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Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by brightlights, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Kindly said, as a fellow who shares in the Apostolic Faith....it would be a three-pointer had Rome not added things to the Apostolic Faith and made it heterodox. There is no basis for:

    1. The filioque clause.
    2. The Immaculate Conception
    3. Papal Infallibility
    4. Indulgences
    5. Purgatory
    6. Numerous other ecclesiastical practices which do not accord with the original faith of the Fathers.

    You may find them here https://www.svots.edu/content/roman-presidency-and-christian-unity-our-time
     
  2. celticpiping

    celticpiping New Member

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    "The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability.""

    "bible Christians"
    oh that's so cute...

    You perhaps ought to review your own denominations teachings, because sadly, you're 100% wrong on ex cathedra...
    it's firmly established in your own Catholic doctrines..

    Most of your stated theology is completely extra-extra-biblical, and outside of that which was demonstrated for us by Christ Himself, and His apostles.
    But you keep on keepin on sir...

    How about we agree to disagree?
    I suggest we call it a truce, and each go his own way.
     
  3. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    "..by devaluing and ignoring the authority.."
    absolutely astounding how an entire religion was founded on 1 verse about a rock...

    Christ is all in all.
    Christ is the head of His church: now, and always.


    Your statement here is pretty much the foundation of all Protestantism. In it, you ignore the fact that Christ gave authority to the Apostles to rule the Church for the good of all, not as dictators, but in love.

    But I will let a Protestant speak here, for despite his Protestant blindness to the truth of what he says, he speaks the truth:

    The representative hierarchy renders judgments (Deut. 1:9-18). We can even go so far as to say that it mediates the covenant. By rendering its decisions, the Bible is applied in a practical way to God's people. Life is mediated to them through Judgment. We should understand, however, that this mediation takes place on two levels. There is mediation with a capital M, and there is lower case mediation that grows out of this. The first is redemption, "messianic"; it brings salvation. Moses and all the redemptive deliverers of the Bible (judges, prophets, priests, David, Solomon, etc.) mediated life to Israel with a capital M. The ultimate Mediator, however, is Jesus. Yet in Deuteronomy, there are also lower case mediators who administrate the covenant. They serve a judicial purpose, and fall into two categories. In one sense, the whole body of believers, general mediators of the covenant, is a representative of God (Exod. 19:6). So everyone in the covenant community can go directly to Him. But God appoints special overseers, like the ones in Deuteronomy 1:9-18. They have a special anointing to render judgment. This is how God manifests His transcendence. He has Mediators who bring the message of salvation, and they in turn have representatives, general and special, who rule under them. This creates God's visible sovereignty on the earth, making submission or accountability extremely important.


    (I find his statement in red sadly ironic in that he as a Protestant is not submitted to the authority which Christ gave to the bishops of the Church through the Apostles. This is what I mean when I say that this man is "blind to what he wrote.")

    Notice the progression from transcendence to hierarchy in this passage. Christ is raised and seated in heaven, and then His authority is planted on earth. The Lord declares Christ's transcendence, and then establishes Christ's visible sovereignty through the rule of His people as His authority. There is no escape from the principle of man's God-given mediatory authority. If God's authorities do not rule, neither does He, in the sense of a public manifestation of authority. He manifests visible sovereignty through the visible authority of those who are in visible covenant to Him.

    Again, this is the whole point. Christ established his visible authority by giving His authority to the Apostles. To disobey them was to shake your fist in His face, not theirs. The same example can be found with Moses. Dathan and Abihu found out the hard way that Moses was not just a mere man. He stood for God, and to oppose him was to oppose God. Not good form, as they found out while sinking into the ground that had opened up underneath them.


    "If you are not a member of the Church, then your words here are pretty much fluff and air."
    I attend a church
    , yes

    I didn't say "a" church. I said, "THE" Church, as in the one that our Lord established. He only established one Church, with the Apostles as the overseers of that congregation.

    I've heard covenant theology from a 'reformed' fellow, and it sounded just as much of a rech as this does, in trying to establish some new doctrine..

    The word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Sacred Scriptures. Jesus said "This is the New Covenant in my Blood." To an intelligent person, the appearance of a continuous theme in a writing would be a red flag to not only take note of that theme, but to delve deeply into it to understand it.
     
  4. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    In other words, you don't wish to actually learn anything, you are looking for some sap of a Catholic who doesn't know his faith and is easy pickin's for conversion.

    And I have every right to say this inasmuch as I was a hard-head just like you 18 years ago, a Protestant myself who thought I knew everything about the Bible and the Christian religion. Wouldn't listen to anyone. Then I ran into some very well-catechized Catholics who showed me just how wrong I was.

    1. I didn't know Church history. For me, Christianity started in 1517.

    2. I didn't know ANY of the Church Fathers, such as St. Iranaeus or St. Ignatius. Yet these were the very men who defended Christian orthodoxy against pagans and heretics so that I could believe rightly in Christ.

    3. I didn't know what they wrote.

    4. I didn't know that the Protestant Reformers twisted the Greek in the Scriptures to suit their purposes, being completely dishonest with certain passages and even removing books from the Bible that didn't suit their tastes.

    5. I didn't know the Covenant of God, the most mentioned of events in the Scripture and the basis of much of the worship in the OT and NT.

    In short, I didn't know Jack about anything, yet I fancied myself a great theologian to whom all should listen.

    I see myself in you.

    Have a nice day.
     
  5. rstrats

    rstrats Senior Member

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    wilts43,
    re: "Sola Scriptura is contradicted by scripture, but it serves as a ring-fence to those who refuse to be subject to authority."



    The trick, however, is determining who, if anyone, has the authority.

    BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #355.
     
  6. Sine Nomine

    Sine Nomine Scientist and Christian

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    Some documentable support for you position that the Reformers believed their interpretation to be infallible would be helpful. Semper reformanda (always reforming) is frequently overlooked. Also, where does Scripture contradict Sola Scriptura?

    An infallible understanding/interpretation is NOT required to possess an infallible truth. Something can be perfectly true without you (or anyone) understanding it properly or fully. One can also be led in to all truth without being the holder or the arbiter of that truth. This is particularly true if Truth is not a "fact", but rather a Person. I assume that you believe that you have been led into Christ, if so, you have been led into all truth. A great high priest that knows my weakness and can intercede on my behalf is more important than a priest ordained in apostolic succession. But that is not the point of the OP.
     
  7. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    This utter tripe just lowered the holy spirit to the base level of a beast.

    When God spoke and by his word the heavens and the earth were created..did he have sex with it to make it be? This is how disgustingly base a concept you introduce .
    God spoke and by his power (authority ) his word became flesh in the womb of Mary. ( why mary? Because she was of the tribe of Judah betrothed to Joseph of the line of david. No other reason ..if Jenny jane or karen we betrothed to joseph.they would have been chosen.)

    On top of that the Lord tells Joseph don't be afraid to take her as your wife...by your ridiculous reasoning you just called God a fornicator .utter carnal reasoning.
    Based upon nothing scriptural.
     
  8. Sammy-San

    Sammy-San Newbie

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    I won't repeat it, its profanity that also has the f word in it.

    The question I asked is about reconciling recognizing how putrid and wrong foul language is with the concept that what certain theologians said wasn't bibical.
     
  9. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I didn't ask you to repeat it, but there are a number of m curse words including one that references a homosexual act. I wasn't sure what you were referencing.

    Of course the meaning of words changes over time. The f word that describes a sexual act was once a fairly common term.
     
  10. Sammy-San

    Sammy-San Newbie

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    The one where people say "mother". I don't think it has the same meaning it did in the past.

    The question I asked is about reconciling recognizing how foul and wrong that language is (there is no question of that) with the opinion that doesn't agree with the theologians views on sexuality.
     
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  11. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    If it wasn't for tradition, you wouldn't know that the volume you call "The Bible" is sacred scripture.
     
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  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    To me it's very simple: God has the authority. We are to serve Him and Him alone. Unfortunately, it didn't take long before some folks chose to put themselves above God and demand people serve men in robes instead of God in heaven.
     
  13. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Did you even bother reading my post on authority (Number 363). If there is no visible authority on earth, then God has no authority on earth. He establishes His authority on earth in human beings, beginning with Adam, who was given dominion (authority) over Creation. Adam forfeited that by his sin, Satan stole it from Adam, and Christ Jesus has defeated Satan and taken the authority back. So once again we have a human being, the Man, Jesus the Christ, who is representative authority of God.

    He in turn granted that authority to His Apostles (John 20:23) before He left this earth and was no longer visible to men. When He returns in glory, all human authority will bow before Him - the King of kings - and will return the authority they have been given and the Scriptures say that God will be "all in all."
     
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  14. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I was raised in the RCC so I've heard it all before. We answer to God, not misguided men in robes who claim to speak for Him.
     
  15. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    If Our Lord didn't intend to grant authority to men... um, why did He say He was granting authority to men?
     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Don't ask him factual questions, you might fry his brain cells.
     
  17. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    What was the significance of the temple curtain being torn?

    Wonderful Chirst-like behavior there. :oldthumbsup:
     
  18. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    So you were raised in the Roman Church.

    Big freakin' deal!

    That does not mean that you actually learned the faith catholic. You were probably like some of the kids I teach in my CCD class, bored silly, uninterested, only there because your folks had hope you would grow in the faith. Really sad to watch.

    And then some Bible-thumper with a misinterpretation of the Bible came along and deceived you into his heresy and now you fancy yourself the king of Bible apologists.

    Just so you know - I was a Bible-thumper for 25 years, and a very anti-Catholic one, just like you. I knew it all, and I knew that I knew it all - until I actually began to read and study what the Christian faith of the first century was as expressed by those who preached it to the world - the Early Fathers of the Church. When I saw what they were teaching - that which they learned directly from the Apostles - I recognized that they were distinctly not Protestant.

    Now I had been taught that the "true Christian faith" had been corrupted when Emperor Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. Yet here are men who 200 years before Constantine were preaching the reality of

    1. The Eucharist as the very Body and Blood of Christ.

    2. Baptism saves and gives new life.

    3. The priesthoods

    4. The authority of the bishops of the Church.

    5. The Virgin Mary as the New Eve.

    There was no way I was staying Protestant after I realized these things. May God open your eyes to see exactly what it is that you walked away from.
     
  19. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    And the same to you. Go back and read your smarmy response to us as Catholics. You want respect -- EARN IT!!!
     
  20. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the problem is the teacher, not the students. Honestly, brother, your witness leaves a lot to be desired. I can only imagine how the children in your class must feel if this is how you interact with them.
     
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