Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

[DavidPT]

The coming of Titus and AD70 is not central to Amil, only Preterist thinking. But most Amils are not Preterists and would oppose many of their beliefs. Premil has an even bigger problem. They have no corroboration for all their fundamental theories. They force 1,000 years in countless passages where it doesn't exist.

Obviously there are different versions of Amil. I mainly have your version of Amil in mind most of the time since your take on these things is what I am most familar with. Some of these other Amils, like the ones you are meaning, I'm unable to follow their line of thinking altogether, when coming to this particular subject involving the thousand years.

So I only used 70 AD as an example to try and illustrate my point. I wanted to use an example of something that is prophesied in the Bible, yet post the cross, something that no one would dispute. No one disputes 70 AD is prophesied in the Bible and that it occurred post the cross. And if we have been in the thousand years since the cross, according to some versions of Amil, such as you hold, that obviously means the events of 70 AD took place during the thousand years. Yet nowhere in those prophecies does it even remotely mention a thousand years.

Why then do Premils, when they present OT texts that they feel support this thousand years, need to have these OT texts specifically mentioning the thousand years in order to convince Amils that this is meaning during the thousand years?

 

[DavidPT]

Its says EVERY Eye Shall see.. TV's can't supply the vision of the event for every eye on the earth... nor can cell phones or computers... none of them can account for for every eye seeing..... especially the Blind.

What else ya got?

Can you remind me what you take every eye shall see to mean? I want to see if I can make arguments against that idea the same way you did with mine. Which BTW, I'm not disputing your arguments. They are perfectly reasonable.

 

[Andrewn]

In my mind Zechariah14:16-19 is undeniably meaning post the 2nd coming. These can't be meaning the saved who put on immortality at the last trump, therefore must be meaning unsaved mortal survivors. No mortal can live forever though, so that obviously means something has to put an end to their mortality eventually, post the 2nd coming. The only thing that can possibly do that is the same thing you find to be ridiculous above.

You're making way too many assumptions and they're leading you to the wrong conclusions. Zec 14:16-21 takes place after the 2nd coming. They describe the aftermath of Armageddon / Gog & Magog at end of the current Millennium. Note the global earthquakes and radical tectonic activity mentioned in Eze 38:20 and Zec 14:4-5.

At the Lord's 2nd coming with glorified saints, He destroys the armies of the beast. Unsaved survivors will have to worship the King (just as it is prophesied several times in the NT). Those who refuse will be punished.

Zec 14:16 All those left from all the nations who attacked Jerusalem will go up annually to pay homage to the king, the Lord of heavenly forces, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

17 Whoever among the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to pay homage to the king, the Lord of heavenly forces, upon them no rain will fall.

18 And if the family of Egypt doesn’t go up and doesn’t present itself, then no rain will fall on them. There will be a plague like the one with which the Lord struck the nations that didn’t go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

19 This would be the sin of Egypt and the sin of all the nations who don’t go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

20 On that day, Holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the pots in the Lord’s house will be holy like the bowls before the altar.

 

[mkgal1]

Partial Preterists fall into the two categories of "Postmillennialism" and "Amillennialism". A distinction (that I see, anyway) between the two "camps" would be in the NATURE and purpose of His Messianic reign. Ammillennials see that purpose as restorative and redemptive (and I won't speak for postmills).

To try to clear up the issue of Full Preterism and Partial preterism: Full preterists view no end to wickedness in humanity (in the hearts of humanity).....what we see now is how things will remain (in that view) because ALL is fulfilled. In the FP view, there is no ongoing restoration......but I believe, as do all that are of the Amil view, that Christ is restoring all creation unto Him (or making all things new - Acts 3:21; Col 1:20). Full preterists have the millennium ENDING at 70 AD........amillennial partial preterists have it BEGINNING there.

This is one of the first things I read (about a year ago) that led me to begin reading about eschatology and contemplating what's true. Prior to this.....NONE of what I'd read or heard made any sense. This, I believe, is a good representation as to what the Amill view beliefs are:

From Making All Things New by Benjamin L. Gladd and Matthew S. Harmon With an Introductory Chapter by G. K. Beale: This is not your ordinary book on eschatology. Usually when people hear that term, they think of the events connected to the future return of Jesus Christ and the very end of history. As a result, topics such as the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennium take center stage. Such an approach is often reinforced by systematic theology textbooks, which usually treat eschatology as a separate chapter focusing on these issues. But we believe that this understanding of eschatology is too narrow when it comes to what the Bible teaches. Our English term “eschatology” comes from two Greek words: eschatos (“last”) and logos (“word”). So, eschatology is the study of the “last things.” But as we will try to demonstrate, eschatology is not limited to the events connected to the return of Jesus Christ. According to the NT, the life, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus have ushered in the “latter days,” as promised in the OT. Therefore, the “latter days” encompass the entire time period between the first and second comings of Christ. As a result, eschatology is not limited to the “last chapter” of what God will do in this world but rather frames all that God has done and will do in Jesus Christ. Among biblical scholars and theologians this understanding has come to be known as “inaugurated eschatology.” The word “inaugurated” reflects the observation that while the latter-day new-creational kingdom has begun with the work of Jesus, it has not yet been consummated in all its fullness. Another way of referring to this phenomenon is to use the expression “already–not yet.” God’s kingdom has already found its initial fulfillment in and through Jesus Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit, and the formation of the eschatological people of God. But the kingdom has not yet been realized in all its fullness. Stated differently, God’s promises have found their initial fulfillment while still awaiting their complete and final consummation


http://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com...es/files/Excerpt_9780801049606.pdf?1453997989​

 

[Christian Gedge]

Rather, Revelation makes no mention of antichrist(s), anywhere in the book.

Revelation talks about 'beast' empires. As we all know, empires have flesh and blood leaders. So, if we were to say 'Greece' in BC 168, it would not take a rocket scientist to figure that Antiochus Epiphenes was its antichrist. If we were to say 'Rome' in AD 60, it would not take a rocket scientist to figure that Nero was its antichrist.

Revelation is a symbolic book as you well know, and antichrists are inferred. An antichrist is the embodiment of the 'beast.'

 

[Andrewn]

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[DavidPT]

I have already explained this to you, but you seem determined to misrepresent Amil, in order to try and aid Premil.

There is normal Amil and then a distorted quasi-Full Preterist view, that wants to parade itself as Amil to add credibility to its error, but it is not Amil. The millenium is really an illusion. It has recently been forbidden on this forum according to recent Mod statements. That is because of their views on the second coming, resurrection and the NHNE being fulfilled already in AD70. This is heretical!

I'm not trying to misrepresent Amil in order to aid Premil. Clearly there are different versions of Amil, the same way there are different versions of Premil. Your version of Amil is the version I'm mainly familiar with. Your version of Amil has the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 happening after the thousand years, regardless that Revelation 20:4 has it happening before the thousand years. These other Amils which you say are not Amils, at least, unlike you, have the 42 month reign of the beast chronologically correct since they apparently agree that it is prior to the thousand years and not after instead. But even so, they are still incorrect about things over all, because for one, they place the 42 month reign of the beast as way in the past rather than in the end of the age where it belongs.

You OTOH, correctly place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of the age where it belongs, yet illogically place it after the thousand years where it doesn't belong. Premil, like or not, doesn't have any of these issues. Premil agrees with the chronology of events involved.

 

[mkgal1]

ALL Bible Believing Christians are Preterist.
We only vary by degree.

Exactly! I guess that drum needs to continually be beat (or is it beaten?).

I just wanted to add this to your statement, because this shows beautifully how ALL Christians are partial preterists as we all agree this has been fulfilled (I appreciated how this was presented). I would hope that we ALL agree with what's written here:

Quoting Don Stewart on Blue Letter Bible: Jesus made it clear that the Old Testament predicted His coming. He said to the religious leaders of His day.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me (John 5:39).

The Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled include the following.

1. The Family Line Was Predicted

Jesus fulfilled a number of predictions that have to do with the Messiah's genealogy, or family line. God narrowed down the family line of the Messiah in such a way that eliminated most people who have ever been born.

Prediction: He Will Come From The Family Of Shem

He [Noah] also said, "Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. "May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant" (Genesis 9:26,27).

Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham and Japeth. God eliminated one third of humanity when He said the Messiah would come through the line of Shem.

The Fulfillment Recorded

Luke records the fulfillment.

The son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech (Luke 3:36).

Luke lists the genealogy of Jesus in which he records Jesus was a descendant of Shem.

Prediction: The Christ Will Be A Descendant Of Abraham

Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father's house, to the land which I will show you; and I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing; and I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Genesis 12:1-3).

Now God eliminates all the families of the earth but one-the family of Abraham. Whoever claims to be the Messiah has to be a descendant of Abraham for God told Abraham that one of his descendants will bless all the earth.

The Fulfillment Recorded

The fulfillment is recorded in Matthew.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the Son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1).

The Testimony Of Paul

The Apostle Paul, in the New Testament, emphasized that God specified one from Abraham's line would be the Christ.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to the seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your seed,' who is Christ' (Galatians 3:16).

The Apostle Paul says that God uses the singular rather than the plural to emphasize it will be one particular descendant of Abraham who will bless the world.

Prediction: He Will Be a Descendant Of Isaac

Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. God promised Isaac that the Messiah would be through his family line.

Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham. And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 26:3,4).

The Fulfillment Recorded

Matthew records the fulfillment.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ . . . Abraham begot Isaac (Matthew 1:1,2).

Jesus was from Isaac's line.

Prediction: The Messiah Will Come From The Family Of Jacob

God also said to him [Jacob], "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come forth from you. And the land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, and I will give the land to your descendants after you" (Genesis 35:11,12).

Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. Scripture says that the chosen line was through Jacob. This continues to narrow the possible candidates for the Messiah.

The Fulfillment Recorded

Matthew records how this was fulfilled.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ . . . Isaac begot Jacob (Matthew 1:1,2).

Jesus was also from the line of Jacob.

Prediction: He Will Come From Tribe Of Judah

Jacob had twelve sons. God eliminated 11/12 of the line of Jacob by saying the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.

The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples (Genesis 49:10).

The Fulfillment Recorded

Jesus descended from the line of Judah.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ . . . Jacob begot Judah and his brothers . . . and to Judah were born Perez and Zerah by Tamar; and to Perez (Matthew 1:1-3).

Prediction: The Messiah Will Be From Family Line Of Jesse

There were many family lines in the tribe of Judah, but only through the family line of Jesse could the Messiah come. He is the Branch that will bear fruit.

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit (Isaiah 11:1)

The Fulfillment Recorded

Matthew records how this was fulfilled.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ . . . Obed begot Jesse (Matthew 1:1,5).

Prediction: He Will Descend From The House Of David

God told David the Messiah would be from His line:

When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom (2 Samuel 7:12).

Jesse had at least eight sons. God eliminated 7/8 of the sons of Jesse when He said the Messiah would be through the line of David. Again, the list of potential candidates gets narrower and narrower.

The Fulfillment Recorded

The very first verse of the New Testament records the fulfillment of this prophecy.

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the Son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1).

When the angel appeared to Mary announcing Jesus' birth he confirmed that Mary's child would be a descendant of David.

You will conceive in your womb and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give him the throne of His father David (Luke 1:31,32).

Fulfilled By Jesus

Consequently whoever the promised Messiah would be, He would have to be a physical descendant of David the king. All other individuals would not qualify. Therefore, from the predictions with respect to the genealogy of the Messiah, the great majority of the people who have ever been born are eliminated from contention. Jesus, however, fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies about the family line of the Messiah being a descendant of David.

2. The Place Of His Coming Predicted

In addition, the exact place of His birth was predicted.

Prediction: He Will Born In Bethlehem

God predicted, through the prophet Micah, the exact city where the Messiah would be born:

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity (Micah 5:2).

Every city in the world was eliminated but one-Bethlehem. Thus if someone was a descendant of King David, yet was born in any other city than Bethlehem, he would not qualify as the promised Messiah.

The Fulfillment Recorded

Matthew records this fulfillment.

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem (Matthew 2:1).

Jesus was not only born in the right family, He was also born at the right place.

3. The Time Of His Coming Predicted

Finally, we have the prediction with respect to the time in history of the Messiah's coming.

Prediction: He Will Be Killed Before The Temple And The City Of Jerusalem Are Destroyed

The Scripture predicted the death of the Messiah.

The Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26).

We learn three things from this verse:

The Messiah will come on the scene of history.
He will be killed.

After His death, the city of Jerusalem and temple will be destroyed.
The Fulfillment Recorded

When Jesus came to the earth, the temple had not yet been destroyed. Teaching at the temple was an important part of Jesus' ministry. The temple was destroyed in the year A.D. 70, forty years after His death and resurrection.

Therefore, Jesus fulfilled certain prophecies about the coming Messiah.

He was born in the right family line-David's.
He was born at the right place-Bethlehem.
He was born at the right time in history-before the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed

Two Important Points Need To Be Noted

These three areas of prophecy we have looked at reveal two startling things:

First, the prophecies were fulfilled literally-exactly as they were written. Jesus was literally a descendant of King David, He was literally born in the city of Bethlehem, and He literally came upon the scene of history and was killed before the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

No Human Manipulation

Second, these three lines of prophecy were all fulfilled without any human manipulation or fulfillment. There is no way Jesus could have deliberately fulfilled them, seeing they were all fulfilled by His birth. Before He gave any sermons, before He did anything miraculous, Jesus supernaturally fulfilled these prophecies. He was born in the right family, at the right place, and at the right time in history. Humanly speaking, there is no way Jesus could control these factors. ~ Did Jesus Fulfill the Prophecies about the Messiah?​

 

[parousia70]

Can you remind me what you take every eye shall see to mean? I want to see if I can make arguments against that idea the same way you did with mine. Which BTW, I'm not disputing your arguments. They are perfectly reasonable.

Sure...
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings, that the prophets used very VISUAL/PHYSICAL language to describe, many of which I have laid out for you at least once already in THIS POST.

 

[parousia70]

You're making way too many assumptions and they're leading you to the wrong conclusions. Zec 14:16-21 takes place after the 2nd coming.

Why Just 16-21?

Are you saying the "That Day" of Zechariah 14:4,6,8 & 13 is a different "That day" than 14:20?

 

[claninja]

Clearly this thousand years has a starting point and an ending point. Clearly the starting point is when satan is initially cast into the bottomless pit, therefore being bound in it. Clearly the finishing point of this thousand years is when satan is loosed out of his prison.

Amils believe the "1,000 years" are symbolic and begin with Christ's ascension and end with Christ's 2nd coming. This is where I would disagree with Amils. Per revelation 20, the 2nd coming doesn't follow directly after the "1,000" years ends. Satan' little season follows after the "1,000" years ends. It isn't until AFTER Satan's little season ends that the GWTJ occurs at the 2nd coming and the rest of dead stand before God.

Premils believe the "1,000" years to be literal. However, this literal interpretation is found no where else in scripture. Thus support for a literal 1,000 years is weak imo. Although I do agree with Premils, that it is After the "1,000" years that the satan's little season occurs.

Verse 5 says of this group of the dead---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

What should we conclude from all of this then? That part of this group of the dead already lived again before the remaining part of it did as well. No one from the rest of the dead in verse 5 can possibly be of the blessed and holy that hath part in the first resurrection, otherwise they, too, would have lived again when those in the first resurrection did. And likewise, no one of the first resurrection can also be of the rest of the dead who live not again until the thousand years are finished, the fact they already lived again via the first resurrection, and that one doesn't need to live again twice, but only once.

Notice it is not directly after the "1,000" years that the dead come to life. While the rest of the dead do come to life after the "1,000" years, it is technically not until AFTER satan's little season when he is thrown in the lake of the fire that dead stand before the throne. Thus it is after the 1,000 years and after satan's little season that the rest of the dead come back to life.

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete

Revelation 20:10-11 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

The first resurrection that occurs, is Christ. For he is the first born from the dead. All those that partake in this 1st resurrection are born again believers who become a kingdom of priests (ephesians 2:5, 1 peter 2:9). Thus as a result of Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit:

1.) Satan is bound and cast out to have a little season
2.) the apostles were given authority to judge Israel
3.) those born again are a kingdom of priests to God.

This all began with Christ's 1st coming.

 

[claninja]

It has to be somewhere in the Bible though, wouldn't you think? Most Amils claim we are in the thousand years presently, and have been in them for the past 2000 years since the cross.

Right, and I don't agree with the Amil position on the millennium. I believe the Amil teaching is close, but not completely correct.

Take 70 AD, for instance. That was obviously prophesied in the Bible, therefore if we have been in the thousand years since the cross, that obviously means we would have been in the thousand years during the events of 70 AD.

Your still hung up on the 1,000 years being a linear time line. I don't agree the 1,000 years is a linear timeline. I believe to be symbolic language that points to the restoration of the David Monarchy through Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.

If you are following my logic here, this example shows, assuming we have been in the thousand years since the cross, the Bible doesn't need to mention the thousand years in other portions of the Bible in order to be in the time of the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20. It should be a given, depending on where one places the thousand years.

Right, but your discussing this with someone who is not Amil. As Such I believe the parabolic 1,000 years should be interpreted as the work of Christ at 1st coming and not to a linear period of time.

In the same way, if a Premil uses Scripture from the OT as proof text for this thousand years in question, it doesn't need to mention the thousand years in any of those OT texts in order for any of those events to be taking place during the thousand years, any more than it would need to mention the thousand years in prophesies having to do with 70 AD, as per that example, in order for that event to be taking place during the thousand years.

none of this provides "outside revelation"-scriptural support for a literal "1,000" year reign. until then, your only promoting a theology based on a verse that doesn't even actually mention Christ being on earth to reign for a literal 1,000 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your version of Amil has the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 happening after the thousand years, regardless that Revelation 20:4 has it happening before the thousand years.

You keep stating this without explaining 'why?' Where is your evidence? Constantly repeating a theory is completely different to proving a fact. The truth matters!

 

[mkgal1]

Clearly this thousand years has a starting point and an ending point. Clearly the starting point is when satan is initially cast into the bottomless pit, therefore being bound in it. Clearly the finishing point of this thousand years is when satan is loosed out of his prison.

I have no disagreement with this summary of yours. That's basically the chronology of the Amill framework. @Christian Gedge has a visual for that (but I can't find it right now, maybe he can share it).....but I found this one that represents all the millennial views....in general (although not all amills would call His future return the "Second Coming" - just "future return"). Most amills believe satan's loosed just prior to the completion, as you're saying:

 

[Christian Gedge]

 

[mkgal1]

Thanks, Chris, for posting that. That's the general framework for the Amil view and the Premil view.

For myself......since I believe the destruction of Jerusalem & Herod's Temple was A Coming of the Son of Man.....but still believe in His future return (and a future physical resurrection).......I place The Coming of the Son of Man; the spiritual resurrection; the translation of the saints to God's presence (the rapture) all together in the time frame of 66-70 AD.

 

[Andrewn]

Why Just 16-21? Are you saying the "That Day" of Zechariah 14:4,6,8 & 13 is a different "That day" than 14:20?

The whole chapter, Zec 14, is about Armageddon / Gog & Magog. @DavidPT chose to discuss the latter portion of the chapter, which is the aftermath of the war, so this is what I geared my answer to. I'll be discussing the rest of the chapter in the following thread:

Gog & Magog

 

[Christian Gedge]

Thanks, Chris, for posting that. That's the general framework for the Amil view and the Premil view.

For myself......since I believe the destruction of Jerusalem & Herod's Temple was A Coming of the Son of Man.....but still believe in His future return (and a future physical resurrection).......I place The Coming of the Son of Man; the spiritual resurrection; the translation of the saints to God's presence (the rapture) all together in the time frame of 66-70 AD.

Yikes, if I was God I'd make you do another 50 years in purgatory for that! Since I'm not, you can right-click and save the diagram instead.

 

[mkgal1]

Yikes, if I was God I'd make you do another 50 years in purgatory for that! Since I'm not, you can right-click and save the diagram instead.

Thank goodness! I'll do just that and have it available next time

 

[DavidPT]

You're making way too many assumptions and they're leading you to the wrong conclusions. Zec 14:16-21 takes place after the 2nd coming. They describe the aftermath of Armageddon / Gog & Magog at end of the current Millennium. Note the global earthquakes and radical tectonic activity mentioned in Eze 38:20 and Zec 14:4-5.

At the Lord's 2nd coming with glorified saints, He destroys the armies of the beast. Unsaved survivors will have to worship the King (just as it is prophesied several times in the NT). Those who refuse will be punished.

Zec 14:16 All those left from all the nations who attacked Jerusalem will go up annually to pay homage to the king, the Lord of heavenly forces, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

What I have underlined, do you then think it will be like this for all eternity? If you agree this happens after the 2nd coming, yet disagree there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, wouldn't that logically indicate it will be like this for forever, which then equals even unsaved survivors live for forever on the new earth, except in their case, they can be punished throughout eternity for refusing to comply with what's in verse 16 above?