Islam Why call Muhammad a prophet?

[Godistruth1]

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:5

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

Luke 7:48

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28

Does not prove ONLY jesus forgives. Even prophet Muhammad on many occasions said to prople that they were forgiven.

 

[dzheremi]

Even prophet Muhammad on many occasions said to prople that they were forgiven.

Then according to the Qur'an, isn't Muhammad guilty of shirk, the one sin that Allah will not forgive?

3:135

وَالَّذينَ إِذا فَعَلوا فاحِشَةً أَو ظَلَموا أَنفُسَهُم ذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ فَاستَغفَروا لِذُنوبِهِم وَمَن يَغفِرُ الذُّنوبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَلَم يُصِرّوا عَلىٰ ما فَعَلوا وَهُم يَعلَمونَ

Asad:
and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.

Khattab:
˹They are˺ those who, upon committing an evil deed or wronging themselves, remember Allah and seek forgiveness and do not knowingly persist in sin—and who forgives sins except Allah?

Malik:
who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done.

Pickthall:
And those who, when they do an evil thing or wrong themselves, remember Allah and implore forgiveness for their sins--Who forgiveth sins save Allah only?--and will not knowingly repeat (the wrong) they did.

Yusuf Ali:
And those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind and ask for forgiveness for their sins and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done

I don't know who Muhammad must think he is to be associating himself with Allah like that...

 

[Godistruth1]

Then according to the Qur'an, isn't Muhammad guilty of shirk, the one sin that Allah will not forgive?

3:135

وَالَّذينَ إِذا فَعَلوا فاحِشَةً أَو ظَلَموا أَنفُسَهُم ذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ فَاستَغفَروا لِذُنوبِهِم وَمَن يَغفِرُ الذُّنوبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَلَم يُصِرّوا عَلىٰ ما فَعَلوا وَهُم يَعلَمونَ

Asad:
and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.

Khattab:
˹They are˺ those who, upon committing an evil deed or wronging themselves, remember Allah and seek forgiveness and do not knowingly persist in sin—and who forgives sins except Allah?

Malik:
who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done.

Pickthall:
And those who, when they do an evil thing or wrong themselves, remember Allah and implore forgiveness for their sins--Who forgiveth sins save Allah only?--and will not knowingly repeat (the wrong) they did.

Yusuf Ali:
And those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind and ask for forgiveness for their sins and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done

I don't know who Muhammad must think he is to be associating himself with Allah like that...

That is exactly what i meant. Muhammad said the the sins were forgiven only after revelation from God. This is the point im making. Jesus could have been informed by his God too.

 

[Barney2.0]

Does not prove ONLY jesus forgives. Even prophet Muhammad on many occasions said to prople that they were forgiven.

No one is saying only Christ forgives, all members of the trinity partake in the forgiveness of sins, Mohammed never forgave sins, Mohammed himself asked Allah to forgive him of sins:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Sometimes I perceive a veil over my heart, and I supplicate Allah for forgiveness a hundred times in a day."

The Book of Forgiveness - Riyad as-Salihin - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

He must have been one sinner to ask forgiveness that many times.

 

[dzheremi]

That is exactly what i meant. Muhammad said the the sins were forgiven only after revelation from God. This is the point im making. Jesus could have been informed by his God too.

Has anyone claimed that Jesus would not have been 'informed' as to who is forgiven? This is not even the point. The point is rather that He Himself can make such a determination, because He is God, not that He is somehow making that pronouncement without knowing whether or not it is true.

Crucially, the people around Jesus at the time understood this to be the case, as in Luke 7:47-49, when Jesus forgives the sinful woman:

Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

+++

This is not the same as asking "Who is this who knows from God whose sins are forgiven?" They recognized Him as doing it Himself. Jesus Christ does the things that only God can do not merely by knowing by revelation in a manner analogous to your Muhammad, but by doing as is according to His divinity, which is the same divinity which is shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Limo]

This was an odd reply, fortunately I won’t have to answer Christ will:
.

You don't have to answer me, you used Christ to answer yourself.
İf you read your 2 comments #116 and #118 to a Christian scholar specialized in early Christianities he would think it's a debate between a proto Orthodox and others.
My friend the 2 comments are contradicting each other.
Regards

 

[dzheremi]

You don't have to answer me, you used Christ to answer yourself.
İf you read your 2 comments #116 and #118 to a Christian scholar specialized in early Christianities he would think it's a debate between a proto Orthodox and others.
My friend the 2 comments are contradicting each other.
Regards

Where do you see the contradiction in the two posts?

 

[Barney2.0]

You don't have to answer me, you used Christ to answer yourself.
İf you read your 2 comments #116 and #118 to a Christian scholar specialized in early Christianities he would think it's a debate between a proto Orthodox and others.
My friend the 2 comments are contradicting each other.
Regards

Post #116:

All members do everything equally in respect to the divine essence. All members of the trinity forgive sins, Christ forgives Sin’s with the Father’s authority by the power of the Holy Spirit so all members of the trinity play a part in the forgiveness of sins.

Post #118:

This was an odd reply, fortunately I won’t have to answer Christ will:

All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

John 16:15

Christ naturally possesses the authority of the Father being begotten of the same essence. He doesn’t need to take authorization every time he forgives sins, he already possess the authority, and the Holy Spirit works in Union with that authority to forgive sins. The works of the Holy Spirit are never separate or apart from other members of the Godhead such as the Father and Son, there has never been a time when the Son or Spirit was without authority since the Son, because the Son was begotten before all creation and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father through the Son. No person of the trinity needs the other, they work in absolute unity with each other, when the Father raises the dead and gives life so do the Son and Holy Spirit. Christ doesn’t take authority from the Father he possesses that authority by nature of being God the Son, the Holy Spirit that eternally proceeds from the essence of the Father acts in unity with the Son and Father, also just as a simple refutation of your argument, you having a boss doesn’t make you less human than your boss. So you have been refuted on the trinity again.

Why are you guys constantly being dishonest, it’s as if your religion pre-programs you to continuously lie, I’ve had it to be honest, your religion is only good at two things lying and forcing itself on others at sword point. Lie after lie after lie, you Mohammadans can lie and deceive yourselves, but not God or Christ.

 

[Godistruth1]

No one is saying only Christ forgives, all members of the trinity partake in the forgiveness of sins, Mohammed never forgave sins, Mohammed himself asked Allah to forgive him of sins:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Sometimes I perceive a veil over my heart, and I supplicate Allah for forgiveness a hundred times in a day."

The Book of Forgiveness - Riyad as-Salihin - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

He must have been one sinner to ask forgiveness that many times.

Already replied in the previous post

That is exactly what i meant. Muhammad said the the sins were forgiven only after revelation from God. This is the point im making. Jesus could have been informed by his God too.

Again you have not proven christ forgives on his own. He prayed to the father and so should we

 

[Godistruth1]

The point is rather that He Himself can make such a determination, because He is God

Now u need to prove this that he forgives on his own

 

[Barney2.0]

Already replied in the previous post

Again you have not proven christ forgives on his own. He prayed to the father and so should we

I responded to you, Mohammed never claimed to forgive sins on his own accord I’m not claiming Christ forgives on his own authority, I’m claiming he forgives sins with the authority shared by all members of the trinity. And Christ never prayed to the Father to forgive himself, also I doubt you accept when Christ says honor me as you honor the Father which would mean we have to worship and glorify him as we worship and glorify the Father.

 

[Godistruth1]

I’m claiming he forgives sins with the authority shared by all members of the trinity

What is the proof again that Christ had any authority in forgiveness?

And Christ never prayed to the Father to forgive himself,

Not saying that. Im saying he did not forgive himself but prayed to father for forgiveness of other people
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Luke 23:33-34

 

[dzheremi]

Now u need to prove this that he forgives on his own

But that is not the claim that I was answering or making to begin with. Again, the charge that I was answering is that Jesus says sins are forgiven only after being 'informed by His God', to use your words (in a manner akin to Muhammad, supposedly). My point is that Jesus is not simply a messenger service, but rather forgives because He is God and it is God's prerogative to forgive sins according to His will, power, and authority, all of which are manifest in Christ because of His sharing of the one divine nature with the Father and Holy Spirit, as three Persons who are One God.

This is why those who were around Him asked "Who is this who even forgives sins?" They knew, just like we know, that it is not in man's authority to forgive sins, yet that is precisely what Jesus did. You will not find the words "on his own" anywhere, as He Himself rightly said that He of His own self can do nothing, because He does not seek His own will but the will of the Father Who sent Him (several times he makes this point in the fifth chapter of the Gospel of St. John). By this we understand that these pronouncements of Christ are not normal exercises of human agency, as a normal man judging some matter according to his finite intellect, but righteous judgments of God. They carry this authority and this character because Christ has this authority and character by virtue of the shared divine nature which is common to all three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Godistruth1]

But that is not the claim that I was answering or making to begin with. Again, the charge that I was answering is that Jesus says sins are forgiven only after being 'informed by His God', to use your words (in a manner akin to Muhammad, supposedly). My point is that Jesus is not simply a messenger service, but rather forgives because He is God and it is God's prerogative to forgive sins according to His will, power, and authority, all of which are manifest in Christ because of His sharing of the one divine nature with the Father and Holy Spirit, as three Persons who are One God.

This is why those who were around Him asked "Who is this who even forgives sins?" They knew, just like we know, that it is not in man's authority to forgive sins, yet that is precisely what Jesus did. You will not find the words "on his own" anywhere, as He Himself rightly said that He of His own self can do nothing, because He does not seek His own will but the will of the Father Who sent Him (several times he makes this point in the fifth chapter of the Gospel of St. John). By this we understand that these pronouncements of Christ are not normal exercises of human agency, as a normal man judging some matter according to his finite intellect, but righteous judgments of God. They carry this authority and this character because Christ has this authority and character by virtue of the shared divine nature which is common to all three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

Can God the father forgive sins without Jesus playing any part?

 

[Barney2.0]

What is the proof again that Christ had any authority in forgiveness?

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:5

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

Luke 7:48

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28

Not saying that. Im saying he did not forgive himself but prayed to father for forgiveness of other people
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Luke 23:33-34

Christ is asking to forgive those who were crucifying him just as he had already forgiven their own sins, in the next few verses we see Christ say to the thief with him on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise because Christ would then descend into Hades along with the thief in which all righteous believers would be saved and cast into Abraham’s blossom as we see in Luke 16, while all those who reject Christ would go to a hellish torment while both await the final resurrection into eternal life or hellish torment. We also see Christ in the Gospel of John look up to the sky and say “it is finished,” which means Christ has completed his mission of salvation by dying and forgiving those who crucified him so even here we see the double act of forgiveness from the Father and Son in union.

 

[Godistruth1]

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:5

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

Luke 7:48

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28

Again this could be God told him. Hes not saying i forgive your sins.

We also see Christ in the Gospel of John look up to the sky and say “it is finished,” which means Christ has completed his mission of salvation by dying and forgiving those who crucified him so even here we see the double act of forgiveness from the Father and Son in union.

I can make so make interpretations to this

 

[Barney2.0]

Again this could be God told him. Hes not saying i forgive your sins.

It also could not be, why not just take the text, it’s overall context, and the theology it represents as it is? He doesn’t need to say “I forgive your sins,” he heals the sick and forgives them of their transgressions, he’s the one doing it.

I can make so make interpretations to this

This isn’t a simple interpretation, this is what the text is actually saying and implying in its historical and theological context.

 

[dzheremi]

Can God the father forgive sins without Jesus playing any part?

Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the eternal word/wisdom of God (Logos means both word and wisdom), and we would say that God is never without His word/His wisdom. So the question does not make sense as asked. "Can God forgive without His wisdom playing any part?" is not a question that makes sense to ask about God, because that assumes that God forgives without having any divine sense of what He Himself is doing or why. That is not the case, even if we humans do not always understand His ways or His thoughts.

The closest possible analogue I can think of in Islam, while admittedly imperfect, is the status of the Qur'an, which as I understand it is considered by Muslims to preexist its revelation to Muhammad. So since it is with God already, if someone was to ask you if Muhammad was really necessary for it to exist, you'd probably consider the question malformed, as it does not take into account the preexistent nature of the speech (the Qur'an being God's speech, correct?). And yet, if Muhammad (or say, any human) is not involved, so it never gets revealed in the form you have now known as the Qur'an, then how do you know anything of it in the first place? Sure, you could say "Well, humans are naturally inclined to submission to God, so we would still have the pre-Islamic prophets and hanifs to show us the right way to whatever degree", but those things are not the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a specific revelation (or rather, a series of them) given to Muhammad, not to other people at other times. There are reasons why Islam exists as its own religion separate from Judaism, Christianity, Sabianism, etc., and it is not respectful to the history of the belief to treat things as though they are somehow interchangeable just because they could have gone differently in some other world than the one that actually exists, where Muhammad did claim to receive such revelations, and those revelations were eventually collected into the text of the Qur'an.

So could God the Father forgive without the incarnate Jesus having ever walked the earth (which I suspect is how you meant that question)? I should hope so, as He forgave the sins of the Ninevites in the time of Jonah after accepting their repentance and fasting, to use but one example from the Old Testament. It's not like that didn't happen just because Jesus was not incarnate at that time. But remember what I wrote at the beginning of this post: this does not mean that the wisdom of the God was somehow not involved.

What Al Masihi has been posting about the cooperation of the Persons of the Holy Trinity in the redemption of man (including obviously the forgiveness of sins) is correct. The Persons of the Holy Trinity do not act in isolation from one another, but cooperatively. This has to do with their internal relation to one another, which is eternally present because God is eternal (the Son and the Holy Spirit were not 'added later', but have always been God). God's revelation to man is a somewhat different topic, since it is inherently occurring within time, as humanity invented time and exists within time and space.

 

[Godistruth1]

It also could not be, why not just take the text, it’s overall context, and the theology it represents as it is? He doesn’t need to say “I forgive your sins,” he heals the sick and forgives them of their transgressions, he’s the one doing it.


This isn’t a simple interpretation, this is what the text is actually saying and implying in its historical and theological context.

Lets agree to disagree. There is no concrete proof that only jesus has the authority to forgive. The father can forgive if we pray to him as jesus prayed

 

[Godistruth1]

Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the eternal word/wisdom of God (Logos means both word and wisdom), and we would say that God is never without His word/His wisdom. So the question does not make sense as asked. "Can God forgive without His wisdom playing any part?" is not a question that makes sense to ask about God, because that assumes that God forgives without having any divine sense of what He Himself is doing or why. That is not the case, even if we humans do not always understand His ways or His thoughts.

The closest possible analogue I can think of in Islam, while admittedly imperfect, is the status of the Qur'an, which as I understand it is considered by Muslims to preexist its revelation to Muhammad. So since it is with God already, if someone was to ask you if Muhammad was really necessary for it to exist, you'd probably consider the question malformed, as it does not take into account the preexistent nature of the speech (the Qur'an being God's speech, correct?). And yet, if Muhammad (or say, any human) is not involved, so it never gets revealed in the form you have now known as the Qur'an, then how do you know anything of it in the first place? Sure, you could say "Well, humans are naturally inclined to submission to God, so we would still have the pre-Islamic prophets and hanifs to show us the right way to whatever degree", but those things are not the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a specific revelation (or rather, a series of them) given to Muhammad, not to other people at other times. There are reasons why Islam exists as its own religion separate from Judaism, Christianity, Sabianism, etc., and it is not respectful to the history of the belief to treat things as though they are somehow interchangeable just because they could have gone differently in some other world than the one that actually exists, where Muhammad did claim to receive such revelations, and those revelations were eventually collected into the text of the Qur'an.

So could God the Father forgive without the incarnate Jesus having ever walked the earth (which I suspect is how you meant that question)? I should hope so, as He forgave the sins of the Ninevites in the time of Jonah after accepting their repentance and fasting, to use but one example from the Old Testament. It's not like that didn't happen just because Jesus was not incarnate at that time. But remember what I wrote at the beginning of this post: this does not mean that the wisdom of the God was somehow not involved.

What Al Masihi has been posting about the cooperation of the Persons of the Holy Trinity in the redemption of man (including obviously the forgiveness of sins) is correct. The Persons of the Holy Trinity do not act in isolation from one another, but cooperatively. This has to do with their internal relation to one another, which is eternally present because God is eternal (the Son and the Holy Spirit were not 'added later', but have always been God). God's revelation to man is a somewhat different topic, since it is inherently occurring within time, as humanity invented time and exists within time and space.

God has always conveyed his message to mankind through prophets. God logically does need prophets in the sense that he can directly convey his message but that is how God chose to deliver his message. Here u have no proof that jesus is the only way to salvation and forgiveness