Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

[Bible Highlighter]

That's why there's Thunderbird and Wild Irish Rose, cheap fortified wines that are more industrial chemicals than wine. That's different from enjoying something like a Bordeaux, part of which is the alcoholic body of the wine.



Pot is a different kind of buzz. Alcohol produces a more dissociative effect (which is why in large amounts, people black out or forget what they have done). Pot is more like a psychedelic and alters perceptions.

Sounds like you are splitting hairs to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Seems to me you're clutching at straws.

In John 2 we are told that Jesus changed water into wine. Had it said "fruit of the vine", there may be some room for argument. But the wine did not come from grapes or a vine, but water.
That's all we are told - wine was created and drunk. There is no room to argue that it was either alcoholic or otherwise.
Wanting it to be otherwise because of a belief that "wine is not for kings", or "Jesus wouldn't have given out strong drink", is not enough. The text says wine; anything else is reading into it.

Referring to older dictionaries is grasping at straws? If you say so.

 

[gordonhooker]

Does grape juice automatically become wine? I thought there was more to it than that?

A lot of fruits if left will become overripe and produce alcohol it is a natural process and grapes are no different.

here is a link to the process of fermentation it is fairly simple and to the point:

Fermentation and wine making

 

[Strong in Him]

A lot of fruits if left will become overripe and produce alcohol it is a natural process and grapes are no different.

here is a link to the process of fermentation it is fairly simple and to the point:

Fermentation and wine making

That may or may not have been true for the Passover meals they had - but in John 2, no grapes were involved. Jesus created wine, from water.

 

[gordonhooker]

That may or may not have been true for the Passover meals they had - but in John 2, no grapes were involved. Jesus created wine, from water.

What has the first of Johns Gospels signs got to do with the OP? The turning of the water into wine was the first miracle/sign mentioned in Johns Gospel, it has nothing to do with the elements of the Eucharist.

You obviously have some issue with alcohol and nothing anyone says here is going to make any difference to your opinion so I will leave it with you.

 

[Strong in Him]

What has the first of Johns Gospels signs got to do with the OP? The turning of the water into wine was the first miracle/sign mentioned in Johns Gospel, it has nothing to do with the elements of the Eucharist.

I know.
I brought it up partly because of the debate about wine v grape juice. Whatever was used at the last supper, Jesus once produced, and presumably drank, wine - no grapes used.

You obviously have some issue with alcohol and nothing anyone says here is going to make any difference to your opinion so I will leave it with you.

None at all.
I don't drink alcohol. I don't mind if others do, or abstain from it. I don't mind if it could be proved one way or the other, from Scripture, that wine/grape juice was used.

What I question is the insistence by some that unless the elements at communion are exactly those used by Jesus and the 12, the Eucharist has not been observed/partaken.
I don't believe that. Clearly, some people here do; hence the determination to identify those elements and prove that they could be nothing else.
I don't believe that, and so I'd be happy to worship God, remember Jesus' death, draw near to him, and so on, using crackers/white bread/wholemeal/gluten free and wine/non alcoholic wine or grape juice. I've had nearly every combination over the years. Argue if you like about which of those occasions was "Communion"/Eucharist - what matters to me is/was that God was present by his Spirit, fed me, taught me and was close. I am pretty sure that this is the only thing that matters to him too. Like I said before, how many people have been condemned/judged/punished/had eternal life withdrawn or not been blessed because they drank the wrong kind of wine? I have never known that to happen.

What do you think the Lord would prefer; that we keep his feast, remember him, honor his Son or have academic arguments about the composition of the elements?

 

[Dave-W]

Does grape juice automatically become wine? I thought there was more to it than that?

In about 6 weeks after harvest you have alcoholic wine.

 

[Dave-W]

What I question is the insistence by some that unless the elements at communion are exactly those used by Jesus and the 12, the Eucharist has not been observed/partaken.
I don't believe that. Clearly, some people here do; hence the determination to identify those elements and prove that they could be nothing else.

So you would be ok with Coke and a potatoe chip?

 

[Dave-W]

That may or may not have been true for the Passover meals they had - but in John 2, no grapes were involved. Jesus created wine, from water.

Unless you are claiming HE turned water into wine again, that has no bearing on the discussion.

 

[Strong in Him]

So you would be ok with Coke and a potatoe chip?

As I've said, possibly twice now, on a regular basis, in church; no.
As a one off, on a picnic/pilgrimage or any other place where nothing else was to hand but we wanted Communion with the Lord Jesus; sure.

 

[Strong in Him]

Unless you are claiming HE turned water into wine again, that has no bearing on the discussion.

I know; I've already admitted that.
But someone quoted an article which basically said that Jesus would never have drunk/used wine.
Cana was one occasion, I believe, that proves otherwise.

 

[Dave-W]

Cana was one occasion, I believe, that proves otherwise.

I agree with that; but the congregation I grew up in had a proof-text they took as claiming otherwise:

“You have saved the best for last.”

“Now everybody knows how much better grape juice is than that nasty old alcoholic wine”

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree with that; but the congregation I grew up in had a proof-text they took as claiming otherwise:

“You have saved the best for last.”

“Now everybody knows how much better grape juice is than that nasty old alcoholic wine”

Well I don't like either.
And that is what I would call reading into the text - having made a massive assumption first.

When I was a child, I vowed never to be confirmed, so that I could never take communion, because of the wine.
As a teenager, I changed my mind, reckoning that a small sip wouldn't kill me, was worth it and could even be seen as suffering for the Gospel! (I was a teenager.)
As an adult, I learnt that the cup drunk after the Passover meal was the cup of suffering, and it would remind me that Jesus' death wasn't pleasant - to say the least.