Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

[Sophia7]

Lets consider the timeline:

1844 October and the Millerites' view on the shut door.

1844 December Ellen White received her first vision.

Her view was corrected by the new light.

I think the quotes here are clear:

1. Ellen White never claimed to receive visions prior to Dec-1844.

2. Ellen White's understanding of the shut door was corrected by God through the Dec-1844 and subsequence visions.

3. There is no direct indication that these quotes EGW wrote to support her earlier view on the shut door.

The Bible does support the shut down. There will be a time just prior to Christ's 2nd coming, the probation is closed. And for each individual, probation can be closed due to the constant rejections. The enemies of Adventism cleverly confuse this shut door with the shut door of Millerites' understanding.

If the enemies of our denomination are going to charge EGW with lying and deceiving, they will need stronger more direct evidence than this. The bible also says Judas hanged himself and go do likewise. We need to show the two are talking about the same thing.

What about the quotes I asked earlier to support your statement that EGW contradicted herself on the law in Galatians? Have you been able to find it?

Your timeline is skewed to fit the post-shut-door Adventist perspective. James himself (see quote from him above) said that his wife's first vision was given after she had abandoned the shut door and that the vision led her to return to it. She held to the shut-door theory from the time of her first vision until sometime around 1851, and God did not correct her during all that time, while she was not laboring for the salvation of souls. The later quotes from her deny that she ever held that view, but her earlier words prove otherwise.

You have also ignored the fact that her accompanying angel in the vision quoted from above showed her that the time for sinners to repent was past. Her view at the time was not that this was a future close of probation but rather one that had already happened in 1844. The vision was wrong.

I'll look up the quotes on the law in Galatians.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

thank-you sophia7 for making a coment about the post

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Shut Door Chronology

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1844

October 22 Great Disappointment. Christ fails to return on the date predicted by William Miller. December Most Millerites have returned to their previous churches. Some continue to insist the movement was correct. They teach:

• Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on Oct. 22, 1844.
• Jesus fulfilled the parable of the 10 virgins where the Bridegroom "enters in" with the five ready virgins.
• The door of salvation has been "shut" to those who were not part of the 1844 Millerite movement.
• They are now in a "testing time" and Jesus will come within one year.

December 11 William Miller writes, "We have done our work in warning sinners and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has shut the door; we can only stir up one another to be patient" (Advent Herald, Dec. 11, 1844). 1845

Jan. - Dec. Ellen White begins having visions regarding the "shut door." One who witnessed her visions in his home, John Megquier, wrote: "We well know the course of Ellen G. White, the visionist, while in the state of Maine. About the first visions she had were at my house in Poland. She said that God had told her in vision that the door of mercy had closed, and there was no more chance for the world." (The True Sabbath, by Miles Grant, p. 70) Mrs. L.S. Burdick was well acquainted with Mrs. White. She wrote: "I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. . . Ellen was having what was called visions: said that God had shown her in vision that Jesus Christ arose and on the tenth day of the seventh month, 1844, shut the door of mercy; had left forever the mediatorial throne; the whole world was doomed and lost; and there never could be another sinner saved." (The True Sabbath, p. 72).
February 7 O.R.L. Crosier publishes his understanding of Christ entering the Most Holy Place on Oct. 22, 1844, in the Day Star. Mrs. White later endorses this publication as "true light." February 19 William Miller expresses his belief that no sinners have been converted on the earth during the last five months: "I have not seen a genuine conversion since [Oct. 22, 1844]." Voice of Truth, Feb. 19,1845. 1846

April 20 Otis Nichols, a believer in Ellen White and a witness to her visions, writes to William Miller: "Her message...encouraged them to hold on to the faith, and the seventh month movement; and that our work was done for the nominal church and the world, and what remained to be done was for the household of faith." Fall Joseph Bates meets Ellen and James White. They accept Bate's teaching that the Day of Atonement would last seven years, ending in the fall of 1851. Bates later wrote out his theories: "The seven spots of blood on the Golden Altar and before the mercy seat, I fully believe, represent the duration of the judicial proceedings on the living saints in the Most Holy, all of which time they will be in their affliction, even seven years; God by his voice will deliver them, 'for it is the blood that maketh the atonement for the soul' (Lev. 17:11). Then the number seven will finish the day of atonement. (The Typical and Anti-typical Sanctuary, p. 10, 1850) 1847

April James White published "A Word to the Little Flock." In it we find:

• Ellen White has a vision showing the Advent people walking on a path toward heaven. She saw some fall of the path and she wrote of them: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected."
• James White: "From the ascension, to the shutting of the door, Oct. 1844, Jesus stood with wide-spread arms of love, and mercy; ready to receive, and plead the cause of every sinner, who would come to God by him. On the 10th day of the 7th month, 1844, he passed into the Holy of Holies, where he has since been a merciful 'high priest over the house of God.' "

1848

Jan. - Dec. Many of the Millerites give up the "shut door" teaching by the end of the year. O.R.L. Crosier, the originator of the SDA teaching on the Sanctuary tells of his experience in 1848: "I kept the seventh day nearly a year, about 1848. In 1846 I explained the idea of the sanctuary in an article in an extra number of the Day Star, Cincinnati, O. The object of that article was to support the theory that the door of mercy was shut, a theory which I, and nearly all Adventists who had adopted William Miller's views, held from 1844 to 1848. Yes, I know that Ellen G. Harmon - now Mrs. White - held that shut-door theory at that time." 1849

Joseph Bates announces the time of trouble has begun: "And now the time of trouble has began..." ("A Seal of the Living God", 1849) March 24 Mrs. White receives visions in Topsham, Maine, that confirm belief in the shut door: "God gave me two visions while there, much to the comfort and strength of the brethren and sisters. Brother Stowell was established in the shut door and all the present truth he had doubted." Manuscript Releases, Vol. 5, p. 93 August Ellen White places the "shut door" doctrine as a central teaching of the church, the message of the Testimony of Jesus: "There I was shown that the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated..." Later in the same article an angel describes the condition of sinners to her: "My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past." (Present Truth, August, 1849).
September A local pestilence is seen as a fulfillment of the end of the world. Mrs. White predicts this pestilence will become widespread: "What we have seen and heard of the pestilence, is but the beginning of what we shall see and hear. Soon the dead and dying will be all around us." (Present Truth, Sept. 1849). December David Arnold writes in the Present Truth: "Therefore, we are brought, by the force of circumstances, and the fulfillment of events, to the irresistible conclusion that, on the tenth day of the seventh month, (Jewish time,) in the autumn of 1844, Christ did close his daily, or continual ministration or mediation in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and SHUT THE DOOR, which no man can open; and opened a door, in the second apartment, or Holiest of all, which no man can shut, (see Rev.iii,7,8,) and passed within the second veil, bearing before the Father, on the breast-plate of judgment, all for whom he is now acting as intercessor." (Present Truth, Dec. 1849) 1850

February 10 The "shut door" is opened a crack to allow in those people who were Christians in 1844 but never heard Miller's message. In her letter to Brother and Sister Collins, Feb. 10, 1850, Mrs. White says "Souls are coming out upon the truth all around here. They are those who have not heard the Advent doctrine..." April Ellen White states: "The mighty shaking has commenced." (Present Truth, April, 1850) April The "shut door" is cracked open a little further to let the children of the saints enter: "As they [little children] were then [1844] in a state of innocence, they were entitled to a record upon the breastplate of judgment as much as those who had sinned and received pardon; and are, therefore subjects of the present intercession of our great high priest" (Present Truth, April, 1850). April James White writes that God's people have already left Babylon [Protestant churches]: "Babylon, the nominal church is fallen. God's people have come out of her. She is now the 'synagogue of Satan' (Rev. 3:9). 'The habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird' (Rev. 18:2)." (Present Truth, April, 1850) May James White writes: "But says the objector - 'The door of mercy will not be closed until Jesus comes.' We do not read of such a door as 'the door of mercy' in the Bible; neither do we teach that such a door was shut in 1844. God's 'mercy endureth for ever.' See Ps.cxxxvi; cvi,1; cxviii,1. He is still merciful to his saints, and ever will be; and Jesus is still their advocate and priest. But the sinner, to whom Jesus had stretched out his arms all the day long, and who had rejected the offers of salvation, was left without an advocate, when Jesus passed from the Holy Place, and shut that door in 1844." (Present Truth, May, 1850) June 27 Mrs. White has a vision of the soon return of Christ: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67). July 29 Miss Sarah B. Harmon, older sister of Mrs. White, in a letter written from Brookfield, N.Y., to Mrs. P.D. Lawrence, July 29/30, 1850, said: "I believe this is the last winter we shall see before Jesus, our great High Priest, comes out. Oh, let us live for God and sacrifice for him faithfully." August 24 Ellen White writes in a letter regarding the Present Truth magazine: "...the lines that were being published were written in the Spirit of God, and would rejoice the hearts of the trusting ones, and Satan knew it would hurt his cause because it would be seen by these testimonies that most of the Advent people once believed as we do that there was a shut door in '44. And to have the plain, clean truth come out in the paper . . . would cause many to decide for the truth and to take a firm and unyielding stand for God and His truth" (Ms 7, 1850) August The "shut door" was opened another crack to let in Herman Churchill, a man who was unconverted in 1844. According to General Conference president George Butler, the Adventists were "quite surprised" a non-believer would manifest interest in their message! September Mrs. White announces time is almost finished: "Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more. . . I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the Holy Place was nearly finished, and that time can not last but a little longer." (Early Writings, p. 58, ed. 1907) December Sister White says that to oppose the shut door is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: "Then I saw the Laodiceans [first-day Adventists].... Dare they admit that the door is shut? The sin against the Holy Ghost was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done. They said the shut door was of the devil and now admit it is against their own lives. They shall die the death." (Ms 11, 1850, pp. 3, 4) 1851

June 21 Mrs. White's vision at Camden, NY: "Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause us to pray for the wicked world, whom God has rejected. When he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefited and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly." August 19 Joseph Bates wrote: "We understand that he [Christ] was a Mediator for all the world, ministering in the Holy Place (Heb. 9:26), in the Tabernacle called the Sanctuary, from the day of Pentecost (A.D. 31) until his appointed time, the end of the twenty-three hundred days, or years - the fall of 1844. At this point of time, then, the door was shut against the Sardis church [the Protestant church] and the wicked world." Review and Herald, Aug. 19, 1851 August James and Ellen White publish "Experience and Views", a little pamphlet of 64 pages. No reference is made in this to "A Word to the Little Flock," nor to Present Truth, although all but seven introductory pages of "Experience and Views" is copied word for word from these two publications. All references to the "shut door" were omitted from the publication. 1853

James White admits the shut door has opened slightly: "While the great work of saving men closed with the 2300 days, a few are now coming to Christ..." Review and Herald, No. 3, p. 176



http://www.ellenwhite.org/chrono.htm

i think this is the correct time line for the shut door

 

[Adventist Dissident]

and the final piece, what say ye to this





Quote:
Originally Posted by icedragon101
After 1851 The Shut Door Doctrine Disappears

The shut door teaching--which Mrs. White claimed was a part of the Testimony of Jesus--was reinterpreted by the Whites to mean that only those who rejected the 1844 message had the door of probation shut on them. After 1851 the shut door teaching--one of the central doctrines of the early Adventists--disappeared quickly from their writings. Nearly all new Adventists never heard of it nor knew that their prophet had seen it in vision.


http://www.ellenwhite.org/chrono.htm

 

[reddogs]

You know, this is great, if you try to go over these issues in church, from somewhere one of the little old ladies will appear and tell you to leave Mrs White alone. But we must remember to be reverent with everything divine, and 'thread' softly and remember what happened to the boys that taunted one of Gods prophets......


2 Kings 2:1-25


1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
17And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
18And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?
19And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren.
20And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him.
21And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.
22So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

hi

 

[Sophia7]

You know, this is great, if you try to go over these issues in church, from somewhere one of the little old ladies will appear and tell you to leave Mrs White alone. But we must remember to be reverent with everything divine, and 'thread' softly and remember what happened to the boys that taunted one of Gods prophets......

And if she wasn't a true prophet? Then your warning is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with testing a prophet; the Bible tells us to do that. I used to accept Ellen White as a prophet, but I'm not sure that I can anymore. I've read both sides of these issues, and I find the traditional Adventist side lacking. I didn't want to see it this way when I started studying, but I couldn't just ignore the evidence. Please address the real issues and stop writing off everyone who doesn't accept EGW unquestioningly as lost. EGW is not divine, and if her prophetic status is strong enough to hold up, it will do so even under examination.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You know, this is great, if you try to go over these issues in church, from somewhere one of the little old ladies will appear and tell you to leave Mrs White alone. But we must remember to be reverent with everything divine, and 'thread' softly and remember what happened to the boys that taunted one of Gods prophets......


2 Kings 2:1-25


1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
17And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
18And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?
19And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren.
20And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him.
21And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.
22So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

how does post #85 contribute to the topic? We are discussing the view of the "shut door". We all believe in Elijah and Elisha. We are discussing the chronology and validity of the shut door. what say ye to that information?

 

[OntheDL]

Your timeline is skewed to fit the post-shut-door Adventist perspective. James himself (see quote from him above) said that his wife's first vision was given after she had abandoned the shut door and that the vision led her to return to it. She held to the shut-door theory from the time of her first vision until sometime around 1851, and God did not correct her during all that time, while she was not laboring for the salvation of souls. The later quotes from her deny that she ever held that view, but her earlier words prove otherwise.

You have also ignored the fact that her accompanying angel in the vision quoted from above showed her that the time for sinners to repent was past. Her view at the time was not that this was a future close of probation but rather one that had already happened in 1844. The vision was wrong.

I'll look up the quotes on the law in Galatians.

It's funny how two people reading the same quote can come to completely different understand.

Originally Posted by James White
"When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, [where her parents then resided] had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God" A Word to the Little Flock, 1847, p.22.

The charge is not just about the shut door but the entire 1844 message and thus it questions the very legitimacy of Adventism.

The 7th month experience refers to the entire 1844 message. James White here was not writing about them return to the Millerites' shut door message, but returning to the 1844 message which God corrected their initial errors withe new light.

The years 1844 to 1851 were a time of gradual change of understanding of the true shut door message.

"It is very clear from the context of his many references to the shut door that the term in 1851 and 1852 had quite a different connotation from what it did in 1844, 1845, 1846. In the intervening years it had undergone a gradual but important change in significance.

Because the development of an understanding of the matter was gradual, statements made in retrospect put the shut door in an easily grasped setting. A knowledge of the experience of the pioneers through the years 1844 to 1851 places the question in its true light." ---1BIO 256.

"I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents." ---1BIO 260

 

[Adventist Dissident]

DL thank for that info,

could you rspond to post 83, 84 and address specific instances of misundersandting? Thank-you very much.

 

[reddogs]

But if she is of God, then you are in need of careful consideration of how you reach your understanding, as some attack and dont see when they are fighting against God and/or his Holy Spirit.

Red
(guilty of all these flaws, so Red can barely speak)

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It's funny how two people reading the same quote can come to completely different understand.



The charge is not just about the shut door but the entire 1844 message and thus it questions the very legitimacy of Adventism.

I would have to disagree with you on this one. Remember your SDA History. It was only after people studied the scripture that EGW went into vision to verify, Only AFTER. EGW did not make one doctrinal contributation, NOt the sabbath, state of the dead, sanctuary, Second coming, not salvation. All were found by others. What is at stake is the legitimacy of EGW Prophetic Gifting and her claim to be a messenger of the Lord. that is for sure and should be Tested throughly.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

But if she is of God, then you are in need of careful consideration of how you reach your understanding, as some attack and dont see when they are fighting against God and/or his Holy Spirit.

Red
(guilty of all these flaws, so Red can barely speak)

Moses had to prove him self and so did Christ. Why not EGW?

 

[OntheDL]

I would have to disagree with you on this one. Remember the SDA History. It was only after people studied the scripture that EGW went into vision to verify, Only AFTER. EGW did not make one doctrinal contributation, NOt the sabbath, state of the dead, sanctuary, Second coming, not salvation. All were found by others. What is at stake is the legitimacy of EGW Prophetic Gifting and her claim to be a messenger of the Lord. that is for sure and should be Tested throughly.

I think even Sophia will disagree with you. The 1844 message is about the legitimacy of SDA denomination.

Actually, God gave light to the collective Adventist pioneers. But He used EGW particularly to deliver the message. All others were subject to correction to the light the was given to her. On this, I think D Canright would disagree with you. And it contradicts some of your earlier statements.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I think even Sophia will disagree with you. The 1844 message is about the legitimacy of SDA denomination.

Actually, God gave light to the collective Adventist pioneers. But He used EGW particularly to deliver the message. All others were subject to correction to the light the was given to her. On this, I think D Canright would disagree with you. And it contradicts some of your earlier statements.

could you tell me which doctrince EGW came up with? and where I contradicted my self earlier?
Miller had the second coming and the basic prophtic structure
joseph bates the sabbath
hiram edson and ORL croiser - the sanctruary doctrine
The state of the dead I do not know where it came from, but I do know that it was held by others as well. So again which one did EGW come up with, which one in particular? The basic construct of the SDA doctrine is sound, without EGW? What you are saying sounds like the SDA chruch is dependant on EGW not Jesus for it's existance.

 

[Sophia7]

Here are a few EGW quotes on the law in Galatians. (I quoted the first two previously.) In the first quote, she says that Galatians refers to the moral law as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, in the second to both the moral and ceremonial laws. In the third and fourth, she takes the view of the ceremonial law. I am also including some of her statements on Waggoner. There was some dispute over her views in relation to Jones and Waggoner and the 1888 controversy. The quotes also show that she couldn’t even remember what she had written to E.J. Waggoner’s father previously when she had disagreed with his views on the law in Galatians. Overall, I see this as showing that she didn't have as dogmatic a view that Galatians 3 referred to the ceremonial law as many Adventists do today. She at times seemed to support different viewpoints and at times even said that it was an unimportant issue.

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5}

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded
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in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world.

[1896]

As the sinner looks into the great moral looking-glass, he sees his defects of character. He sees himself just as he is, spotted, defiled, and condemned. But he knows that the law cannot in any way remove the guilt or pardon the transgressor. He must go farther than this. The law is but the schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. He must look to his sin-bearing Saviour. And as Christ is revealed to him upon the cross of Calvary, dying beneath the weight of the sins of the whole world, the Holy Spirit shows him the attitude of God to all who repent of their transgressions. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."(Review and Herald, April 5, 1898)

I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}

[1900]

While tarrying at Corinth, Paul had cause for serious apprehension concerning some of the churches already established. Through the influence of false teachers who had arisen among the believers in Jerusalem, division, heresy, and sensualism were rapidly gaining ground among the believers in Galatia. These false teachers were mingling Jewish traditions with the truths of the gospel. Ignoring the decision of the general council at Jerusalem, they urged upon the Gentile converts the observance of the ceremonial law. {AA 383.1}

[1911]

In the Galatian churches, open, unmasked error was supplanting the faith of the gospel. Christ, the true foundation, was virtually renounced for the obsolete ceremonies of Judaism. The apostle saw that if these churches were saved from the dangerous influences which threatened them, the most decisive measures must be taken, the sharpest warnings given, to bring them to a sense of their true condition. {LP 190.1}

[1883]

At this meeting the subject of the law in Galatians was brought before the ministers. This subject had been brought into the conference three years before. . . . {3SM 167.4}

We know that if all would come to the Scriptures with hearts subdued and controlled by the influence of the Spirit of God, there would be brought to the examination of the Scriptures a calm mind, free from prejudice and pride of opinion. The light from the Lord would shine upon His Word and the truth would be revealed. But there should be prayerful, painstaking effort and much patience, to answer the prayer of Christ
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that His disciples may be one as He is one with the Father. The earnest, sincere prayer will be heard and the Lord will answer. The Holy Spirit will quicken the mental faculties and there will be a seeing eye to eye. "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple" (Ps. 119:130). {3SM 167.5}

Justification and Christ's Righteousness Presented.--Elder E. J. Waggoner had the privilege granted him of speaking plainly and presenting his views upon justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ in relation to the law. This was no new light, but it was old light placed where it should be in the third angel's message. . . . What is the burden of that message? John sees a people. He says, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 14:12). This people John beholds just before he sees the Son of man "having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle" (verse 14). {3SM 168.1}

The faith of Jesus has been overlooked and treated in an indifferent, careless manner. It has not occupied the prominent position in which it was revealed to John. Faith in Christ as the sinner's only hope has been largely left out, not only of the discourses given but of the religious experience of very many who claim to believe the third angel's message. {3SM 168.2}

The "Added Law."--I have something to say to you that I should withhold no longer. I have been looking in vain as yet to get an article that was written nearly twenty years ago . . . in reference to the "added law." I read this to Elder [J. H.] Waggoner. I stated then to him that I had been shown his position in regard to the law was incorrect, and from the statements I made to him he has been silent upon the subject for many years. . . . {9MR 215.1}

I have not read Elder [G.I.] Butler's pamphlet or any articles written by any of our writers and do not mean to. But I did see years ago that Elder [J.H.] Waggoner's views were not correct, and read to him matter which I had written. The matter does not lie clear and distinct in my mind yet. I cannot grasp the matter, and for this reason I am fully convinced that presenting it has been not only untimely, but deleterious.--Letter 37, 1887, pp. 1,2. (To E. J. Waggoner and A. T. Jones, February 18, 1887.) {9MR 215.2}

Cautions Regarding Differences of Opinion on the Law in Galatians.-- I have sent copies of letters written to Brethren Waggoner and Jones to Elder Butler in reference to introducing and keeping in the front and making prominent subjects on which there are differences of opinion. I sent these not that you should make them weapons to use against the brethren mentioned, but that the very same cautions and carefulness be exercised by you to preserve harmony as you would have these brethren exercise.
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I am troubled; for the life of me I cannot remember that which I have been shown in reference to the two laws. I cannot remember what the caution and warning referred to were that were given to Elder Waggoner. It may be it was a caution not to make his ideas prominent at that time, for there was great danger of disunion. . . . {9MR 216.1}

I have had some impressive dreams that have led me to feel that you are not altogether in the light. Elder Canright was presenting his ideas upon the law, and such a mixed up concern I never heard. Neither of you seemed to see or understand where his arguments would lead. . . . {9MR 216.2}

I advised that his [D.M. Canright's] books be suppressed, especially the one on the law, the very subject he was conversing with you in regard to. If that work is what I believe it to be, I would burn every copy in the fire before one should be given out to our people.--Letter 13, 1887, pp. 1-3. (To G. I. Butler and Uriah Smith, April 5, 1887.) {9MR 216.3}

Ellen White's Position on the Law in Galatians Unchanged.--I have not changed my views in reference to the law in Galatians, but I hope that I shall never be left to entertain the spirit that was brought into the General Conference. I have not the least hesitancy in saying it was not the Spirit of God. If every idea we have entertained in doctrines is truth, will not the truth bear to be investigated? Will it totter and fall if criticized? If so, let it fall, the sooner the better. The spirit that would close the door to investigation of points of truth in a Christlike manner is not the Spirit from above. . . .

A. T. Jones and Dr. Waggoner hold views upon some doctrinal points, which all admit are not vital questions, different from those which some of the leading ones of our people have held. But it is a vital question whether we are Christians, whether we have a Christian spirit, and are true, open, and frank with one another. . . . {9MR 217.1}

My cry has been, Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible, so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. The Scriptures teach that we should give a reason of the hope that is within us with meekness and fear. . . . {9MR 217.2}

I have not [now?] told you that my views are not changed in regard to the law in Galatians. [THE FIRST "NOT" IN THIS SENTENCE MAKES THE STATEMENT CONTRADICT THE FIRST SENTENCE IN THIS RELEASE. IT WOULD APPEAR THEREFORE THAT THE "NOT" IN THE SENTENCE IN QUESTION IS A MISTYPE FOR "NOW," OR IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE WORD SLIPPED INTO THE TEXT INADVERTENTLY THROUGH A TYPISTS' ERROR.] But if we have had the truth upon this subject, our brethren have failed to be sanctified through it; the fruits are not after Christ's order, but bitter as gall.--Letter 7, 1888, pp. 1-4. (To W. M. Healey, December 9, 1888.) {9MR 217.3}

Neither Side Has All the Light on the Law in Galatians.--You speak of the affliction that came upon you because of the "way this matter [the question of the law in Galatians] has been pushed and urged by responsible men in the cause, and by your seeming attitude which has brought me to my present condition more than any other one thing." I have no knowledge of taking any position in
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this matter. I had not with me the light God had given me on this subject, and which had been written, and I dared not make any rash statement in relation to it till I could see what I had written upon it. My attitude therefore could not be helped. I had not read Dr. Waggoner's articles in the Signs, and I did not know what his views were. . . . {9MR 217.4}

He [Ellen White's angelic guide] stretched out his arms toward Dr. Waggoner and to you, Elder Butler, and said in substance as follows: "Neither have all the light upon the law, neither position is perfect. 'Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart' (Psalm 97:11). There are hundreds that know not why they believe the doctrines they do."--Letter 21, 1888, pp. 6,7. (To G. I. Butler, October 14, 1888.) {9MR 218.1}

Great Relief of Many Minds.--Since I made the statement last Sabbath that the view of the covenants as it had been taught by Brother Waggoner was truth, it seems that great relief has come to many minds.-- Letter 30, 1890, p. 2. (To Willie and Mary White, March 10, 1890.) {9MR 224.2}

Galatians Matter Is of Minor Consequence.--Sunday morning, although weary and almost discouraged, I ventured into the meeting. I said nothing until the meeting was about to close, and then I made some very close
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remarks. I kept before them what they had done to make of none effect that which the Lord was trying to do and why. The law in Galatians was their only plea. {9MR 224.3}

"Why," I asked, "is your interpretation of the law in Galatians more dear to you, and you more zealous to maintain your ideas on this point, than to acknowledge the workings of the Spirit of God? You have been weighing every precious heaven-sent testimony by your own scales as you interpreted the law in Galatians. Nothing could come to you in regard to the truth and the power of God unless it should bear your imprint, the precious ideas you had idolized on the law of Galatians. {9MR 225.1}

"These testimonies of the Spirit of God, the fruits of the Spirit of God, have no weight unless they are stamped with your ideas of the law in Galatians. I am afraid of you and I am afraid of your interpretation of any Scripture which has revealed itself in such an unChristlike spirit as you have manifested and has cost me so much unnecessary labor. If you are such very cautious men and so very critical lest you shall receive something not in accordance with the Scriptures, I want your minds to look on these things in the true light. Let your caution be exercised in the line of fear lest you are committing the sin against the Holy Ghost. [See Matthew 12:32.] Have your critical minds taken this view of the subject? I say if your views on the law in Galatians, and the fruits, are of the character I have seen in Minneapolis and ever since up to this time, my prayer is that I may be as far from your understanding and interpretation of the Scriptures as it is possible for me to be. I am afraid of any application of Scripture that needs such a spirit and bears such fruit as you have manifested. One thing is certain, I shall never come into harmony with such a spirit as long as God gives me my reason.
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"You have not commended your doctrine, in some things, to my mind and to other minds. You could not have given a better refutation of your own theories than you have done. {9MR 226.1}

"Now brethren, I have nothing to say, no burden in regard to the law in Galatians. This matter looks to me of minor consequence in comparison with the spirit you have brought into your faith. It is exactly of the same piece that was manifested by the Jews in reference to the work and mission of Jesus Christ. The most convincing testimony that we can bear to others that we have the truth is the spirit which attends the advocacy of that truth. If it sanctifies the heart of the receiver, if it makes him gentle, kind, forbearing, true and Christlike, then he will give some evidence of the fact that he has the genuine truth. But if he acts as did the Jews when their opinions and ideas were crossed, then we certainly cannot receive such testimony, for it does not produce the fruits of righteousness." [See Philippians 1:11]--Letter 83, 1890, pp. 5-6. (To Willie and Mary White, March 13, 1890.) {9MR 226.2}

Also, see this article on E.J. Waggoner and 1888. Here is an excerpt:

In order to understand the significance of Waggoner's use of Luther, we need to reflect on the law in Reformation history. Melanchthon was the first Reformation theologian to define what became known as the three uses of the law:

1. In the social use the knowledge of the law acts as a restraint on sin and for the promotion of right doing in society.

2. In the pedagogic use the law brings man under the conviction of sin, makes him conscious of his inability to meet the demands of the law, works wrath and acts as a tutor to bring him to Christ.

3. In the didactic or normative use, also called the tertius usus legis or third use of the law, the law becomes a rule of life for the believer after he is justified. It reminds him of his duty and leads him in the way of life and salvation.

In teaching the gospel and justification unto life eternal, the law is used as the "schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24) to drive us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But it is the third use of the law that teaches the true way of sanctification.

The church before the Reformation was much like the Adventist community before 1888. All the emphasis was placed on the third use of the law. Men tried to obtain life by keeping the law—with God's help of course! They thought they could finally stand in the judgment if they kept the law well enough or if Christ kept it in them— really the same in principle. But no one could be sure of salvation or acceptance in the final judgment, for no one could be sure he was keeping the law to the full satisfaction of divine justice.

Luther's great emphasis was the second use of the law, especially in his Commentary on Galatians. (24) With powerful assaults on the legalism of the church, Luther showed it was vain to expect life from the law "before grace or after grace." The law works wrath (Rom. 4:15). Its office for fallen man is not to give life but to terrify, to kill and to hammer all human righteousness into powder. Luther's emphasis on this use of the law was so great that his lectures on Galatians seem to have a negative attitude to the law. In the same way, the careless reader might also think Paul speaks against the law in passages like Romans 7 and Galatians 3.

In Adventism nearly all the emphasis was placed on the third use of the law. This is not surprising since the Adventist mission was to urge obedience to all the Ten Commandments. Many apparently took considerable satisfaction in the thought that they alone were God's favored "remnant" because they kept all God's commandments. Even men like Smith, Butler and, yes, Waggoner, rested in the hope that successful lawkeeping would enable men to finally stand in judgment and win the verdict of eternal life. Even what Mrs. White had said before 1888 was insufficient to expose this vain Laodicean hope. (25)

Waggoner came to this law-loving, law-boasting community like a Martin Luther. He unveiled the fierce face of the law in its terrible greatness, its wrath against imperfection and its righteousness that can only condemn and never justify the sinner. Adventists had evaded the force of Galatians 3 by saying Paul was only discussing the ritual law. They could not bear the fierce face of the moral law, which tore their Laodicean righteousness to shreds. To Smith and Butler it seemed that Waggoner's position on the law in Galatians would pull down the pillars of the Advent faith and weaken its stand on the Ten Commandments. Before leaving for Minneapolis Waggoner fired Martin Luther's words on the use of the law at his would-be opposition. . . . (26)

Waggoner's discovery that the moral law was the particular issue in Romans and Galatians 3 was part of the heritage of the Protestant Reformation. There is no evidence, however, that he ever fully recovered that heritage. What might have been the blessing if his brethren had heartily joined him in a corporate recovery of the gospel—a recovery far exceeding the light of the Reformation! But this was not to be. Waggoner was part of his community. He could not transcend its limitations. Did he try to press on alone, only to stumble and fall?

We have shown why we believe that Waggoner's pre-1888 material best represents his mind at the conference. All the available evidence confirms this. The great issue at the conference was the law in Galatians. It involved Waggoner's recovery of the Reformation heritage on the second use of the law. The light was unwelcome.

Wieland's suggestion that the central issue at Minneapolis was justification by faith and that the argument on the law in Galatians was only a distraction is another myth. (27) Just as Luther's use of law was an integral part of his message on justification, so the use of the law was an essential part of Waggoner's message on justification. Luther's message was law and gospel. And from 1884 to 1888 law and gospel was Waggoner's constant theme.

Ellen G. White understood that Waggoner's light at Minneapolis was light on the relation of the law to the gospel. She commented that this light was to lighten the earth with the glory of God (Rev. 18:1). (28) Mrs. White was impressed with Waggoner's message on the law and the gospel when she first heard him at Minneapolis. She responded with her whole being (29) — even though there were some points on which she thought Waggoner may have been wrong. (30) Significantly, after 1888 she made the second use of the law more prominent. (31)

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Here are a few EGW quotes on the law in Galatians. (I quoted the first two previously.) In the first quote, she says that Galatians refers to the moral law as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, in the second to both the moral and ceremonial laws. In the third and fourth, she takes the view of the ceremonial law. I am also including some of her statements on Waggoner. There was some dispute over her views in relation to Jones and Waggoner and the 1888 controversy. The quotes also show that she couldn’t even remember what she had written to E.J. Waggoner’s father previously when she had disagreed with his views on the law in Galatians. Overall, I see this as showing that she didn't have as dogmatic a view that Galatians 3 referred to the ceremonial law as many Adventists do today. She at times seemed to support different viewpoints and at times even said that it was an unimportant issue.

Also, see this article on E.J. Waggoner and 1888. Here is an excerpt:

Good quote sophia7

I recently read "WW Prescott: the forgotten giant of Adventism 2nd generation" , by gilbert valintine. He says on page 82-83 "that Uriah smith had a hard time accepting the message not so much because of the message, but because he thought he remembered EGW opposing it in a vision in 1856, when Waggoners father brought it up. " the main problem with it was that EGW said one thing in 1856 and another in 1888. That is a huge problem. They had a hard time because of her. not because of the message. Take EGW out of this situation and there is no 1888 problem. This is the issue that finally drove DM canwright out of the Chruch. He knew about this and said I quit.

 

[reddogs]

Sophia, when I was young, the Hara Krishna devotees were everywhere you went, with their singing and robes, and there was all kinds of articles of the dangers of their religion taking over Protestant America. Now, I haven't seen one since I went riding with my girlfriend in my '71 Mustang Mach I with the air foil wing on the back and 8 track tape AM/FM radio, what happened to them, did they take over, I dont think so..........If she is not of God, it will be set aside and Gods truth will endure, but if she does have the message from the Holy Spirit, then nothing you do, say, give money to, make laws against will stop the truth she brings.......

But once we have understanding we must choose, as only the evil influence gains if we hold back from the Holy Spirit and its work....

"....Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the testimony of others, but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them until they find their position and become established for or against. If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right (Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 328)...."

Your brother in Christ
Red

 

[djconklin]

Moses had to prove him self and so did Christ. Why not EGW?

How did Moses prove himself? How did Christ prove himself? What did they have to prove?

 

[OntheDL]

Here are a few EGW quotes on the law in Galatians. (I quoted the first two previously.) In the first quote, she says that Galatians refers to the moral law as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, in the second to both the moral and ceremonial laws. In the third and fourth, she takes the view of the ceremonial law. I am also including some of her statements on Waggoner. There was some dispute over her views in relation to Jones and Waggoner and the 1888 controversy. The quotes also show that she couldn’t even remember what she had written to E.J. Waggoner’s father previously when she had disagreed with his views on the law in Galatians. Overall, I see this as showing that she didn't have as dogmatic a view that Galatians 3 referred to the ceremonial law as many Adventists do today. She at times seemed to support different viewpoints and at times even said that it was an unimportant issue.

also, see this article on E.J. Waggoner and 1888. Here is an excerpt:

The first quote was alluding to the moral code of the whole law (of Moses) that leads to Jesus.

The second quote was refering to the whole law of Moses(moral code of the 10 commandments and the ceremonial).

The third and thereafter were pointing out the point of contention within the early christian church: if they should keep the ceremonial laws.

There is no contraditions if you understand the law and you are not trying to make them contraditions.