When we choose death instead of life (when we choose to sin instead of obey), isn't this using our freewill to choose "outside the will of God"?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Why bad things happen:
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umaro55 said:
What I'm saying is freewill outside of God's will is an illusion brought on by our sinful nature. Our so called freewill is only so free. In other words, God knows what you will do or say before it even comes to pass. His will comes to pass. Nothing will thwart His plan. At the same time, we do have a will. We have the choice to serve or not to serve. But I tell you, God does have a say on how far we take things. Otherwise, we may make things very difficult on ourselves.
The bottom line is God is able to accomplish all things thru the hearts of men, no matter what that means. Whether good or bad, who can understand His judgments and ways.
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ghs1994 said:
The only problem with your idea here is that it also says that bad things come from Him...but they don't. There is good and evil. God's good.
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JimfromOhio
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FrankFaith said:
I agree with that, the key is that God is Soveriegn and He controls everything... Good and Evil. He provides the Good while He "allows" evil to happen.
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FrankFaith said:
Depends on your view of God and His Sovereignty.
Yes we are responsible for our sin. But no, we don't choose outside the will of God. Does He want us to obey? Yes. Do we always? No. But looking at the grand scheme of things, He has purpose in all things that come to pass, irregardless of whether or not they fall in line with us obeying or not. If it comes to pass, whether bad or good, He allowed it to come to pass, which means it was His will. If it wasn't His will, then God has become a spectator who can't do anything about it.
If you haven't jumped on that link on my post #11, check it out. Is that something you would agree with? It's just a short article by RC Sproul.
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OK. Sorry. Feel free to ignore my crazy curiosity....
ghs1994 said:
With this line of thinking, it would be God's will for some folks to wind up in hell. Not so. We DO, genuinely, have a FREE choice--a free will to choose life or death.
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FrankFaith said:
Then God is a spectator to you and doesn't have full control over all things. I don't know about you, but I don't serve that type of God. People condemn themselves by their sin without Christ as their Savior. God doesn't make them, but He allows them to. If it is God's will that all be saved as 2 Peter 3:9 says, then all would be saved. But since not all are saved, it is also His will for some to perish. He doesn't favor it obviously, but He knows that many will be called, but few chosen.
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ghs1994 said:
Wow.
Wow.
I don't even know where to begin. I'm sorry--I've got to run.
Shalom
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It's common for folks to get upset at this type of theology. But in truth, it's undeniable if we look at God's character for and how He has done things. For us to say we have freewill is to assume God has no control at all. It is our choice to do certain things, but are you telling me that God cannot or won't prevent things from coming to pass? Does He not have a say so over His creation? For us to have freewill means God has no control over anything that comes to pass and that is just false. You have a will, but you are at the mercy of God, are you not?
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ghs1994 said:
The ability to codify information and deduce choices from that information is a function of intelligence and is called volition. Freewill on the other hand is nothing but a construct of the mind to mask pride. The bible says so directly. Slaves of righteousness to life, or slaves of unrighteousness to death. We are slaves of one or the other.
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justinstout
Teaching God's Goodness
ghs1994 said:
I disagree.
If God literally controls everything, then He's ultimately responsible for every death, every disease, and every sin. I don't know about anyone else in here.. but I'm not bold (or ignorant) enough to make such a claim.
The Sovereignty of God
http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/sovereignty_god
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justinstout
Teaching God's Goodness
FrankFaith said:
Wow! Amen to that.
I thought I might be the only one who actually questions peoples' complete misconceptions about the will of God.
Much of what presently takes place in this earth is not God's will at all.
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justinstout
Teaching God's Goodness
JimfromOhio said:
So if you warn your child about playing in the street and then your child gets hit by a car.... Just because you supposedly "allowed" it (in the sense that you didn't stop it).. that means you controlled your child, controlled the car, controlled the person driving the car, and totally did away with the free will of everyone involved?
How wicked and completely evil...
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justinstout said:
And only a totally wicked and evil parent would merely tell their child to stay out of the street and then sit back and watch them get destroyed because they were too worried about violating the childs supposed "freewill" to run out and rescue them from themselves.
It is a precocious child that thinks he is the parent.
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JimfromOhio
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catlover said:
Or Joseph
Or Judas (If there was not a traitor, how would Jesus be lead to the Cross and died on the cross)
God allow bad things to Glorify Him.
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