Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

DeaconDean · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
That was already pre-determined for them.

Do you mean "foreordained" or "predestinated"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

RDKirk · Sep 19, 2016

DeaconDean said:
Lest me forget, in Arminianism, man co-operates with God to bring about their salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

And with Calvinism, a person whether elect or non-elect can do whatever he feels like doing all the time because it won't matter. If he's elect, whatever he feels like doing will be right and if he's non-elect whatever he feels like doing will be wrong, but he doesn't have to be careful about it either way. If it feels good, do it.

DeaconDean · Sep 19, 2016

RDKirk said:
And with Calvinism, a person whether elect or non-elect can do whatever he feels like doing all the time because it won't matter. If he's elect, whatever he feels like doing will be right and if he's non-elect whatever he feels like doing will be wrong, but he doesn't have to be careful about it either way. If it feels good, do it.

Ahhh...the olde antinomianism argument.

Please show me that either in scripture or in John Calvin's writings.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

DeaconDean said:
Do you mean "foreordained" or "predestinated"?

From my theological slant they are one and the same.

DeaconDean · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
From my theological slant they are one and the same.

Two different Greek words with two different meanings.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

DeaconDean said:
Two different Greek words with two different meanings.

But what is the underlying Hebrew?

DeaconDean · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
But what is the underlying Hebrew?

I'm not aware of Hebrew in the book of Acts or Romans.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

DeaconDean said:
I'm not aware of Hebrew in the book of Acts or Romans.

It requires digging. The Hebrew scripture concepts that underlay what the Apostles said.

sdowney717 · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
From CavinistCorner.com:

I think I am being entirely honest with the teaching. I did not say that men would be indifferent, just incapable of making a quality decision for or against the gospel. That was already pre-determined for them. If they are "elect," they cannot refuse the gospel and if they are NOT "elect," they cannot choose for it.

I have read the statements of over a dozen Calvinist websites including Seminaries. They all agree on these points.

Those who do not believe for whatever extraneous or whatever reason you can come up, do not believe because they are blinded in their minds by Satan.
While those who have believed, God has shown His light in their hearts.

2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Nonbelievers have believed the Lie,(Satan) and refused to believe the Truth (Christ) and so be saved.
And no one can believe the Truth about the Christ unless God shines His light in their hearts. Satan can not prevent God from doing that, so then God chooses to whom He will shine His light into their hearts..

twin1954 · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
It requires digging. The Hebrew scripture concepts that underlay what the Apostles said.

The Hebrew concept is covenant mercy. The Hebrew concept is the Lamb slain for a particular people. The Hebrew concept is sovereign mercy.

sdowney717 · Sep 19, 2016

"6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
God has chosen to do this for His people. In that He commands light to shine out from darkness, He has shined out from the transformed heart of His people His light, who were once darkness, but they are now light in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:8
[ Walk in Light ] For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

Of Him you are in Christ.
Consider How much He has done for you and give Him all the praises and thanksgiving and glory for your being one of the redeemed of the Lord.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

sdowney717 said:
And no one can believe the Truth about the Christ unless God shines His light in their hearts. Satan can not prevent God from doing that, so then God chooses to whom He will shine His light into their hearts..

And God chooses to shine that light to EVERYONE.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But clearly not everyone accepts that. That is THEIR choice.

PrettyboyAndy · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
And God chooses to shine that light to EVERYONE.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Great verse, It looks to me that both are true, we just can not harmonise the two truths, because we are not God.

sdowney717 · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
And God chooses to shine that light to EVERYONE.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But clearly not everyone accepts that. That is THEIR choice.

No you misread to whom and of whom Peter is writing.
Peter is writing to the beloved, who are elect to be saved.
Peter is not writing to the world, Peter is not writing to the ungodly men who are going to hell.
God is longsuffering toward 'us' His elect, whom He knows will repent.
Consider why would God be longsuffering to those He knows will never repent?

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

but is longsuffering toward us (his beloved elect),not willing that any (of them) should perish but that all (His beloved elect) should come to repentance.

PAUL says the exact same thing for why he labors, that the elect will repent and believe and not perish.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Consider why would God be longsuffering to those He knows will never repent?

To give them every opportunity TO repent (even if He already knows that will not happen) so at the final judgement they cannot say they did not have that opportunity.

Skala · Sep 19, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

Greetings Andy,

I think you are making a category error. You described Calvinism as "God's sovereignty" and you described Arminianism as "Man's responsibility", when the truth is, Calvinism affirms both of these ideas. Thus, the two are not exclusive.

In other words, the dividing line between Calvinism and Arminianism is not which one affirms man's responsibility, because they both do.

The reason Calvinism is able to affirm both of these truths is because it affirms the concept of "compatibilism" (look it up sometime). The short of it is this: God sovereignly works out His own will while at the same time man is held responsible for his actions, and yet we cannot understand this mystery with our finite minds. However, since the Bible teaches both of those truths (I can give examples if you'd like), the Bible believing Christian is obligated to believe them, even if they cannot completely understand or reconcile them.

Some examples of doctrines that we are obligated to believe, even if we can't fully understand them, is the Trinity, or the fact that Christ was fully God yet fully human. I'll be the first to admit that I cannot fathom these things with my puny brain, but I see that the Bible teaches them and therefore expects me to believe them.

Compatibilism is the same way

Arminianism denies compatibilism, and therefore, the two concepts [1) God's sovereignty 2) mans' responsibility] cannot co-exist together, therefore Arminianism is forced to throw out one doctrine in order to retain the other. Sadly, Arminianism throws out the doctrine of God's sovereignty in favor of man's responsibility.

Arminianism concludes that since man is held responsible for his actions, that must mean God cannot have decreed such actions to take place.

This is an error that Calvinism denies. As said above, Calvinism affirms both that God decrees all things, and also that man is responsible for his actions.

That is the picture painted in the Bible, thus Calvinism has no problem affirming it and defending it.

Archie the Preacher · Sep 19, 2016

This thread has now officially drifted from "Why Can't C,etc and A,etc Both be True?" into "What does each mean and who's right?" Which pretty much answers the initial question. I don't think the two theories are compatible as currently promoted, and the evidence here shows the supporters cannot agree on the matter, either.

Personally, I think a far more productive approach is to preach Salvation by accepting Jesus and all He and His life entails. No one preaching the Gospel - whether paid staff or simple Christian witnessing to an acquaintance - has ANY ability to decide who is going to make the cut. No Calvinist can tell and no Arminian cares.

If I may borrow and somewhat alter the words of Arnaud (or Arnau) Amalric; "Preach to them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

twin1954 · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
To give them every opportunity TO repent (even if He already knows that will not happen) so at the final judgement they cannot say they did not have that opportunity.

So you show you are willing to twist the plain meaning of the Scriptures in order to uphold your theology? Practically any third grade English student will tell you that your twist is wrong grammatically.

twin1954 · Sep 19, 2016

Archie the Preacher said:
This thread has now officially drifted from "Why Can't C,etc and A,etc Both be True?" into "What does each mean and who's right?" Which pretty much answers the initial question. I don't think the two theories are compatible as currently promoted, and the evidence here shows the supporters cannot agree on the matter, either.

Personally, I think a far more productive approach is to preach Salvation by accepting Jesus and all He and His life entails. No one preaching the Gospel - whether paid staff or simple Christian witnessing to an acquaintance - has ANY ability to decide who is going to make the cut. No Calvinist can tell and no Arminian cares.

If I may borrow and somewhat alter the words of Arnaud (or Arnau) Amalric; "Preach to them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

Any time Arminianism and Calvinism are mentioned in the same paragraph it always turns into a debate about who is right.

I have learned to abhor the debate because for me the souls of men are at stake. It isn't a matter of who is right but one of who is God?

sdowney717 · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
To give them every opportunity TO repent (even if He already knows that will not happen) so at the final judgement they cannot say they did not have that opportunity.

Ok, but that is not a spiritual truth that Jesus taught.
Christ taught that for the sake of the elect, He tells His angels to let them both grow together, saved and unsaved in His field, lest while ripping out the tares, any of His wheat gets uprooted, and He is not willing that anything He has planted as His wheat be damaged or lost.

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The Son of Man sows the good seed in God's field (His chosen elect), but Satan sows the weeds among the wheat (the rebellious sons of disobedience). Tares can not bear any good fruit, they just use up the ground that was made for the wheat.

In God's Kingdom as Lord He reigns, and all things serve and obey Him. I believe in the all powerful government of God that is at work both in Heaven and on the earth.
So there is an order to things, that happen according to the divine council of God, and all must be be submitted to Him and His words, you must recognize and honor and worship Him as the supreme Lord over all the earth or you are a person of lawlessness.

Psalm 24New King James Version (NKJV)
The King of Glory and His Kingdom
A Psalm of David.
24 The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness,
The world and those who dwell therein.

Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Newbie

Baptist by the Bible

Newbie

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

• Andy •

Newbie

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics

Baptist by the Bible

Baptist by the Bible

Newbie

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency