Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?

drich0150 · Jun 15, 2011

pocaracas said:
How do you know that?

The bi-ble, tells me sooo.

Perhaps it's because he doesn't?

A statement of faith, much like this one: "Perhaps He does!"

Indeed, but it's the only one we know of.

Does that make it the only one?

Quoting Carl Sagan(who was quoting someone else, but I forgot who... nothing like google to remember things:Thomas Carlyle): If we are alone in the Universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space.

Again, how do you know that?

And I will use a quote to answer this. "fa-da, tea-chi" (Mr. Me-au-gi)

How wave you come across that piece of knowledge?

Because: "the bi-ble, tells me sooo!"

yes ok.... but they, supposedly, knew about him. They didn't have to believe. They had direct contact, right?

Yes.

You know him?? REALY??!?!

Really! Really! (Shrek)

AMAZING!!!
You're the person I was looking for!
How did you get to know him?

I followed the outline in Luke 11

What is he like?

He is described very accurately in the bible.

Like what all other christians think? or is he more like what the Hindus think? or like what the Vikings thought?

I really don't know for sure what all of these other people think , nor do I know for sure what you think, they think. so i can not give you an accurate answer.

I seek this knowledge. But I refuse to believe in order to know.... that's stupid!

If a treasure is buried in a remote Caribbean Island and you have a map/Complete instructions, where exactly to find this treasure, is it stupid to start digging where the map tells you to dig? Or is it better to "seek" where you feel comfortable seeking, and disregard the map?
Where I am from it is stupid to seek something in a place where one is assured not to find it. (But I guess yall do it differently in the "South.")

Again, "the plan". How do you know about this plan?

It's called the bible.

How does that work with people who are born in other cultures?
(I seem to be stuck asking the same questions... )

The same. why wouldn't work for them? (The answer to you next statement: "So?")

So you think that just because someone found an old copy of a story, it means the story is true?

Yes!

I'm talking about what happened before... long before the story was written. The first people, those who didn't even have a writing system.

Again if "we were telling tales" then why should they stop when they were first recorded?

You seem to confuse observation and measurement, or experimentation, with faith.

You seem to confuse the belief in that one is measuring the correct distance, or the belief that one is observing all possible data from a singular perspective, or that one's conclusion from an experiment is indeed interpreted correctly. I am not doubting the "science." I am merely point out your Faith in the "facts."

I'm not taking the word of any person who I think is smarter than me. I've performed some of those experiments and I can see that where they point.

Oooo a sore spot. Look, smarty, Even if what you say is true, their is no way you have performed ALL of the experiments, or made all of the discoveries, or made all of the observations that have been made to come to the conclusions you have. At some point you have deferred to "someone smarter than you." More than likely way, way smarter. It is in this deferral that you take on the role of a "Faith wielding believer." (like it or not.)

Surely, you've heard a car passing by you. As it comes towards you, you hear a higher frequency sound from the engine. As it goes away from you, you hear a lower frequency sound from the same engine. But the engine is always sending out the same sound. What happens is an effect which was coined by first described by a guy named Doppler... so it was called the "Doppler Effect". This effect can be found in any kind of wave phenomena.
And one such phenomena is light.

In the "DoPpLeR EfFeCt" this distortion you "hear" is effect by the distance the one is from the Event. Now how pray tell can "we" from one single point in space a trillion billion miles from our second nearest light source( let alone the ones we are looking at to make these leaps in "science) can we be sure that light waves and frequency are not effected in a way as to throw our equations off, (even just a little) over such a great distance?

Gravity effects light does it not? Even if one can be sure (Some how) that in a 100 trillion billion mile line of sight can be established, and by some miracle one can say with absolute certainty that light "DoPpLeR eFfEcT" will not degrade (Even the tiniest amount) over the sheer distance that we are making our observations from. There is no way to know if in that 100 trillion billion mile line of sight there is not some gravitational event (maybe even unknown) effecting your "observation or measurement" in some slight way, thus throwing your numbers far from the truth.

People like you remind me of those who claimed the world was flat. They take one single human perspective (In that case the assumption that the ground is flat= the world being flat) and role with it, because it is the "popular" way to think. Here you all have over looked common sense to "believe" in such a way to make a bible believing Christian blush.

Here in your example, It just so happens that your thought is all based on one tiny point in space. From which you claim knowledge of how the entire universe was built and maintained.. And! some how you do not see the "Faith" in it all.

After determining the light spectrum from a special kind of star, another scientist, pointed his telescope and spectrometer to other galaxies. What he found was what has been called the "redshift", or light from these stars reaches us but it's frequency components are all shifted towards the red part of the spectrum, or to lower frequencies. This means that these galaxies are actually moving away from our. Just so you know, this scientist was Edwin Hubble. He charted a few tens of such galaxies and all were moving away. And what's more: the farther away they were, the faster they were moving, the more pronounced the redshift was.
This is completely compatible with galaxies moving isotropically (spherically) away from a central point.
So, if galaxies are moving away from a central point... moving way back in time, they must have been all clumped together.
From this, the big bang theory was born. It wasn't a perfect theory, but it's explained by evidence.
The curious thing is that more astronomers have been looking at the sky and they have confirmed what Hubble did and then some.

See? some observation, some experimentation, some reasoning.... and things make sense. No faith required. No super intelligent men required. If Hubble did these experiments in the early 20th Century, then even you could do them with a toy telescope, a prism and a webcam. You'd just need to know what to look for.

So tell me again how the world is flat..

So you claim the evolution of the species is just a theory?

Indeed.

Would you agree that it can merit a high probability of being correct?

It is a theory like any other before it. It's "probability" is only as certain as the available evidence and interpretation of said evidence.

What's the alternative?

Does it matter? No matter the alternative the same type of faith is used to believe in it.

How do you explain bacteria that become immune to antibiotics?

You have confused the type of argument we are engaged in. I am not here to say one is correct and another is wrong. I am here pointing at the faith in all of them.

How do you explain that all animals with interior skeleton are similar? Same bone placement, same back structure, same ribcage... only a few differences to account for different habitats, different strategies to stay alive.

So, all pre-human skulls ever found were tiny bone fragments that had to pieced together?
How on earth did paleontologists ever managed to piece together a T-rex?
It takes no faith at all to look at a complete skull and see that it belonged to some ape-like animal, but had more cranial volume than any present-day non-human primate. It must have logically belonged to a pre-human primate, or hominid. Of course, things don't work out quite so simply, that's why there were Neanderthal's and other hominids that, (notice this) probably, didn't evolve and went extinct.

You might want to rethink your argument alittle to fit what is actually being addressed.

I just did a google search and the only place such scrolls ever come up is in a game. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction, so I can know what you're talking about?

The Dead Sea Scrolls

It makes sense if you accept evolution as the driving force towards present-day living species. It's a theory that makes sense and is compatible with evidence - evidence from the fossil record and circumstantial evidence from the observation of how the same species of animal is differently adapted to different environments... even in humans!

Whether it makes sense or not is not the issue. It is only one of many possible interpretations of the data. Because of this your "belief" in a specific interpretation of those facts comes down to a matter of faith.. Just like when the world was flat. (It is easy to believe now because all of your peers also believe as you do.)

oi_antz · Jun 15, 2011

pocaracas said:
So.... how did you find out about that being to want to know him?
What about all the people who are born in a different culture and are simply not taught about your god? They seek other gods and some also claim to find them. How does that work?

I don't properly understand your question, could you please clarify what you are asking?

Omar.08 · Jun 15, 2011

pocaracas said:
Ever since I was born, people have told me that there exists this being of such ultimate power, knowledge and love that he can do whatever he wishes, he can know what we think, he can act upon the sub-microscopic world and perform magic, the real kind!
This being then created this universe we live in.... the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the moons. On this particular planet, he chose to bestow the greatest gift: life.
Dinosaurs and other long extinct animals apart, he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

These first people had, naturally, knowledge of such being. He was their instructor. They then went on to pass this knowledge to their offspring, who then passed it to their offspring... and so on and so forth until today.
So, when we "believe", we are actually believing what these people have been telling us.
Why can't that being just let all of us know that he is there and waiting for him? Why does he rely on measly humans to carry on his original ideas and teachings? I mean, he should know the old saying: he who tells a tale, adds a tail.
How can anyone guarantee that what happened so long ago was really what people now claim?

Lets look at this from the other side.
What do we now know?
We know we are here, on this planet, on this solar system, on this galaxy, on this Universe. We know the Universe is vast and its mass is similar to what can be found here: hydrogen, helium and the other elements of our periodic table, but mainly those two which are present in stars.
We know that, on this planet, life sparked. How exactly? We don't know. Some people believe in some theories, other believe in other theories and others just plainly say: I don't know.
Life sparked and evolved. Cells gathered to make larger, more resilient organisms; these changed their appearance in order to adapt to the environment, dinosaurs came and went, just as lots of other animal species. Some survived, the better equipped to handle the ever-changing environment. Eventually, hominids came by and one branch led to modern humans.
It is safe to claim that, originally, these hominids had no notion, no concept of divinity. At some stage, then, they must have acquired it. How? I see two options:
1 - a divinity (or more than one?) actually appeared to them and taught them all they needed about the non-corporeal(spirit) world.
2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc.

Again, in case my guess Number 1 is right, why would this divinity only make it self known to the first people and not to every single one? why would such a being rely on humans to carry that message? Knowing, beforehand, that they would most likely foul it up and then segregate and generate conflicts among them... why?

On the other hand, if my guess Number 2 is correct, it all makes perfect sense. No divinity exists. People simply believe it does because some came up with the concept and others picked it up. When they realized the power such a concept could convey over simple and ignorant people, they managed to spread it make people believe and believe and believe. Never knowing.

I'm sorry for the wall of text. It's an idea I've been having inside for a while and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

We need to believe

drich0150 · Jun 15, 2011

oi_antz said:
Utter garbage. Read what Jesus says:

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

I'm only here to give you one very plain message VB, Paul says it well in Romans 6:16

16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

It's not up to me to "convince" you of what God has already said, it is up to you to seek your own assurance that you will stand acquitted on the great day when you come to face Jesus. From what you've described to me, it seems as though your divorce from Jesus has been due to an over-exposure to false teaching. Well I don't think you can blame your mother for whatever chip you have on your shoulder, maybe you can, only you know the answer to that, and it comes down to whether you obey Jesus or whether you prefer to commit sin.

Oi:

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

Biker for Christ said:
It was in Gods plan from the beginning that Satan and God would have this on going rivalry as depicted in Job 1:6-12 It is a test from God that establishes the need for faith and believing in God which makes him happy.
[...]

You are aware that this was written by a man, meant for other men to read and, hopefully, follow?
It doesn't mean that it's true or that it really happened.

I once read a story... and I've come to find it's from a very old book, over 100 years old!... and the story claimed that there were 3 little pigs building houses to protect themselves from the big bad wolf.... I think you probably know which story I mean. Just because it is written, does it make it real?

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

drich0150 said:
The bi-ble, tells me sooo.

A book? you read about this being in a book and then just assumed this book is correct?

A statement of faith, much like this one: "Perhaps He does!"

Let me rephrase this without any faith involved: in all likelihood, according to factual data, he doesn't manipulate the natural world. The natural world seems to have a set of rules and it always follows them.

Does that make it the only one?

No it doesn't. It depends on who you ask, but if you assign some level of probability to life to spark on a given planet, then you can find that there is at least one planet with life per galaxy.... or 10 or 0.1.... But, considering there are some 10^6 galaxies out there, there is a somewhat high likelihood that there is at least one other planet with life.

And I will use a quote to answer this. "fa-da, tea-chi" (Mr. Me-au-gi)

Your father taught you. Well then, how did he came across the information regarding the "plan"?

Because: "the bi-ble, tells me sooo!"

I followed the outline in Luke 11

He is described very accurately in the bible.

yeah! again, the book.
There is an even older book about life and death, but it cliams there are gods with a man-like body and animal-like heads. It was famous around the river Nile, Egypt for some 4000 years. And people believed in what that book said. Do you also believe it?

If a treasure is buried in a remote Caribbean Island and you have a map/Complete instructions, where exactly to find this treasure, is it stupid to start digging where the map tells you to dig? Or is it better to "seek" where you feel comfortable seeking, and disregard the map?
Where I am from it is stupid to seek something in a place where one is assured not to find it. (But I guess yall do it differently in the "South.")

I wouldn't go to that island unless I was sure about the authenticity of the map. I don't know about you, but going to the Caribbean is a costly undertaking for me.

It's called the bible.

So, you got your info from the book. Have you ever read it? how do you fit the Old testament with the new one?
It looks like "the plan" changed from one to the other.

Again if "we were telling tales" then why should they stop when they were first recorded?

Because you can't be sure of the validity of the stories prior to that.... even the ones currently written can be complete fiction and still draw a huge crowd of believers, just look at scientology: Scientology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You seem to confuse the belief in that one is measuring the correct distance, or the belief that one is observing all possible data from a singular perspective, or that one's conclusion from an experiment is indeed interpreted correctly. I am not doubting the "science." I am merely point out your Faith in the "facts."

So your claim is... as far as we know, we could in the matrix. Our brains could be in jars, being excited be external stimuli which would "feel" just as we do feel reality, right?
And it's faith that keeps any person believing that they are not brains in jars, but actual people, whose primary "sensors" are in their own bodies?
It's a possibility, but why would any being do that? (battery power, like the matrix?! LOL). I, and I think most of the scientific community, attribute a very low probability to that possibility.

Oooo a sore spot. Look, smarty, Even if what you say is true, their is no way you have performed ALL of the experiments, or made all of the discoveries, or made all of the observations that have been made to come to the conclusions you have. At some point you have deferred to "someone smarter than you." More than likely way, way smarter. It is in this deferral that you take on the role of a "Faith wielding believer." (like it or not.)

ok, there are people working at CERN who perform experiments far beyond my ability. When one of them claims to have found a new particle, it is only recognized as such after extensive review by other scientists in the same field.
And yes, I have to take their word for it, but they do explain what and how they did to arrive at their results. So, given the same funding and machines, I would be able to arrive at the same results.
That's the main difference between believing scientists and believing in other people who claim there is a supreme being, thus believing that this supreme being exists.

In the "DoPpLeR EfFeCt" this distortion you "hear" is effect by the distance the one is from the Event.

Actually, it's an effect from the velocity between the two bodies.

Now how pray tell can "we" from one single point in space a trillion billion miles from our second nearest light source( let alone the ones we are looking at to make these leaps in "science) can we be sure that light waves and frequency are not effected in a way as to throw our equations off, (even just a little) over such a great distance?

Gravity effects light does it not? Even if one can be sure (Some how) that in a 100 trillion billion mile line of sight can be established, and by some miracle one can say with absolute certainty that light "DoPpLeR eFfEcT" will not degrade (Even the tiniest amount) over the sheer distance that we are making our observations from. There is no way to know if in that 100 trillion billion mile line of sight there is not some gravitational event (maybe even unknown) effecting your "observation or measurement" in some slight way, thus throwing your numbers far from the truth.

People like you remind me of those who claimed the world was flat. They take one single human perspective (In that case the assumption that the ground is flat= the world being flat) and role with it, because it is the "popular" way to think. Here you all have over looked common sense to "believe" in such a way to make a bible believing Christian blush.

Here in your example, It just so happens that your thought is all based on one tiny point in space. From which you claim knowledge of how the entire universe was built and maintained.. And! some how you do not see the "Faith" in it all.

yes, of course, something like that could have distorted the measurements. But what is the likelihood of the same effect distorting all such measurements ever made? remember, there are galaxies spread spherically around our own. Several observations were made pointing the telescopes at many, many galaxies in all directions. Not just one, as you're assuming.

people like you remind me of those who claimed the Earth was at the center of the Universe...

So tell me again how the world is flat..

So tell me again how the Earth is in the middle of everything?

It is a theory like any other before it. It's "probability" is only as certain as the available evidence and interpretation of said evidence.

So what do you think about the available evidence which supports the theory of evolution?
Do you think people just made it up?

Does it matter? No matter the alternative the same type of faith is used to believe in it.

No, any alternative must be confronted with the evidence.
It's just like quantum theory. At the beginning, it sounded like a whole lot of bollocks. Then, people piled up enough evidence to support it. Now, without it, your computer wouldn't work... or would require a whole building to house all the transistors.
Now, we even have some new theories: string theory (many of them). So far, they haven't explained anything worthy, but who knows about the future?

You have confused the type of argument we are engaged in. I am not here to say one is correct and another is wrong. I am here pointing at the faith in all of them.

And I'm saying it's not about faith. It's about probability. If the evidence backs it up, then there is a good chance the theory is correct. We then trust that theory and work based on that trust. If it fails, even once, it must be reworked to accommodate that failure. Theory of evolution of theories!

The Dead Sea Scrolls

Very old copies of some texts... Does that make their content true?

What do you make of all the texts found in the Library of King Ashurbanipal: http://archaeology.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=archaeology&cdn=education&tm=35&f=10&tt=13&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//web.utk.edu/~giles/

They show a great account of an alternate version of Noah's ark... which is true? which happened for real(if any)?

Whether it makes sense or not is not the issue. It is only one of many possible interpretations of the data. Because of this your "belief" in a specific interpretation of those facts comes down to a matter of faith.. Just like when the world was flat. (It is easy to believe now because all of your peers also believe as you do.)

I told you before, and here it goes again: it's not faith. It's a high probability of being correct, backed by evidence.
The other interpretations just lack that probability of being correct.

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
I don't properly understand your question, could you please clarify what you are asking?

I'm asking how did you yourself acquire the concept of "divine being" or "god"?
And the other people, from other cultures who are simply not taught about the same divinities. They can's seek the same god. Are they hopelessly doomed?
Or are they right and you're wrong and you are the one who will be punished by their gods?
Or you're all wrong and I'm right and all gods were made up by humans in the first place?

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
Utter garbage. Read what Jesus says:

Dis Jesus really say that?
Or is that what some people, many years later, wrote that he said?

I once read that there were 3 little pigs that said "who's afraid of the big bad wolf"... But I think there were no such pigs. What do you think?

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

Omar.08 said:
We need to believe

kudos for the best honest answer.
But not all of us seem to need that belief.

When we are young, we essentially believe everything the adults tell us. It's a trait we picked up because we don't know, from the start, what to eat, where to step and other things useful for our survival. We just believe it when adults tell us to eat this, not that, never step here, etc... and the part where "there is an invisible "man" who sees all and knows all.... and if you behave, you get to meet him, after you die.

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
The evidence is in black and white. It is called the Bible. I can see from your attitude that you don't understand it properly. I hope I can help you with that sometime.

The bible is evidence?
Yes, in a way... it is evidence that people have been believing this same thing for well over 2000 years, counting the jews as believers in the same god...
But it is in no way evidence of the actual existence of said god.
No more than the Grimm's fairy tales are evidence of the existence of magic, talking pigs, wolves or whatever else is in there that doesn't exist.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
I'm asking how did you yourself acquire the concept of "divine being" or "god"?
And the other people, from other cultures who are simply not taught about the same divinities. They can's seek the same god. Are they hopelessly doomed?
Or are they right and you're wrong and you are the one who will be punished by their gods?
Or you're all wrong and I'm right and all gods were made up by humans in the first place?

No, God just makes sense. I'm a programmer, there is a logical flaw in thinking that intelligence can exist without intelligence first existing.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
Dis Jesus really say that?
Or is that what some people, many years later, wrote that he said?

I once read that there were 3 little pigs that said "who's afraid of the big bad wolf"... But I think there were no such pigs. What do you think?

I think you need to take the matter seriously, ideally as seriously as His disciples do. Unless, of course, you enjoy being wrong.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
The bible is evidence?
Yes, in a way... it is evidence that people have been believing this same thing for well over 2000 years, counting the jews as believers in the same god...
But it is in no way evidence of the actual existence of said god.
No more than the Grimm's fairy tales are evidence of the existence of magic, talking pigs, wolves or whatever else is in there that doesn't exist.

Actually, it is evidence of what happened approximately 2,000 years ago and events leading up to that.

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
No, God just makes sense. I'm a programmer, there is a logical flaw in thinking that intelligence can exist without intelligence first existing.

You are aware that if intelligence cannot exist without prior intelligence, then there can never be any intelligence.

And why can there be no intelligence without intelligence first existing?
Just because that's the way computers work, it doesn't mean that's the way Nature works.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
You are aware that if intelligence cannot exist without prior intelligence, then there can never be any intelligence.

And why can there be no intelligence without intelligence first existing?
Just because that's the way computers work, it doesn't mean that's the way Nature works.

I don't actually know, it just makes no sense to think that God doesn't exist.

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
I think you need to take the matter seriously, ideally as seriously as His disciples do. Unless, of course, you enjoy being wrong.

I enjoy being wrong as much as everyone else, I guess.
That's why I just keep asking "why" and "how"...

oi_antz said:
Actually, it is evidence of what happened approximately 2,000 years ago and events leading up to that.

You are aware that the new testament was written, at best, around the year 100 ad.
We're talking about over 50 years of oral tale telling. 50 years of "enhancing" the story, possibly, probably. I can't be sure of it, of course, but there is a high likelihood that the so called miracles were later additions to gather more people into that faith.
But the idea behind it is awesome.... and was only properly picked up over 1900 years later, in the 1960's... peace and love, man!
Coming from a time and place where all religions fight each other for dominance, that was an amazing point of view and I can see why that point of view gathered so many followers.
But the story had to outgrow its origins, or else it would just end, like the 70's ended.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
I enjoy being wrong as much as everyone else, I guess.
That's why I just keep asking "why" and "how"...

You are aware that the new testament was written, at best, around the year 100 ad.
We're talking about over 50 years of oral tale telling. 50 years of "enhancing" the story, possibly, probably. I can't be sure of it, of course, but there is a high likelihood that the so called miracles were later additions to gather more people into that faith.
But the idea behind it is awesome.... and was only properly picked up over 1900 years later, in the 1960's... peace and love, man!
Coming from a time and place where all religions fight each other for dominance, that was an amazing point of view and I can see why that point of view gathered so many followers.
But the story had to outgrow its origins, or else it would just end, like the 70's ended.

That's a heft accusation against people who have died for the sake of "truth". Do you have any evidence or are these your own theories?

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
I don't actually know, it just makes no sense to think that God doesn't exist.

Well, it makes complete sense to me.
As far as I'm aware, god isn't really needed for anything.

oi_antz · Jun 16, 2011

pocaracas said:
Well, it makes complete sense to me.
As far as I'm aware, god isn't really needed for anything.

Doesn't matter if He is "needed" or not! You can't change reality simply by changing your beliefs so you are completely barking up the wrong tree there.

pocaracas · Jun 16, 2011

oi_antz said:
That's a heft accusation against people who have died for the sake of "truth". Do you have any evidence or are these your own theories?

Just observation of human nature and a LOT of extrapolation.
See what happened not very long ago with no unnatural causes:
Cargo cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And of course they're my own views. Does anyone have any evidence of what really happened 2000 years ago?
You have to accept that it's possible the gospels are not accurate accounts of the events that really happened.

Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?

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