Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

PrettyboyAndy said:

John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

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The two ideas contradict each other. That's why.

Yes. man is responsible to obey God, but that does not mean he is able to. Calvinism insists that man's condition is one of bondage to sin. A willing bondage, but bondage nonetheless. He cannot choose God, not does he want to. His heart must be transformed by a monergistic act of God first.

twin1954 said:

Would you mind if I ask a few questions of your premises just for discussion's sake?

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I don't respond to 'gotcha' questions very well. Go ahead and ask specific questions.

Archie the Preacher said:

I don't respond to 'gotcha' questions very well. Go ahead and ask specific questions.

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I don't care for "gotcha" questions either. Questions asked in order to give you the answer you ought to believe are tiresome.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you that God is not bound by time. Yet He does work in and through time does He not?

My questions will have to do with the theological consequences of your answers so my next question is does God "see" through time or does He actually determine what will happen in time? Given your premise that God is not bound by time how does your view differ from the Arminain? I ask because I am unsure.

PrettyboyAndy said:

I do not believe one can lose their salvation, as they become sealed with the Holy Spirit.

But I am wondering if an Arminian can explain how an unregenerated fallen sinner can accept Christ?

But at the same time, when I meant by my original post, is that there is both an open invitation call for all to believe, and God holds man accountable for their decision on accepting or rejecting Christ, and also at the same time, we see the sovereignty of God in election.

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By ppl rejecting the gospel, it exposes the wickedness in their hearts...

twin1954 said:

I don't care for "gotcha" questions either. Questions asked in order to give you the answer you ought to believe are tiresome.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you that God is not bound by time. Yet He does work in and through time does He not?

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Only when - as far as I can tell - that which upon He acts is bound by time. For instance, I will only live so long; so God 'must' (which is a rather rare word in connection with God) grant me salvation during my lifetime. God can certainly 'step into' time when ever He wants, but He is not confined therein. Much like - but not identical - to the writer of a novel. The writer can devise plots, lines and plot twists. Yet if the novel takes place in a one week period, the writer is not bound to write it in a week.

twin1954 said:

My questions will have to do with the theological consequences of your answers so my next question is does God "see" through time or does He actually determine what will happen in time?

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That looks like two questions.

God "sees" all of the history of His creation (the Universe, for convenience) at once. This includes space and time. Not just from here to the other end of town to Gallifrey, but also from the beginning (whenever that was) until the end; when God calls 'time' and sorts out everything. So God "sees" everything happen AS it happens, but independently of the human experience of time. (If you're not a bit confused, you're not paying attention.) How does He do that? He's God; read the definition.

Does He actually determine what will happen? This gets trickier. God is totally sovereign. However, He is not a dictator in the popular sense. His nature is to allow His creation to sort itself out. However, there are limits. F'rinstance, I cannot fly by flapping my arms. Nor can I leap tall buildings in a single bound. Nor can I misbehave morally and avoid the consequences.

In the strict sense we are discussing, does God select those who will be saved and spend Eternity with Him and those who will spend Eternity without Him in Hell?

God is omniscient, all-seeing, and the entity from whom the human race - especially Christians - derive the concepts of 'fair', 'good' and 'honest'. Who else is qualified to make such a choice? Every human has a bias on the subject. Any other living species (if there are such) in the Universe are also created beings and therefore less than the Creator. So I'll go out on a limb and submit they are unqualified as much as humans.

So yes, God makes the final decision.

I'll admit I do NOT know the mechanism or algorithm by which God selects "these and those". But I am sure it is supremely 'fair' and someday everyone - saved (including Calvinists, Armenians and fence sitters) and unsaved - will agree that God is God, and God is correct and fair in His actions.

twin1954 said:

Given your premise that God is not bound by time how does your view differ from the Arminain? I ask because I am unsure.

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Primarily two ways: I do not believe the deciding vote goes to individual humans, but God ultimately chooses. Nor do I believe an individual human can either change his mind about salvation and opt out, or lose it by a process of 'demerits' (for lack of a better term) based on sinful conduct.

No doubt I've answered some things and brought up new questions. What can I say?

twin1954 said:

In reality Arminians worship a different god than do Calvinists.

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More baloney.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Also is it possible Jacob was referring to Isreal, and Esau Edomites? Not the persons but the nations?

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Not only possible but true. However, bringing this into a discussion about salvation simply muddies the waters. Why don't we all look at John 3:3-21 instead. Everything is very clearly stated by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. God and Christ want the whole world to be saved.

PrettyboyAndy said:

God Regenerates, Gives Faith, Individual Repents and Believes, Receives Holy Spirit and is Saved and is Sealed

Individual grieves over his Sin, Cries out to God, Repents, Believes, Gets Saved, Receives the Holy Spirit and is Sealed

I don't see much differences

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There is a difference.

Even scripture shows that some received the Holy Spirit and was saved.

Prime example, the Apostles.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" -Jn. 20:22 (KJV)

And at Pentecost:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost," -Acts 2:4 (KJV)

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word...Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" -Acts 10:44,47 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Jeremiah said:

"To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it." -Jer. 6:10 (KJV)

This is repeated in Acts:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." -Acts 7:51 (KJV)

Who is it that circumcises the ears so that the individual can hear?

That is one of the differences in Arminianism and Calvinism.

The biggest difference is what the Remonstrants believe:

"V. The primary efficient cause of repentance is God, and Christ as he is through the Spirit mediator between God and man. (Jer. xxxi, 18; Ezek. xxxvi, 25, 26; Acts v, 31; xvii, 30.) The inly moving cause is the goodness, grace, and philanthropy of God our creator and redeemer, who loves the salvation of his creature, and desires to manifest the riches of his mercy in the salvation of his miserable creature. (Rom. xi, 5.) The outwardly moving cause, through the mode of merit, is the obedience, the death and the intercession of Christ; (Isa. liii, 5; 1 Cor. i, 30, 31; 2 Cor. v, 21 and, through the mode of moving to mercy, it is the unhappy condition of sinners, whom the devil holds captive in the snares of iniquity, and who will perish by their own demerits according to the condition of the law, and necessarily according to the will of God manifested in the gospel, unless they repent (John iii, 16; Ezek. xvi, 3-63; Luke xiii, 3, 5; Isa. xxxi, 6; Jer. iii, 14; Psalm cxix, 71; in the prophets passim; Rom. vii, 6, 7.)

VI. The proximate, yet less principal cause, is man himself, converted and converting himself by the power and efficacy of the grace of God and the Spirit of Christ. The external cause inciting to repent is the miserable state of the sinners who do not repent, and the felicitous and blessed state of those who repent -- whether such state be known from the law of Moses or from that of nature, from the gospel or from personal experience, or from the examples of other persons who have been visited with the most grievous plagues through impenitence, or who, through repentance, have been made partakers of many blessings. (Rom. ii, 5; Acts ii, 37.) The internal and inly moving cause is, not only a consciousness of sin and a sense of misery through fear of the Deity, who has been offended, with a desire to be delivered from both, but it is likewise [an incipient] faith and hope of the gracious mercy and pardon of God."

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

convicted1 said:

By ppl rejecting the gospel, it exposes the wickedness in their hearts...

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God commands all men to repent and believe the gospel, if they do not this is sinful disobedience.
So even if someone claims to have no sin, if they do not believe in Christ they have sinned against God's command to repent.
So to not believe in Christ is a sin.

I know 'christians' who say to believe in Islam is ok for Islamic people as that is God's revelation to them. But they are then antichrists.
Acts 17
28 for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;[d]
as even some of your own poets have said,

“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’[e]
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

PrettyboyAndy said:

I agree with this, but I also see a open invitation to all and anyone who believe.

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The gospel is to be proclaimed "promiscuously", to all. It's to be shouted in the streets. It is to be preached in the countryside. It is to be preached to the walking dead (unregenerate man) for it, by the Spirt has the power to transform dry, dead bones into living worshipers of the Living God..

PrettyboyAndy said:

Why can they both not be true?

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Because they teach completely contrary to each other.

Basic Premise:

Arminianism: Man is sovereign.

Calvinism: God is sovereign.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Why can they both not be true?

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As a baptist, McArthur is not a true Calvinist. Two of the 5 points of Cavinism are Total Depravity (meaning we cannot respond to the gospel even if we wanted to) and Irresistible Grace (meaning that when we get the Gospel call we cannot resist it). I have heard McArthur teach against the latter point.

They both cannot be true. They are diametrically opposed on both of those points. However they both may be wrong.

I would submit that even by his title (including the phrase "man's responsibility") he shows himself to NOT be a Calvinist. Total depravity leaves mankind incapable of fulfilling any responsibility.

jimmyjimmy said:

The two ideas contradict each other. That's why.

Yes. man is responsible to obey God, but that does not mean he is able to. Calvinism insists that man's condition is one of bondage to sin. A willing bondage, but bondage nonetheless. He cannot choose God, not does he want to. His heart must be transformed by a monergistic act of God first.

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Armenianism does not deny that. Both doctrines assert that the first act must God's. The more critical difference is whether God's call is resistible by man's will and as an extension of that, whether the Holy Spirit can be evicted once He has come to dwell.

DaveW-Ohev said:

As a baptist, McArthur is not a true Calvinist. Two of the 5 points of Cavinism are Total Depravity (meaning we cannot respond to the gospel even if we wanted to) and Irresistible Grace (meaning that when we get the Gospel call we cannot resist it). I have heard McArthur teach against the latter point.

They both cannot be true. They are diametrically opposed on both of those points. However they both may be wrong.

I would submit that even by his title (including the phrase "man's responsibility") he shows himself to NOT be a Calvinist. Total depravity leaves mankind incapable of fulfilling any responsibility.

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You apparently do not know what the doctrine of total depravity actually is. It in no way teaches that man cannot respond to the Gospel even if he wanted to it teaches that man by nature does not want to. You create a straw man in order to tear it down and by doing so are not actually dealing honestly with the teaching.

In honesty everyone responds to the Gospel every time they hear it. Some believe, being born of God, and some do not but there is no such thing as being indifferent to it.

twin1954 said:

You apparently do not know what the doctrine of total depravity actually is. ... It in no way teaches that man cannot respond to the Gospel even if he wanted to

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From CavinistCorner.com:

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

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I think I am being entirely honest with the teaching. I did not say that men would be indifferent, just incapable of making a quality decision for or against the gospel. That was already pre-determined for them. If they are "elect," they cannot refuse the gospel and if they are NOT "elect," they cannot choose for it.

I have read the statements of over a dozen Calvinist websites including Seminaries. They all agree on these points.

DaveW-Ohev said:

From CavinistCorner.com:



I think I am being entirely honest with the teaching. I did not say that men would be indifferent, just incapable of making a quality decision for or against the gospel. That was already pre-determined for them. If they are "elect," they cannot refuse the gospel and if they are NOT "elect," they cannot choose for it.

I have read the statements of over a dozen Calvinist websites including Seminaries. They all agree on these points.

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If I were a betting man I would bet that not one of those statements ever even intimated that man couldn't respond to the Gospel even if they wanted to. That is the straw man you built.

The doctrines of Total Depravity and Unconditional election keeps out no one who wants in.

The Bible not only teaches that man cannot come but that they will not come. Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely.

RDKirk said:

Armenianism does not deny that. Both doctrines assert that the first act must God's. The more critical difference is whether God's call is resistible by man's will and as an extension of that, whether the Holy Spirit can be evicted once He has come to dwell.

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Lest me forget, in Arminianism, man co-operates with God to bring about their salvation. (Synergism)

"Granting, therefore, man's ability to stifle and to kill the grace of God within him, have we the right to ascribe to him the positive role of a co-operator with God? We have. For in the very act of not killing grace and of listening to the voice of natural conscience, even though at times very inattentively, man is actually co-operating with God in God's efforts in behalf of his salvation. This must be the case; it cannot be otherwise."

W. R. Cannon, The Theology of John Wesley With Special Reference to the Doctrine of Justification (Nashville: Abington, 1946) 115.

God Bless

Till all are one.