not all though were so unpolitical, hardened by war with the racist southern establishment another culture emerged in the black south: racial identitarians, who rally against two groups black hillbillies(who make them look bad) and the white establishment(their natural opponent). Others blacks more industrialist than hillbilly culture allows but not interested in the racial black identitarians moved west/north. This culture of this mostly middle-class blacks marked by facing a lie they were told as children about their journey out of the black enclaves into other white-majority cultures: when racism isn’t in the open, it's often still done with a smile.

Meanwhile, the southern power balance began to shift. The old southern democrats were about to get wiped out by the new power bases which rising up from the hillbillies, black identitarians and non-southern immigrates (who embraced southern culture but not her politics - also sometimes deemed the looming republican majority).

Southern democrats are a pragmatic bunch, so they changed their coalition to try and keep power bringing in the black identitarians and shifting their target audience to disaffected middle-classes like the formerly mentioned blacks living white majority-culture. It was easy, republican leadership were dominated by an out-of-touch industrialist class and far from nimble and politically savvy. This is also why you see the democratic swing in the black vote even before the democratic party embraced civil rights and dropped it’s anti-black positions and why you saw republican black support disappear as they ignore even basic poltical concerns from the black community.

Today, people are still having to deal with the trauma their ancestors went through. I have been told that they can still feel it in their blood. I was talking to a black girl once and it was as if I had a vision where I could see shackles on her ankles. I did not say anything to her. So I am not aware of if she noticed anything or not.

God can go back in time and bring about the healing that people want and need. These are the sort of things that people need to work out because there is no unforgiveness in Heaven. We all abide in love for one another in Heaven and we need to prepare ourself for that now here in this life.

God works all things together for God. So there must be something in all of this that He will cause good to come out of it. That is His promise to us.
So…

You see ‘white guilt’ is actually designed to enforce racial divisions.

Systemic racism is very much real, but is as much about expectations as any racist action. Outsiders aren’t trusted like insiders and so we have systemic racism which will happen anytime your a racial minority. It something to learn, but it really only requires simple awareness the correction is good social skills not being a werido about it, which unfortunately we’re very bad at teaching and doing.

In terms of feeling it in their blood. I doubt that is a historic wound. It’s the fact black children are vividly told they are hunted down by white people on a daily basis. Any child would feel race anger if they were told all the crazy visual and vivild violent things blacks are told about whites on the daily by tv, internet and conversation. In terms of your feelings, your told those same stories bur identify with a different character.

In terms, of the problems of black majority cities. It all steams from that terrible democratic coalition mixed with a feckless and useless republican opposition which makes no effort to incorporate black communities. Single party administration is always terrible be it left/right, black/white, woman/man etc etc.

Problems with American blacks in statistics. Hillbilly culture espeically when moved into an urban environment. You move any hillbilly to any city, they don't thrive. The sad thing is this culture isn't even a majority(just more culturally relevant), most middle-class blacks just get painted with that brush by embracing their blackness no different from any middle-class white southerner who embraces their southren-ness.

And btw, I love hillbillies and just as I can easily live in the rural south by showing respect and keeping to my own business. I can thrive in those urban environments with the same norms. Race has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, hopefully you or someone else finds somthing useful in my too long overly analytical post. I look forward to this no unforgiveness.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I’ve read a few of your posts now, and I am starting to observe your on a deep journey to do better. To craft yourself into a true man of God. I can’t wait to hear more about your findings.

In this context, I take your deeper question with this thread to be: we’ve all heard it said systemic racism is the root of a lot of evils and correcting it can make society better. How can we do better in that light.

To respond to that in the American context, I would first like to clarify some history, which is rarely contextualize in regards to this subject.

In the Dixie south, who were the ‘insiders’ and ‘outsiders’? The establishment was who one might call good-southern boys and belles, by contrast to the north this was an aristocratic sort preferring a democratized old European style court to that of the more humble stuffy puritan-quaker built north. They valued being clever and politically connected. Appearance was everything. Being an outsider often worse than anything. Unlike the north, the Military was a huge institution. In this way, militaristic ideas and solutions were more prevalent.

The common folk(outsiders) to whom this establishment was disconnected one might call hillbillies(Cajun french canadians, southern Irish, cowboys, farm boys, mountain folk) this group cared little about politics. Their culture was the tribe.They wanted to be left alone. Be independent. But they have all the culture, the songs, the stories, the grit, the fighting spirit that made the army strong. So don't think they are not visible or influential.

The civil war despite affecting everyone was between southern and northern elites. It was not a southern slave revolt. It was just another call to arms for the southern hillbillies. Because of that, the deeper wound for those ex-slave blacks was being cast out without warning, ritual, preparation, political power or organization. Millions made homeless/destitute without community leaders, meaningful suffrage or support. A wise America would have given them a state and assistance to grow instead resentment and prejudice over a costly war done in their name.

American blacks are an industrious community despite many barriers they began to build up and make a culture of their own. Their strongest allies in the south, the hillbillies were embraced making a parallel culture due to a politically enforced racial segregation which spread nation-wide. Not all though were so unpolitical, hardened by war with the racist southern establishment another culture emerged in the black south: racial identitarians, who rally against two groups black hillbillies(who make them look bad) and the white establishment(their natural opponent). Others blacks more industrialist than hillbilly culture allows but not interested in the racial black identitarians moved west/north. This culture of this mostly middle-class blacks marked by facing a lie they were told as children about their journey out of the black enclaves into other white-majority cultures: when racism isn’t in the open, it's often still done with a smile.

Meanwhile, the southern power balance began to shift. The old southern democrats were about to get wiped out by the new power bases which rising up from the hillbillies, black identitarians and non-southern immigrates (who embraced southern culture but not her politics - also sometimes deemed the looming republican majority).

Southern democrats are a pragmatic bunch, so they changed their coalition to try and keep power bringing in the black identitarians and shifting their target audience to disaffected middle-classes like the formerly mentioned blacks living white majority-culture. It was easy, republican leadership were dominated by an out-of-touch industrialist class and far from nimble and politically savvy. This is also why you see the democratic swing in the black vote even before the democratic party embraced civil rights and dropped it’s anti-black positions and why you saw republican black support disappear as they ignore even basic poltical concerns from the black community.


So…

You see ‘white guilt’ is actually designed to enforce racial divisions.

Systemic racism is very much real, but is as much about expectations as any racist action. Outsiders aren’t trusted like insiders and so we have systemic racism which will happen anytime your a racial minority. It something to learn, but it really only requires simple awareness the correction is good social skills not being a werido about it, which unfortunately we’re very bad at teaching and doing.

In terms of feeling it in their blood. I doubt that is a historic wound. It’s the fact black children are vividly told they are hunted down by white people on a daily basis. Any child would feel race anger if they were told all the crazy visual and vivild violent things blacks are told about whites on the daily by tv, internet and conversation. In terms of your feelings, your told those same stories bur identify with a different character.

In terms, of the problems of black majority cities. It all steams from that terrible democratic coalition mixed with a feckless and useless republican opposition which makes no effort to incorporate black communities. Single party administration is always terrible be it left/right, black/white, woman/man etc etc.

Problems with American blacks in statistics. Hillbilly culture espeically when moved into an urban environment. You move any hillbilly to any city, they don't thrive. The sad thing is this culture isn't even a majority(just more culturally relevant), most middle-class blacks just get painted with that brush by embracing their blackness no different from any middle-class white southerner who embraces their southren-ness.

And btw, I love hillbillies and just as I can easily live in the rural south by showing respect and keeping to my own business. I can thrive in those urban environments with the same norms. Race has nothing to do with it.
WHAT?
Anyway, hopefully you or someone else finds somthing useful in my too long overly analytical post. I look forward to this no unforgiveness.
Nothing useful, not "analytic", no forgiveness granted (as you seem to want).
 
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studentinprayer

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WHAT?

Nothing useful, not "analytic", no forgiveness granted (as you seem to want).
Your post made me smile and thanks for reading some of it. A quick look over your past posts, I am guessing your pretty into the mainline democratic politics? Yeah, I am pretty much Satan, but also one of the dumbest Americans in America according to that lens. I'd invite you to put your ethics and insights of history against mine any day, but in my experience it's really just me making statements based on being a huge nerd with comments of feigned outrage at my stupidity, dyslexia and lack of true empathy.

And yes, I would want your forgiveness as my posts are my written thoughts and chaotic where as the best posts are short, clear and insightful hopefully one day I'll get there. The "no-forgiveness" comment through refers to Diamond7's post "These are the sort of things that people need to work out because there is no unforgiveness in Heaven."
 
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jayem

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A Confederate State advocate arguing for a peaceful resolution to the division between north and south wherein the north respects the slave owning tradition of the south isn't probably the best picture of commonly held beliefs for the entirety of the US at the time.

It's not as if the north lacked for racism. You could find it as easily there as you could the south. The abolitionists were racist. The slaves themselves held racist beliefs. Freed black people held racist beliefs. Political advocates for abolition held racist beliefs.

Racism had been introduced rather slowly and eventually took over as a political narrative justifying slavery. The same can't be said of earlier colonists though....as concepts of race were foreign to them. Various conceptions of race were essentially proposed by taxonomists. Men going around the world trying to explain various differences between species and biological features. Racial theories about man proliferated well after the trans-Atlantic slave trade was a fully functional enterprise.
I don’t disagree. The idea of white supremacy was generally accepted as undeniable fact. But slavery, not so much. Georgia is my home state. My home town is Savannah, where Stephens gave his speech. GA was the last of the original 13 colonies. It was founded in 1733 by James Oglethorpe—a general in the British army, and one of King George’s favorites. In the charter, which Oglethorpe wrote, 3 things were forbidden in the colony of GA: 1) Slavery. 2) Lawyers. 3) Catholics. None of those prohibitions lasted very long. But it illustrates that even an educated, highly positioned, upper class man in the 18th century—who opposed slavery—still had other prejudices.
 
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RDKirk

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So does that mean God would judge people based on how good they treated their slaves? In the same way that a good man takes good care of his animals rather than to abuse them?
"How they were regarded" will be a factor.

Take a look at this:

And the Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose that servant says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and he begins to beat the menservants and maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
-- Luke 12

Compare it to this:

And masters, do the same for your slaves. Give up your use of threats, because you know that He who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with Him -- Ephesians 6

Romans considered their slaves to be chattel...personal property, fully owned (with some slight restrictions on humane treatment imposed by the Empire).

Ephesians changes that relationship. It doesn't demand emancipation of slaves, but it totally changes the chattel relationship between masters and slaves by asserting the "master" is also a slave to One who is Master of them both, and the Master of them both does not regard one any more highly than the other.

Ephesians 6 turns the Roman "master" into the servant-steward of Luke 12. To paraphrase, "He is God's servant just as you are God's servant. He is not your property, he is your responsibility. Their master is your master, and you will be held responsible for his welfare."
 
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RDKirk

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Depends on the state. Also usually only one person in a family actually "owned" the "slaves". According to the Census of 1860, 30.8 percent of the free families in the confederacy owned slaves. That means that every third white person in those states had a direct commitment to slavery.

Even if it were only one percent, all the more I wonder why the other 99% was not doing something about it. Even if the slaves were considered to be a part of the family. They do a lot now to make sure that there is no abuse like that going on in a family. People can get up to 12 years in jail.
Slavery devalued the labor of white men, including skilled labor. That was certainly understood at the time...the "cheap labor" of slavery was the reason Northern white men fought against its extension into the new Western territories and states.

It's interesting that Southern white men were willing to fight and die for a system that kept them poor.
 
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RDKirk

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I guess I am assuming that young girls were raped and today people get serious time in jail for that. Of course I understand the Stockholm syndrome and people that make the best of a bad situation are far better off.

Today, people are still having to deal with the trauma their ancestors went through. I have been told that they can still feel it in their blood. I was talking to a black girl once and it was as if I had a vision where I could see shackles on her ankles. I did not say anything to her. So I am not aware of if she noticed anything or not.
That's a matter of suggestion. Trauma is not genetic.

Behaviors, however, are passed as "culture" from generation to generation as though they were a generational curse. There are certainly dysfunctional behaviors that were forced upon slaves, enforced by Jim Crow, and still exist within American blacks today.
 
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RDKirk

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You're imagining the worst end of the spectrum. We might consider that on the other end, a slave is taught a trade, helps in building a business, awarded his freedom, hired for a wage, starts his own business, buys his own slaves. This happened as well.
What was under the peak of the bell curve, though?

It was certainly not the rule that "a slave is taught a trade, helps in building a business, awarded his freedom, hired for a wage, starts his own business, buys his own slaves." If that had been the common practice, there would not have been a war. That would have been a beacon of enlightenment.
 
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RDKirk

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People with luxury and privilege still have problems. But no one has any compassion for them. No one wants to hear about rich people problems. They listen to the poor because they think the poor are exploited. But my son has no compassion for the poor. He thinks they should work harder to take advantage of their opportunities.
Your son needs to spend some more time among the world's poor.

Poor people in this world work harder than anyone.
 
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RDKirk

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A Confederate State advocate arguing for a peaceful resolution to the division between north and south wherein the north respects the slave owning tradition of the south isn't probably the best picture of commonly held beliefs for the entirety of the US at the time.
The issue was still going to be whether slavery would be extended to the new Western territories. Northern white men understood that slavery devalued their own labor. Slavery was the "globalized labor" issue of their time.
 
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RDKirk

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People can be a slave to sin. But before the civil war, we had what they call chattel when one person owned another. How could anyone ever think something like this should be legal? They talk about slavery in the Bible, but that had to do with debt and you could only hold a person for 7 years. Then you had to set them free. If it was a prisoner of war the Jubilee was every 50 years. So no matter what, slavery could not go from generation to generation the way it did in Southern or Rebel America.
From a Christian point of view, the problem with American slavery was the attempt to justify it based on the Old Testament.

I find it interesting that such justification only appeared after 1800 or so. Prior to that time, even Southern slaveholders were willing to admit that slavery was a sin against God. At one point during the Constitutional Convention, all the delegates from slaveholding states except those from South Carolina had agreed to put abolition language into the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson, prior to 1800, even wrote that sooner or later God would punish them for it.

Something changed in a big way around 1800 to cause slaveholders to stop seeing slavery as a sin and begin attempting to use the Old Testament to justify it (even after Christians in the rest of the world had found in scripture the argument for abolition).
 
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Hans Blaster

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Your post made me smile and thanks for reading some of it. A quick look over your past posts, I am guessing your pretty into the mainline democratic politics?
I'm not a Democrat, but yeah, I'm a liberal.
Yeah, I am pretty much Satan,
I don't think so. I don't believe in such things.
but also one of the dumbest Americans in America according to that lens.
According to your profile your aren't any kind of American, you're a Canadian.
I'd invite you to put your ethics and insights of history against mine any day, but in my experience it's really just me making statements based on being a huge nerd with comments of feigned outrage at my stupidity, dyslexia and lack of true empathy.

Your posts about US history and slavery have been largely incoherent, and frequently wrong. That is why I wrote "WHAT?".
And yes, I would want your forgiveness as my posts are my written thoughts and chaotic where as the best posts are short, clear and insightful hopefully one day I'll get there. The "no-forgiveness" comment through refers to Diamond7's post "These are the sort of things that people need to work out because there is no unforgiveness in Heaven."
I find heaven to be irrelevant in these discussions.
 
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