Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Given the track record of those opposed to EGW: claimed she was a millionaire when she was not. Claimed she was accumulating property when she wasn't. Claimed she was a plagiarist when they haven't even done the work necessary to prove it. Claimed she contradicted Scripture over 50 times when she didn't. Claimed that some of her "prophecies" didn't come true when she didn't even make a prophecy in the first place! Why should I believe them? How many times and ways do they have to be proven wrong before you stop listening to them and repeating their nonsense???

I have not been listening to them that long, I am questing and looking in to the possiblity that she might be wrong. As of yet I have not heard a response from you that contradicts and conteracts the critis not one statments, only that you are right and we are we are wrong. Show me evidence showing that contradicts and counteracts what the critics are saying. You tell me what you believe and what I should believe but don't offer and valid reasons as to why I should believe you over them. That is why I participated in this thread I want the SDA to counter act the critcs statments, but they won't even venture the slightest defence or counter attack. If they are lying show me the evidence, don't just tell me they are wrong. just denials, invaladiation and accuasation of hereasy.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Given the track record of those opposed to EGW: claimed she was a millionaire when she was not. Claimed she was accumulating property when she wasn't. Claimed she was a plagiarist when they haven't even done the work necessary to prove it. Claimed she contradicted Scripture over 50 times when she didn't. Claimed that some of her "prophecies" didn't come true when she didn't even make a prophecy in the first place! Why should I believe them? How many times and ways do they have to be proven wrong before you stop listening to them and repeating their nonsense???

I have never claimed she was a millionare, although living in the big house when she died one thends to wonder how she could afford and how she imployed her staff. A simple way to conter act this is to get a copy of her financial statments and post a link to them. eas and done. " claims to contradict scriptue 50 times. put a side by side comparison to EGW and scripture and EGW and see if they don't match. Un true prophecy side by side comparison between the critics claim and EGW statements. with every argument side by side comparison the claims of the critis the claims of egw. compare and conclude.

OntheDL · Jan 20, 2007

tall73 said:
I am game!

Please present your arguments on the terms EGW used regarding the law particularly in Galatians.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Because it is true. See some of the evidence at http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html

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Do you really expect me to read all of it the moment you post it, there are hundreds of pages. I have checked out your material, it will take at least a month to go over your material. Here's a thought. why don't you go to you book click and paste a response here to give example of your study. Like I did with the critics. that way we all can "see" it. It does not have to all of the information just a few examples will do. that would quallify as evidence. and be very helpful in the discussion, instead of just stating what you believe. that is how evidence works.

Second why don't you answer the question in a striaght fore ward manner like others have. I ask DL what he believer he tells me what he believe and then we discuss it . we don't alway agree, but aleast I know we he stands and we discuss. I can respect a person who does that even if I don't agree with Him. For example I said lets study the law in galations and pauls use of the las tall73 say I'm game and we did.
I ask you and you come up with an excuse, "I don't have to because it's only a question."not respectable, either want to discuss or don't,either you have evidence or you don't bring you best evidence foreward and lets take a look at it. You expect me to drop every thing read your book tonight, believe everything you say because you say it and have a scholarly response in a matter of minutes. then you invalidate my response and call me trouble maker any ways. come on

Did I? Well, let's see: at http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/bibliography.html

it lists the interview with Dr. Veltman as #242 _______ "The Desire of Ages project: the conclusions," Ministry (December 1990): 11-5.

I have also written to him and talked with him on the phone.

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what did he say? why did he say that it would cause problems

So, the short answer to your question is yes and it is also just as obvious that you don't look at what others post

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Its 900 pages do you really expect me to do tonight that is bigger then some versions of the whole bible.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

OntheDL said:
Please present your arguments on the terms EGW used regarding the law particularly in Galatians.

were getting to that DL. we are first establishing the use of the law in pauls writings. sophia7 will be editing the post with the EGW comments to include source,date of publication so we can see if there is a change of usage over time.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Dr. Jerry Moon

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Who???

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

As of yet I have not heard a response from you that contradicts and conteracts the critis not one statments,

You may have missed the post in which I stated that I have emailed Dr. Jerry Moon ab't the shut-door question. I am waiting for his response.

I have also posted how there were errors in one of the posts (#34?).

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

Working backwards here!

So, the short answer to your question is yes and it is also just as obvious that you don't look at what others post

Click to expand...

Its 900 pages do you really expect me to do tonight that is bigger then some versions of the whole bible.

My beef was that you basically ask us to drop everything, go to various web sites, and deal with alleged "issues." But when I post a link you show that you never even went there!

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

Dr. Jerry Moon

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Who???

Evidently you missed the post in which I noted that he had written an article on the shut-door issue. I have emailed him and am waiting for his response.

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

I have also written to him and talked with him on the phone.

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what did he say? why did he say that it would cause problems

He told me his experience at a conference with scholars on how to determine if EGW was a plagiarist.

I didn't ask him ab't the quote you posted. My reading of it is that since he started with an assumption that EGW was literary dependent on others that this colored his perceptions. Secondly, some people start with the unwarranted assumption that EGW was verbally inspired. That also affects how they "see" things.

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

I ask you and you come up with an excuse, "I don't have to because it's only a question."not respectable, either want to discuss or don't,either you have evidence or you don't bring you best evidence foreward and lets take a look at it. You expect me to drop every thing read your book tonight, believe everything you say because you say it and have a scholarly response in a matter of minutes. then you invalidate my response and call me trouble maker any ways. come on

First of all, I never called you a trouble maker.

Secondly, I made a suggestion in the form of question and your response was not very polite. And I don'tlike the above either.

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

Because it is true. See some of the evidence at http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html

Click to expand...

Do you really expect me to read all of it the moment you post it, there are hundreds of pages. I have checked out your material, it will take at least a month to go over your material. Here's a thought. why don't you go to you book click and paste a response here to give example of your study. Like I did with the critics. that way we all can "see" it. It does not have to all of the information just a few examples will do. that would quallify as evidence. and be very helpful in the discussion, instead of just stating what you believe. that is how evidence works.

1) I am well aware that there's lots of material on that page. I'm also sure it will take you time to read it all. In the meantime why make posts as if it doesn't exist?

2) In some forums it against the rules to cut and paste for web sites and post them -- I was actually shocked to see the large blocks that you posted.

3) If I posted one example I know that one of the first questions I'm going to get is: is the representative of what she did or did you simply pick the best one for your POV? I'm not going to fall for that routine.

4) The web site is open to any and all so all who want to can see it.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Working backwards here!

My beef was that you basically ask us to drop everything, go to various web sites, and deal with alleged "issues." But when I post a link you show that you never even went there!

that is not true. I have gone and looked. I looked at the sda archive, but could not access it because I don't have the right software. and am using a comuter that belongs to someone else and he uses linux in stead of windows so I don't know how to install the proper stuff. I am sorry if you think that I just want to fight believe me I don't. but i will not take answers that don't make sense and won't deal with issues. This is a serisous thread and should be treated in a serious manner. We are talking about changing my belief system, that is not something I take lightly. I want real answer that make sense and some of the answers don't make sense. I don't want to be toyed with and some of the answers seem like toying.

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

A simple way to conter act this is to get a copy of her financial statments and post a link to them. eas and done. " claims to contradict scriptue 50 times. put a side by side comparison to EGW and scripture and EGW and see if they don't match. Un true prophecy side by side comparison between the critics claim and EGW statements. with every argument side by side comparison the claims of the critis the claims of egw. compare and conclude.

Way too much work. Simpler is to point to where it has already been dealt with.

As for her will see http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Appendix%20N.html

On the contradicting the Bible claim see: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/contradictions.html (53 charges dealt with)

Ran across these pages about the shut door: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCaxA.html#sth40

Shut-door documents: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

Shut door - case study: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt44.html from Messenger of the Lord: The Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White by Herbert E. Douglass

Looks like the "issue" has already been dealt with repeatedly--its our research skills that are in question! Oh well, can't study everything!

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

icedragon101: you missed post #153

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
First of all, I never called you a trouble maker.

Secondly, I made a suggestion in the form of question and your response was

not very polite.

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see I think this is ridiclous, I think you are too defensive. and need to loosen up. your feelings get hurt to easy

And I don'tlike the above either.

Click to expand...

I am sorry that the above is not to your liking, but there is nothing harsh about what i said, just a striaght for discussion of the problem. there is no attck on you as a person. I have not said you are bad or implied anythig about your character. maybe you are not used to that kind of talk. I have said that I don't like they way you post responses. that is all. there is nothing rude about that. I think I have gotten 1 or 2 posts from you that actually deal with the questions involved.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

djconklin said:
Post 34 from http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw1.htm sates that:

"(1) Joseph Bates held the view that there would be a 7-year period where Christ would test His children and that Christ would return to earth in 1851. (2) In 1848 there was a war in Europe, and later a pestilence occurred, and the Advent believers took these events as signs that the time of trouble had commenced. (3) Ellen White had visions supporting this "shut door" doctrine, and James White's paper--Present Truth--trumpeted the shut door teaching up until late 1850." (I added the numbers in parenthesis.)

Where's the proof for any of those 3 claims?

There was no "war" in Europe in 1848--there were revolutions tho'. See http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook19.html Doesn't it seem odd that they should get such a basic fact wrong? How many others are there that no one has looked at?

This web site also runs the claim that EGW plagiarized through paraphrasing (http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw89.htm). However, when one actually look at the data it turns out to be false:

1) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_40_rea.html

2) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_49_rea.html

3) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_73_rea.html

4) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_74_rea.html

5) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_83.html

6) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_85_rea.html

7) http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/DA_18_march.html

When I was little I'd get spanked if I disobeyed. Luckily I learned real quick what not to do to avoid getting spanked. The above shows the ciritics getting it 8 times. How many more times do they have to get it before they learn?

I didn't miss this one I just need time to look at it. It is a valid question and I will look into it.

djconklin · Jan 20, 2007

your feelings get hurt to easy

That's because I'm like the miner's canary and can easily tell when people are being too rough on others.

OTOH, men are too beligerant online.

Sophia7 · Jan 20, 2007

icedragon101 said:
sophia7 will be editing the post with the EGW comments to include source,date of publication so we can see if there is a change of usage over time.

The sources were already there* and some of the dates. I edited my post (#96) to add as many dates as I could find, and I highlighted them as well as the sources in red. The only date that I couldn't find was when the quote from 3SM was originally written, but from the context it was obviously after the 1888 meeting. I also added one quote, from the Review and Herald, 1898.

It is unfortunate that she never could remember what she had said to J. H. Waggoner in 1856, of which Uriah Smith had such a vivid recollection, believing that she had changed her position by 1888, when Waggoner's son (E. J. Waggoner) publicly expressed the same views that his father had believed but had kept silent at the counsel of EGW. Whether she actually changed her views on this over time is somewhat unclear; it could be that people have just misunderstood what she meant on some of these things.

* Key to abbreviations of EGW works used in my post:

1SM--Selected Messages, Book 1, 1958
AA--The Acts of the Apostles, 1911
LP--Sketches from the Life of Paul, 1883
3SM--Selected Messages, Book 3, 1980
9MR--Manuscript Releases, Vol. 9, 1990

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

OntheDL said:
Please present your arguments on the terms EGW used regarding the law particularly in Galatians.

Why?

I was just addressing the biblical question about Paul.

Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

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