Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

FireDragon76 · Sep 15, 2018

People have used the excuse of not making a weaker brother to stumble, to never using wine at all.

The easier thing to do is for an alcoholic to simply not receive the cup, if the provision for having non-alcoholic, suitable alternatives is not available (and no, orange squash does not cut it). Receiving communion under one kind is perfectly valid, due to the doctrine of concomittance, which is recognized by both Catholics and Lutherans.

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

The Lord's Supper was in fact a "Passover" meal. So the bread was not our bread - it was unleavened bread. So then no yeast. Passover was considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread -where all leaven had first been removed from the house.

Hence "the cracker".

The word translated wine is in fact more accurately "grape beverage" and depending on the context could be fermented or not. so then you will find "new wine" to specifically focus on fresh juice and other times "wine" for when they want you to get the detail from the context as to whether it had wine yeast or not.

Albion · Sep 15, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Why grape juice? For the simple purpose of not tempting a weaker brother or sister in the faith. That's all.

It would be fascinating to know how many people became alcoholics because of receiving communion several times a month in some church. Possibly it is something that is only in the imagination of people who have never communed in a church that uses wine.

Athanasius377 · Sep 15, 2018

If the concern is to avoid inflaming the passions of a brother that struggles with alcohol there is non-alcoholic wine that our church will offer to those who request it. I agree with the other posts regarding the invention and use of grape juice. If you try to make grape juice you will end up with wine every time due to naturally occurring yeast on the outside skin of the grape. It wasn't until the 19th century when a Dentist by the name of Welch developed a way to pasteurize grape juice to halt the fermentation process.

One more point to add, the alcohol content of sacramental wine that a typical RC parish (and others) will have a much higher alcohol content (upwards of 18%-20%?) than the wine you can buy off the shelf. In fact one needs a special license to buy it and it must be delivered to a church. The idea is that it can kill the bacteria that may be present on the common cup even after being cut with water.

PloverWing · Sep 15, 2018

I agree with Dave-W here on the issue of wine and juice: The Southern Baptist community I grew up in regarded consumption of alcohol as a sin, so serving alcohol in church would be morally wrong.

FatalHeart · Sep 15, 2018

I'll probably get in trouble for joking about this, but your title seems racist.

AnnaDeborah · Sep 15, 2018

Albion said:
It would be fascinating to know how many people became alcoholics because of receiving communion several times a month in some church. Possibly it is something that is only in the imagination of people who have never communed in a church that uses wine.

I'm not aware of anyone who has claimed to have become alcoholic through taking communion. The issue is with those who are already alcoholics being caused to 'fall off the wagon' by having alcoholic wine at communion.

It's interesting to see how many people are upset at the idea of using anything but wine at communion. Since the style of the communion and the bread used today are both very different from the original last supper, I wonder why people are so adamant about the wine?

FireDragon76 · Sep 15, 2018

Albion said:
It would be fascinating to know how many people became alcoholics because of receiving communion several times a month in some church. Possibly it is something that is only in the imagination of people who have never communed in a church that uses wine.

My S.O. used to do deal with a serious drinking problem (she actually quit drinking without going through AA) and she receives communion via intinction. It's never been a problem for her when the little unleavened wafers are used to intinct as they don't hold much wine.

PloverWing said:
I agree with Dave-W here on the issue of wine and juice: The Southern Baptist community I grew up in regarded consumption of alcohol as a sin, so serving alcohol in church would be morally wrong.

I guess Jesus was in the wrong, then.

Perhaps somebody is ignorant of why grapes become wine in the first place. As Luther said, "Man makes beer, but God makes wine"

Albion · Sep 15, 2018

AnnaDeborah said:
I'm not aware of anyone who has claimed to have become alcoholic through taking communion. The issue is with those who are already alcoholics being caused to 'fall off the wagon' by having alcoholic wine at communion.

Except that, as we have already discussed, the churches have ways of handling that.

It's interesting to see how many people are upset at the idea of using anything but wine at communion. Since the style of the communion and the bread used today are both very different from the original last supper, I wonder why people are so adamant about the wine?

Because it is almost certain that wine was used at the Last Supper. Grape juice, as we know it, was not even in existence then. That fact has also been mentioned on this thread.

Incidentally, people who support the use of juice rather than wine have themselves posted that the reason for it was/is a practical one, not because they think it is more authentic or Scripturally-correct.

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 15, 2018

Albion said:
It would be fascinating to know how many people became alcoholics because of receiving communion several times a month in some church. Possibly it is something that is only in the imagination of people who have never communed in a church that uses wine.

I've never heard of such a thing. As for it being something that is only in the imagination of people who have never been in a church that uses wine, I'm not so sure it's in their imagination, either. You might have encountered a claim like that, but I never have, and I've never attended a church that didn't use only grape juice.

FireDragon76 said:
The easier thing to do is for an alcoholic to simply not receive the cup, if the provision for having non-alcoholic, suitable alternatives is not available

On the matter of alcoholics trying to stay sober, though, I'm not convinced that non-alcoholic wine is good enough. I suspect that the taste of wine, apart from any intoxicating effect, would have its effect on a sober alcoholic by virtue of association. I don't think alcoholics would fall off of the wagon because a little sip of alcohol at communion made them intoxicated. Tastes and smells have an effect in the brain of strongly triggering memories, and I would expect the taste of the wine, not the alcohol, to have that effect.

Frankly, I'm glad that grape juice has always been available as an option, for me. I don't think I could drink wine, alcoholic or not. I'd sooner skip communion for life.

DamianWarS · Sep 15, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

Crackers are unleavened bread and if you have ever seen Matzo bread (at least modern manufactured ones), which is what Jews use in passover, it looks like a giant cracker. Crackers even retain the little holes like Matzo bread which have been used to show how Christ has been pierced for our transgressions and is among other Passover Seder elements that point to Christ. So does your "bread" have little holes in it? maybe you should ask why it doesn't look like Matzo bread.

DamianWarS · Sep 15, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

I've seen coke and cookies. For Evangelicals its a symbol so the exact representation is somewhat arbitrary to the symbol itself as it is an abstract and does not need to be a concrete; hand gestures may be just as complete.

Albion · Sep 15, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I've never heard of such a thing. As for it being something that is only in the imagination of people who have never been in a church that uses wine, I'm not so sure it's in their imagination, either. You might have encountered a claim like that, but I never have, and I've never attended a church that didn't use only grape juice.

I felt that it was inherent in some of what I was reading here earlier. The reason I say that is because we have already referred to wine-using churches handling the problem of communing people with certain special needs, alcoholism being one of them. Therefore, that is not an issue.

This would leave only the related but different concern of what to do about people who might become alcoholics by communing but were not alcoholics before. And yes, I have heard people raise the issue before.

Mountainmike · Sep 15, 2018

Albion said:
I wonder what church would do that. Every one that I know of would (or does) have some way of accommodating such communicants.

It is a problem both ways.
Those with coeliac problems cannot take wafer

The historic catholic stance:

Our Lord is entirely present in either kind:body, blood , soul and divinity.
So only one kind needed to accept our Lord in totality.

To combat a deemed heresy that this was not so, the eucharist was consecrated under both kinds but given only under one kind to laity for centuries. ( which was a decision Reversed a number of times)

Post Vatican 2 bishops can decide, one or both kinds.
So those with a problem can have a dispensation either way.

It has always seemed an oddity to me that those who shout " only scripture" the loudest, take the most liberties with it! Grape juice is not wine, so clearly overrules our Lords decision!

PloverWing · Sep 15, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
I guess Jesus was in the wrong, then.

Perhaps somebody is ignorant of why grapes become wine in the first place. As Luther said, "Man makes beer, but God makes wine"

Various kinds of theological reasoning are used. Sometimes it's argued that the positive references to wine in the Bible are speaking of unfermented grape juice. Sometimes it's argued that Jesus and the apostles drank wine because there wasn't much choice (natural fermentation, as you mention), but we shouldn't drink wine, because we have a choice now, due to modern technology.

I'm not defending the position; you'll note that I'm Episcopalian. I'm just the reporter. Many Baptists and Methodists here in the US have deep convictions about the immorality of all alcohol use, and they adjust their church rituals accordingly. I still feel just a little uneasy when I drink a glass of wine, like the ghost of my Baptist mother is looking over my shoulder.

JackRT · Sep 15, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
As Luther said, "Man makes beer, but God makes wine"

Or as Benjamin Franklin said, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

ViaCrucis · Sep 15, 2018

For what it's worth, what was used at the Last Supper probably wasn't the hard cracker like matzah that you can buy in the kosher section of your local supermarket, that is specifically the sort of matzah popular among the Ashkenazi. Other forms of matzah exist, such as among the Sephardi and Mizrahi communities.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Sep 15, 2018

Since being Lutheran every church I've been part of has offered both wine and grape juice, the latter as an option for those who for whatever reason can't have alcohol. And I don't think we should begrudge this; neither those who have celiac disease needing a gluten-free alternative.

Where I draw the line is when we start getting into doritos and pepsi territory. Unless you're on a deserted island and it's a life or death situation, use fruit of the vine and bread. This is the sacred flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, not an afternoon snack.

-CryptoLutheran

Not David · Sep 15, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
Since being Lutheran every church I've been part of has offered both wine and grape juice, the latter as an option for those who for whatever reason can't have alcohol. And I don't think we should begrudge this; neither those who have celiac disease needing a gluten-free alternative.

Where I draw the line is when we start getting into doritos and pepsi territory. Unless you're on a deserted island and it's a life or death situation, use fruit of the vine and bread. This is the sacred flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, not an afternoon snack.

-CryptoLutheran

The problem is that Evangelicals don't believe that it the Blood and Flesh of Christ.

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 15, 2018

Mountainmike said:
It has always seemed an oddity to me that those who shout " only scripture" the loudest, take the most liberties with it! Grape juice is not wine, so clearly overrules our Lords decision!

One can follow the letter of the law while missing the spirit of the law. One can become so obsessed with the mechanics as to miss the purpose. God is not so limited that he must physically transform the materials in order to work its purpose in us. He is not so devoid of power as to be able to transform only one manner of substance and not another.

I regard wine as the material of our Lord's choice for no reason beyond the fact that it has a color somewhat reminiscent of blood, and I regard it as obviously a symbol. I will take my juice fresh, and you will take yours spoiled, and if that's a problem for you, then you can mock me from the sidelines until you grow hoarse. I don't care. You must understand that I would not be inclined to take criticism of the freshness of my juice from someone who deliberately spoils his own before drinking it.

David Cabrera said:
The problem is that Evangelicals don't believe that it the Blood and Flesh of Christ.

The problem is that the traditional churches have turned a symbol into something that, being not God is regarded as God all the same. If you take a common physical object and call it God, and treat it and think of it as God (and not just as a symbol), then it had better actually be God, or else it must be an idol. I hope, for your sake, that you are right, and that you are not an idolater who worships a cup of wine and cracker that tastes and smells like a cup of wine and cracker and upsets the stomach of people with Celiac disease (proving that it is, in fact, a cracker).

If I continue to think of it as a symbol, then I highly doubt that my life will be adversely affected by it if I am wrong. We both honor the Lord's communion. We both die, all the same. At the final judgment I am not sure that I will be harshly condemned for a case of mistaken chemistry, but if I were guilty of idolatry then it would be a different matter. My position, if it were wrong, would not be so much of a problem as a matter of trivia. Your position, if wrong, would be a disaster.

I believe you are wrong.

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