Islam Why call Muhammad a prophet?

[dzheremi]

God has always conveyed his message to mankind through prophets. God logically does need prophets in the sense that he can directly convey his message but that is how God chose to deliver his message.

Exactly. We say the same about Christ as you have just said about prophets: Christ is the revelation of God to mankind.

Here u have no proof that jesus is the only way to salvation and forgiveness

I wasn't attempting to show proof of anything. I was explaining to you how we can answer you question.

Islam has no proof of any of its claims, yet you believe in it due to your trust in what Muhammad claims to have received from God. We claim, with the evidence of 2,000 years of Christianity across the world, that we have not just received from God (in scriptures, prophecies, etc.), but actually received God Himself in Jesus Christ. I know already that you don't believe this, but my point is actually that our claim is much greater than "Jesus can forgive sins" or some such. Of course He can. He is God. Not just a messenger.

 

[Limo]

Post #116:


Post #118:


Why are you guys constantly being dishonest, it’s as if your religion pre-programs you to continuously lie, I’ve had it to be honest, your religion is only good at two things lying and forcing itself on others at sword point. Lie after lie after lie, you Mohammadans can lie and deceive yourselves, but not God or Christ.

Let us see who is dishonest and liar

#116
Christ forgives Sin’s with the Father’s authority by the power of the Holy
#118
Christ doesn’t take authority from the Father

I know you'll go in circles explaining the Trinity paradox that you don't easily understand.
Be honest first and answer the question: are these your own words or did I twist by any means ?
Don't see the contradictions?
I accept neutral judge

On the other hand
Are we Moslems who do lie after lie and decieve ourselves ?

Let us see
Do you think you're smart ?
Do you claim understanding of Trinity?
Do you decieve yourself?

Ok
Will you tell ? who teaches "Having said that, I admit that no one fully understands it. It is a mystery and a paradox. Yet I believe it is true."

And "If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul."
Hint : who said so is very Christian person, for sure not a Moslem.

Regards

 

[dzheremi]

Here we see the vast difference in approach between the two religions. Muslims apparently have an easy to understand god. Just look at how they gave him 99 names. So they can say a lot with all of their names and speculations, and mock us for our 'confusing' doctrine, which they don't understand is not something dreamed up by a bunch of egghead theologians who got together to decide what thing everyone should believe, but is in fact the very revelation of God to man. When God does something, you respect His prerogatives as God, right? You don't say, "Oh, I don't like the way you chose to do that, God; it's confusing to me, and you need to be more understandable according to what I can accept of you." Maybe you are used to having a god who is actually the servant of your prophet (as 'Aisha said to Muhammad: "your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires"), rather than the other way around, but this is not what we mean when we say that Jesus Christ came to serve, not to be served. It is not to be pushed around and molded according to the understanding of some ignorant people, whether they are 7th century Arab tribes or 1st century Jewish sectarians.

Besides, with all of your own theologians speculating on this or that concerning your god (because apparently your Qur'an and extra-Qur'anic materials leave some things to be desired in terms of explanation), you are really in no place to look down on anyone, Muslims. Just look at how your own leaders answer the question "Where is Allah?":

No doubt you will say that this is an edited video, and these people don't represent the scholarship of the true Islamic scholars, and so on and so forth. Fine. I'd say the same thing to your quotes that you pick up from some insane anti-Trinitarian websites and such and present here as though people who did not write them or say them must somehow defend them or explain them away. So you found some quotes somewhere. So what? This is not the magic bullet to destroy Christianity that you and others may think it is. It simply shows that you too have the very human tendency to agree with those things that make your opposition look bad, regardless of whether or not they are good arguments in themselves. The fact that someone said that explaining the Trinity will drive a person insane does not prove that the Trinity in itself is insane. It simply says that you cannot explain away God in His own nature. All of the writing and preaching on the Holy Trinity throughout all ages is what we have been illumined to know of God; it is not an exhaustive exposé on the inner workings of God in Himself. God's essence is His own, unknowable just as ours also are as individual people. Writing about it or believing something about it does not exhaust what can be written. In a manner akin to John 21:25 in its description of Christ's unrecorded deeds (that if they were all written down, the earth itself could not contain all the resulting books), what is known (that is, revealed) and proclaimed of God is but that which we can be blessed to know, as the Holy Spirit taught our fathers on the day of Pentecost, enlightening them with all spiritual wisdom as described here:

And from the holy Agpeya (the book of daily prayers):

THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

^^^ This is not complicated or confusing. God teaches us to worship Him as He has revealed Himself, and so we do.

 

[Godistruth1]

Exactly. We say the same about Christ as you have just said about prophets: Christ is the revelation of God to mankind.

See in your case you dont have enough proof even from bible. Most of the proof that are quoted are mostly interpretations

Islam has no proof of any of its claims, yet you believe in it due to your trust in what Muhammad claims to have received from God. We claim, with the evidence of 2,000 years of Christianity across the world, that we have not just received from God (in scriptures, prophecies, etc.), but actually received God Himself in Jesus Christ. I know already that you don't believe this, but my point is actually that our claim is much greater than "Jesus can forgive sins" or some such. Of course He can. He is God. Not just a messenger.

Yes it has clear proof of everything we believe and we dont have ambiguous beliefs that are necessary for being a Muslim. Again you have no clear proof that jesus is God. All there is are interpretations. Im gonna become Christian if u give me one verse in entire bible where jesus says im God or he says worship me.

 

[Godistruth1]

Here we see the vast difference in approach between the two religions. Muslims apparently have an easy to understand god. Just look at how they gave him 99 names. So they can say a lot with all of their names and speculations, and mock us for our 'confusing' doctrine, which they don't understand is not something dreamed up by a bunch of egghead theologians who got together to decide what thing everyone should believe, but is in fact the very revelation of God to man. When God does something, you respect His prerogatives as God, right? You don't say, "Oh, I don't like the way you chose to do that, God; it's confusing to me, and you need to be more understandable according to what I can accept of you." Maybe you are used to having a god who is actually the servant of your prophet (as 'Aisha said to Muhammad: "your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires"), rather than the other way around, but this is not what we mean when we say that Jesus Christ came to serve, not to be served. It is not to be pushed around and molded according to the understanding of some ignorant people, whether they are 7th century Arab tribes or 1st century Jewish sectarians.

Hey man chill. Im being honest here. While it is no doubt easy to understand islamic theology and a bit complex in Christianity there is basic sense that God has provided us. How can God who have us sense want us to just believe and not use our senses. That's why im looking at Christianity on a logical perspective. Things like trinity being one God and at the same time having 3 persons does need a lot of blind faith. Although even in islam there are things that need to be believed without any proof but in islam there is room for lot of logic but in Christianity there is not room for logic and u just gotta believe.

Besides, with all of your own theologians speculating on this or that concerning your god (because apparently your Qur'an and extra-Qur'anic materials leave some things to be desired in terms of explanation), you are really in no place to look down on anyone, Muslims. Just look at how your own leaders answer th

Im not looking down on anyone or you dear brother. That happens usually in debates which can get heated sometimes. There are no doubt different beliefs on even who jesus is in Christianity. Im not debating different denominations. Allah says in Quran he is on Arsh. Thats my proof. Does not matter for me what somebody else believes. If we debate how different Christians have different beliefs on major things this would not go anywhere.

This is not complicated or confusing. God teaches us to worship Him as He has revealed Himself, and so we do.

Simple enough. We can agree to disagree

 

[Barney2.0]

Let us see who is dishonest and liar

I know you'll go in circles explaining the Trinity paradox that you don't easily understand.
Be honest first and answer the question: are these your own words or did I twist by any means ?
Don't see the contradictions?
I accept neutral judge

On the other hand
Are we Moslems who do lie after lie and decieve ourselves ?

Let us see
Do you think you're smart ?
Do you claim understanding of Trinity?
Do you decieve yourself?

Ok
Will you tell ? who teaches "Having said that, I admit that no one fully understands it. It is a mystery and a paradox. Yet I believe it is true."

And "If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul."
Hint : who said so is very Christian person, for sure not a Moslem.

Regards

Are you serious? Read post #118:

This was an odd reply, fortunately I won’t have to answer Christ will:

All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

John 16:15

Christ naturally possesses the authority of the Father being begotten of the same essence. He doesn’t need to take authorization every time he forgives sins, he already possess the authority, and the Holy Spirit works in Union with that authority to forgive sins. The works of the Holy Spirit are never separate or apart from other members of the Godhead such as the Father and Son, there has never been a time when the Son or Spirit was without authority since the Son, because the Son was begotten before all creation and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father through the Son. No person of the trinity needs the other, they work in absolute unity with each other, when the Father raises the dead and gives life so do the Son and Holy Spirit. Christ doesn’t take authority from the Father he possesses that authority by nature of being God the Son, the Holy Spirit that eternally proceeds from the essence of the Father acts in unity with the Son and Father, also just as a simple refutation of your argument, you having a boss doesn’t make you less human than your boss. So you have been refuted on the trinity again.

Christ doesn’t need the Father’s authority, he already has all authority the Father has, he does what ever he sees the Father doing.

On the other hand
Are we Moslems who do lie after lie and decieve ourselves ?

I’m not sure about Mohammadans in the plural, but your definitely dishonest, the fact you have no logical argument against the trinity you resorted to try to misquote my post to make me seem as if I contradicted myself, yet you failed in that regard.

Let us see
Do you think you're smart ?
Do you claim understanding of Trinity?
Do you decieve yourself?

No, No, and No.

Ok
Will you tell ? who teaches "Having said that, I admit that no one fully understands it. It is a mystery and a paradox. Yet I believe it is true."

And "If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul."
Hint : who said so is very Christian person, for sure not a Moslem.

Regards

Your quoting Saint Augustine and your misquoting him, the Fathers both before him and after him described the trinity and the relationship between the three persons. What is meant by the statement “no one fully understands it,” is that no one knows how its inner workings work logically speaking, or how God has more than one Hypostasis. That said, it doesn’t mean it can’t be explaines logically like the Fathers of the Church have constantly explained, anyone who willfully denies the trinity like Arius will be damned, that’s correct. Also I’m going to have to burst your bubble here, because your argument equally applies to your own faith, Qadr or divine predestination according to Islamic theologians themselves can’t be argued against using human reason and is an article of faith which must be believed in:

That al-qadar is Allaah’s plan for His creation. What He has shown us of it, we know and believe in, and what He has hidden from us, we accept and believe in. We do not dispute with Allaah concerning His actions and rulings with our limited minds and comprehension, rather we believe in Allaah’s complete justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be asked about what He does, may He be glorified and praised.

Belief in al-qadar is the real test of the extent of a person’s belief in Allaah. It is the true test of how much a person really knows about his Lord and what results from this knowledge of certain and sincere faith in Allaah, and His attributes of majesty and perfection. That is because al-qadar raises many questions for the one who gives free rein to his reasoning to try to fully comprehend it. There have been many disputes concerning the issue of al-qadar and many people have engaged in debates and misinterpreted the verses of the Qur’aan that mention it. Indeed, the enemies of Islam in all eras have provoked confusion in the Muslims’ beliefs by discussing the issue of al-qadar and stirring up doubts about it. So no one can have true and certain faith except the one who knows Allaah by His beautiful names and sublime attributes, submitting to His commands with peace of mind and trusting in his Lord. In that case no doubts or specious arguments can find a way into his heart. Undoubtedly this is the greatest proof that belief in al-qadar is more important than belief in the other pillars of faith, and that the human mind cannot independently come to understand al-qadar, because al-qadar is one of the mysteries of Allaah in His creation; whatever Allaah has disclosed to us in His Book or on the lips of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we know, accept and believe in, and whatever our Lord has not told us, we believe in and we believe in His perfect justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

Belief of Ahl al-Sunnah concerning al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar (Divine Will and Decree) - Islam Question & Answer

Your whole argument on the trinity not being able to completely be understood logically falls apart since by that logic you’d also have to reject Al Qadr in Islam and I’d your do that your no longer a Muslim, but a Kaafir. Also something being beyond logic doesn’t make it illogical, I’d also challenge you to find something in the trinity that makes it irrational or contrary to logic, you can’t, it can be explained logically, but it can’t be fully understood in human terms, and unfortunately for you this also exists in your own faith.

 

[Barney2.0]

Hey man chill. Im being honest here. While it is no doubt easy to understand islamic theology and a bit complex in Christianity there is basic sense that God has provided us. How can God who have us sense want us to just believe and not use our senses. That's why im looking at Christianity on a logical perspective. Things like trinity being one God and at the same time having 3 persons does need a lot of blind faith. Although even in islam there are things that need to be believed without any proof but in islam there is room for lot of logic but in Christianity there is not room for logic and u just gotta believe.

Im not looking down on anyone or you dear brother. That happens usually in debates which can get heated sometimes. There are no doubt different beliefs on even who jesus is in Christianity. Im not debating different denominations. Allah says in Quran he is on Arsh. Thats my proof. Does not matter for me what somebody else believes. If we debate how different Christians have different beliefs on major things this would not go anywhere.

Simple enough. We can agree to disagree

Islamic theology isn’t easy to understand, Islam doesn’t even have its own articulate theology. Since in Islam your not allowed to use philosophy or logical reasoning in regards to God or his attributes, the last people to try and do that the Mu’tazilites were damned as heretics and killed. Aren’t you and I the same man and different persons? That doesn’t need any blind faith, it’s based on logical reasoning.

 

[Barney2.0]

See in your case you dont have enough proof even from bible. Most of the proof that are quoted are mostly interpretations

In regards to what @dzheremi was saying, the proof from the Bible is John chapter 1.

Yes it has clear proof of everything we believe and we dont have ambiguous beliefs that are necessary for being a Muslim. Again you have no clear proof that jesus is God. All there is are interpretations. Im gonna become Christian if u give me one verse in entire bible where jesus says im God or he says worship me.

So what about Al Qadr? Let me reverse your question on you, show me where Christ says in the Quran where I’m the Messiah or I’m the Word from Allah in his own words, once you agree that he doesn’t have to say it like that, you’ve invalidated your own position, and we’ve already been showing you for the part two years since you first appeared on here where Christ says I’m God and where he says worship me.

 

[Godistruth1]

Christ doesn’t need the Father’s authority, he already has all authority the Father has, he does what ever he sees the Father doing.

Now again you are claiming something there is no proof of. Till now we have seen him attributing all authority to Father. Now if u say he does not need permission from the father u gotta prove otherwise.

I’m not sure about Mohammadans in the plural, but your definitely dishonest, the fact you have no logical argument against the trinity you resorted to try to misquote my post to make me seem as if I contradicted myself, yet you failed in that regard.

The logical argument has always been there against trinity. How is 1+1+1=1 logically when each person is different? Paulians say u gotta believe it and not question it

No, No, and No.

If u claim u dont understand trinity how can u try to make others understand it and also deem it logical?

 

[Godistruth1]

In regards to what @dzheremi was saying, the proof from the Bible is John chapter 1.

Please quote where

So what about Al Qadr? Let me reverse your question on you, show me where Christ says in the Quran where I’m the Messiah or I’m the Word from Allah in his own words, once you agree that he doesn’t have to say it like that, you’ve invalidated your own position, and we’ve already been showing you for the part two years since you first appeared on here where Christ says I’m God and where he says worship me

What about qadr?
Word or Messiah does in no way mean son of God or God

 

[Barney2.0]

Now again you are claiming something there is no proof of. Till now we have seen him attributing all authority to Father. Now if u say he does not need permission from the father u gotta prove otherwise.

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:5

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

Luke 7:48

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28

Stop repeating yourself.

The logical argument has always been there against trinity. How is 1+1+1=1 logically when each person is different? Paulians say u gotta believe it and not question it

I can’t remember the times when you’ve mentioned that on these forums only to get educated on it and then run away. We don’t believe God is three and one in the same respect so your equation of 1+1+1=1 fails, since it’s a strawman argument. God is three in person 1+1+1=3, and one in nature 1x1x1=1. Also since God is infinite you can equally do it as ∞+∞+∞=∞. So again you’ve failed to prove that the trinity contradicts logic. That’s what your Mohammadan scholars say about Qadr, yet you believe in it, so what are you criticizing Christians for?

If u claim u dont understand trinity how can u try to make others understand it and also deem it logical?

That’s not what I said, why do you keep misquoting me and expect to have a normal conversation. I said we can’t fully understand it, I didn’t say we can’t explain it in logical terms or that it contradicts logic, and that question goes back to you how do you believe in Qadr if Islamic scholars classify it as a mystery?

 

[Barney2.0]

Please quote where

I don’t need to all of John 1 is about Christ coming as a salvation to the world.

What about qadr?
Word or Messiah does in no way mean son of God or God

Can you read? You made the claim the challenge of where does Christ say I am God or where he says worship me, since you require that he say it in those words, I reply to you by asking you where does Christ say I am the Messiah or the Word of God in the Quran, he doesn’t say it, thus since you can now admit that Christ doesn’t need to say it in those specific words, we can now prove where he claimed to be God by his divine claims and actions.

 

[Godistruth1]

Stop repeating yourself.

Because u never proved there is any verse so i gotta repeat my question

Can you read? You made the claim the challenge of where does Christ say I am God or where he says worship me, since you require that he say it in those words, I reply to you by asking you where does Christ say I am the Messiah or the Word of God in the Quran, he doesn’t say it, thus since you can now admit that Christ doesn’t need to say it in those specific words, we can now prove where he claimed to be God by his divine claims and actions.

Im did not say anywhere anything about word or messiah myself. He does say he is a Prophet

(Jesus) said, 'Indeed, I am the slave of Allah (God). He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet.'"Quran 19:30

 

[Godistruth1]

I can’t remember the times when you’ve mentioned that on these forums only to get educated on it and then run away. We don’t believe God is three and one in the same respect so your equation of 1+1+1=1 fails, since it’s a strawman argument. God is three in person 1+1+1=3, and one in nature 1x1x1=1. Also since God is infinite you can equally do it as ∞+∞+∞=∞. So again you’ve failed to prove that the trinity contradicts logic. That’s what your Mohammadan scholars say about Qadr, yet you believe in it, so what are you criticizing Christians for?

U fail to understand that what we are doing is counting the number of gods. Im saying to u there are three persons in trinity and as per u all of them are gods. So are they not 3 gods. Even a kid can understand this

That’s not what I said, why do you keep misquoting me and expect to have a normal conversation. I said we can’t fully understand it, I didn’t say we can’t explain it in logical terms or that it contradicts logic, and that question goes back to you how do you believe in Qadr if Islamic scholars classify it as a mystery?

Here is the question that was asked

Do you claim understanding of Trinity?

And your answer was no

He did not ask do u fully understand it or no

I don’t need to all of John 1 is about Christ coming as a salvation to the world.

Yes for his time he was the way for salvation and only for the people of Israel now God sent us another Prophet and people of this era have to believe in him for salvation

 

[Barney2.0]

Because u never proved there is any verse so i gotta repeat my question

I already did and you had no response to the verses. So stop the nonsense.

Im did not say anywhere anything about word or messiah myself. He does say he is a Prophet

(Jesus) said, 'Indeed, I am the slave of Allah (God). He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet.'"Quran 19:30

Ok since you admit that he never said that “I Am the Messiah” or “I Am a Word from Allah” in those specific words, then you agree he doesn’t have to say it in those words, correct? If so, then we can now begin examining the divine claims of Christ.

Here is the question that was asked

And your answer was no

He did not ask do u fully understand it or no

My response:

What is meant by the statement “no one fully understands it,” is that no one knows how its inner workings work logically speaking, or how God has more than one Hypostasis. That said, it doesn’t mean it can’t be explaines logically like the Fathers of the Church have constantly explained

Also if this means it invalidates my position, then by your own logic you’d have to violate your own faith and become a Kaafir by denying Qadr.

Yes for his time he was the way for salvation and only for the people of Israel now God sent us another Prophet and people of this era have to believe in him for salvation

Just a few major problems with that assertion, John 1 describes Christ as the uncreated Word of God that became incarnate and in him there is life and the life is the light of men his time? The text describes Christ as divine and give me one verse where Christ says I’m only sent for this time and another Arab prophet else is coming after me, don’t waste your time trying to find that in the Bible. Also your assertion that Christ was sent only to Israel is only partly correct, that was the first part of his mission however he later commands his disciples to preach to all nations, as we see in Matthew 28:19. Also Christ claims to be salvation, prophets aren’t salvation God is, they point to salvation, they don’t give it, not even your Mohammed claimed that.

 

[Godistruth1]

I already did and you had no response to the verses. So stop the nonsense.

And i already said it could be God informing jesus that he forgive them just like Allah informed Muhammad.

Ok since you admit that he never said that “I Am the Messiah” or “I Am a Word from Allah” in those specific words, then you agree he doesn’t have to say it in those words, correct? If so, then we can now begin examining the divine claims of Christ

Im not quoting this as any proof anywhere.

 

[Barney2.0]

And i already said it could be God informing jesus that he forgive them just like Allah informed Muhammad.

What you proved is the Father and Son both act in unity to forgive sins, nothing else. Please quote me one verse, just one verse from the Quran or Hadith where Mohammed personally said I absolve you of sins. On the contrary Mohammed himself asked to be forgiven of sins:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The best supplication for seeking forgiveness (Syed-ul- Istighfar) is to say: 'Allahumma Anta Rabbi, la ilaha illa Anta, khalaqtani wa ana 'abduka, wa ana 'ala 'ahdika wa wa'dika mastata'tu, a'udhu bika min sharri ma sana'tu, abu'u laka bini'matika 'alayya, wa abu'u bidhanbi faghfir li, fa innahu la yaghfirudh-dhunuba illa Anta. (O Allah! You are my Rubb. There is no true god except You. You have created me, and I am Your slave, and I hold to Your Covenant as far as I can. I seek refuge in You from the evil of what I have done. I acknowledge the favours that You have bestowed upon me, and I confess my sins. Pardon me, for none but You has the power to pardon).' He who supplicates in these terms during the day with firm belief in it and dies on the same day (before the evening), he will be one of the dwellers of Jannah; and if anyone supplicates in these terms during the night with firm belief in it and dies before the morning, he will be one of the dwellers of Jannah."


Sahih Al Bukhari:

Book 20, Hadith 7, Book 20, Hadith 1875

The Book of Forgiveness - Riyad as-Salihin - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Im not quoting this as any proof anywhere.

You asked where does Christ say “I am God” or where he says “worship me,” I’m reversing the question where does he say I’m the Messiah or a Word from Allah in the Quran, you believe these thighs about him, yet he never says it in those words, so do you accept that Christ doesn’t need in those words for him to be the Messiah and Word from Allah?

 

[dzheremi]

See in your case you dont have enough proof even from bible. Most of the proof that are quoted are mostly interpretations

As @Al Masihi has pointed out, there is proof in the Bible itself.

Besides, do you understand your Qur'an without tafsir? Or maybe you are a Qur'anist and reject all hadith, even those that are sahih? If that's not your position (and I will assume it probably isn't, since Qur'anists are a tiny minority), then why would you pretend as though your religion is so much better in this regard? You do not simply naturally understand everything of it or its scripture.

It should also be stated that unlike the relation of the Qur'an and Islam, we can definitively say that the Christian faith precedes the Bible (indeed it would have to, given the content of the texts themselves), so there is nothing to be shied away from in looking to the Fathers to explain whatever scripture, keeping in mind that the Bible is not one unitary book revealed to one person in the span of his own life like the Qur'an. In fact, it wasn't until c. 140s that the Christian Church started putting together a sort of proto-canon, in response to Marcion the heretic's mutilation of the already-received (but not yet canonized) scriptures. And yet some three to four decades before that, in the last years of HH St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. circa 108 AD), we have proof that the Christian Church taught that Jesus Christ is in fact God. Our father writes in his epistle to the Ephesians (c. 106 AD):

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible — even Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes it has clear proof of everything we believe and we dont have ambiguous beliefs that are necessary for being a Muslim.

Oh, okay...that must by why there's only one sect of Islam...

Again you have no clear proof that jesus is God.

Again, the proof is in 2,000 years of Christian witness. The proof is in the eyewitnesses of Christ who told us all within living memory of what they had seen, as St. Mark did to the Egyptians, Sts. Peter and Paul to the Syrians, St. Thomas to the Indians, and so on.

All there is are interpretations.

That's all any religion has, as no religion is self-interpreting.

Im gonna become Christian if u give me one verse in entire bible where jesus says im God or he says worship me.

I can give you many where it is clear that this is what He is saying, but what I can't do is make you understand them properly. Besides, the 'exact words criterion' will cause every religion to fail on some level. Show me anywhere in the Qur'an where it is specifically says "the text of the Holy Bible as the Christians have it today in the 7th century is corrupted" (important to have it in exactly those words, since we have complete Bibles that are even older than that which match what we have today). The Qur'an doesn't say that, so I guess it's not something Muslims should be believing, right? Yet look how many do! (Probably you also believe that, despite the fact that it is not actually testified to in those words in your book.)

This is typical Muslim argumentation, and I won't fall for it. Now I can't remember which one of our great Syrian saints wrote it (I want to say Bar Hebraeus, but I'm not sure), but one of them once gave the criticism of Muslim approaches to Christianity by observing "They demand from us a defense of our religion not from our scriptures, but from those they recognize." This is true, in that I'm sure that when we present what have been clear proofs for 2,000 years to anyone who actually knows the text, they will magically become unacceptable for this or that reason.

 

[Limo]

Are you serious? Read post #118:



Christ doesn’t need the Father’s authority, he already has all authority the Father has, he does what ever he sees the Father doing.


I’m not sure about Mohammadans in the plural, but your definitely dishonest, the fact you have no logical argument against the trinity you resorted to try to misquote my post to make me seem as if I contradicted myself, yet you failed in that regard.

As expected, running in circles
I asked you a simple clear question.
Are the 2 statements I copied from posts #116 and #118 yours or not ?
I leave it to others to decide who is the dishonest?

No, No, and No.


Your quoting Saint Augustine and your misquoting him, the Fathers both before him and after him described the trinity and the relationship between the three persons. What is meant by the statement “no one fully understands it,” is that no one knows how its inner workings work logically speaking, or how God has more than one Hypostasis. That said, it doesn’t mean it can’t be explaines logically like the Fathers of the Church have constantly explained, anyone who willfully denies the trinity like Arius will be damned, that’s correct. Also I’m going to have to burst your bubble here, because your argument equally applies to your own faith, Qadr or divine predestination according to Islamic theologians themselves can’t be argued against using human reason and is an article of faith which must be believed in:

Again, when it comes to discus Trinity Paradox, math addition is not math addition 1+1+1=1
Now you're telling something new
Understanding not equal to understanding.
Any thing we know language syntax and semantics, logic, math, philosophy, science,,,, is not applied with Christian theology.
Why don't tell everyone who's Augustine?
It's said that he's the best person all over churches History explains Trinity.

I reviewed many Christians official website and many books they're quoting Augustine statement without your sourcing and juggling. Very straight forward, we can't understand Trinity by our human brain.
If we ask many Christians who believe in Trinity, they'll answer honestly that they don't understand Trinity. I respect this very well. I tell them, as it's about believe then don't blaim others as you can't explain.

You know very well that Trinity is not biblical, it's a developed philosophy only became final in 381 CE.
Only a one Christianty proto Orthodox out of many Christianities succeed to dominate it's believe.
Even proto Orthodox theologians before 325 CE don't have the same understanding/definition of Trinity finalized in 381 CE.
Even what happened after 381 CE?
The Christians who agreed about Trinity continue splitting into see several Christianities when it comes to the details of Trinity. Questions like when the Devine Jesus merged with the human Jesus before/after birth?
How human and Devine Jesuses were together? Do Devine and human Jesuses having one or two wells ?

That al-qadar is Allaah’s plan for His creation. What He has shown us of it, we know and believe in, and what He has hidden from us, we accept and believe in. We do not dispute with Allaah concerning His actions and rulings with our limited minds and comprehension, rather we believe in Allaah’s complete justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be asked about what He does, may He be glorified and praised.

Belief in al-qadar is the real test of the extent of a person’s belief in Allaah. It is the true test of how much a person really knows about his Lord and what results from this knowledge of certain and sincere faith in Allaah, and His attributes of majesty and perfection. That is because al-qadar raises many questions for the one who gives free rein to his reasoning to try to fully comprehend it. There have been many disputes concerning the issue of al-qadar and many people have engaged in debates and misinterpreted the verses of the Qur’aan that mention it. Indeed, the enemies of Islam in all eras have provoked confusion in the Muslims’ beliefs by discussing the issue of al-qadar and stirring up doubts about it. So no one can have true and certain faith except the one who knows Allaah by His beautiful names and sublime attributes, submitting to His commands with peace of mind and trusting in his Lord. In that case no doubts or specious arguments can find a way into his heart. Undoubtedly this is the greatest proof that belief in al-qadar is more important than belief in the other pillars of faith, and that the human mind cannot independently come to understand al-qadar, because al-qadar is one of the mysteries of Allaah in His creation; whatever Allaah has disclosed to us in His Book or on the lips of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we know, accept and believe in, and whatever our Lord has not told us, we believe in and we believe in His perfect justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

Belief of Ahl al-Sunnah concerning al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar (Divine Will and Decree) - Islam Question & Answer

Your whole argument on the trinity not being able to completely be understood logically falls apart since by that logic you’d also have to reject Al Qadr in Islam and I’d your do that your no longer a Muslim, but a Kaafir. Also something being beyond logic doesn’t make it illogical, I’d also challenge you to find something in the trinity that makes it irrational or contrary to logic, you can’t, it can be explained logically, but it can’t be fully understood in human terms, and unfortunately for you this also exists in your own faith.

Now you're running away.

I leave it to any neutral member to judge, who is dishonest and diceiveing himself ?

 

[dzheremi]

You know very well that Trinity is not biblical, it's a developed philosophy only became final in 381 CE.

Hahaha. You are daft. The Trinity is all over the writings of the fathers from well before the conciliar era. Read some of St. Gregory Thaumaturgus sometime. He died in about 270, so over 100 years before the Council of Constantinople. He writes the following in the dialogue of Christ in one of his homilies on the baptism of Christ:

I am the Lawgiver, and the Son of the Lawgiver; and it becomes me first to pass through all that is established, and then to set forth everywhere the intimations of my free gift. It becomes me to fulfill the law, and then to bestow grace. It becomes me to adduce the shadow, and then the reality. It becomes me to finish the old covenant, and then to dictate the new, and to write it on the hearts of men, and to subscribe it with my blood, and to seal it with my Spirit. It becomes me to ascend the cross, and to be pierced with its nails, and to suffer after the manner of that nature which is capable of suffering, and to heal sufferings by my suffering, and by the tree to cure the wound that was inflicted upon men by the medium of a tree. It becomes me to descend even into the very depths of the grave, on behalf of the dead who are detained there. It becomes me, by my three days' dissolution in the flesh, to destroy the power of the ancient enemy, death. It becomes me to kindle the torch of my body for those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death. It becomes me to ascend in the flesh to that place where I am in my divinity. It becomes me to introduce to the Father the Adam reigning in me. It becomes me to accomplish these things, for on account of these things I have taken my position with the works of my hands. It becomes me to be baptized with this baptism for the present, and afterwards to bestow the baptism of the consubstantial Trinity upon all men.

+++

As to the rest of this extremely ridiculous post of yours, you don't know what you are talking about. Stop reading Bart Ehrman fantasy novels that do nothing but regurgitate the weak and discredited views of Bauer from the 1930s as though they're the cutting edge of research on the Bible and the early Christian Church.

The Christians who agreed about Trinity continue splitting into see several Christianities when it comes to the details of Trinity. Questions like when the Devine Jesus merged with the human Jesus before/after birth?
How human and Devine Jesuses were together? Do Devine and human Jesuses having one or two wells ?

Oh no! You mean there are three major sects of historical Christianity based on their reactions to the theologies of Ephesus and Chalcedon, while still agreeing on the essentials established at Nicaea and Constantinople?

How could a religion EVER be true if there are three major varieties of it?

Really two, as the Nestorians are not doing too great these days in terms of numbers, with well under a million members in total even if you count the Ancient Church of the East breakaway sect, so...

How could a religion EVER be true with TWO major sects of it!?

How, I ask you!

How!

I leave it to any neutral member to judge, who is dishonest and diceiveing himself ?

Always the one who believes in Muhammad, as Muhammad did the work of the deceiver.