Why are you a protestant today?

[Lotar]

Why has this thread been overtaken by Catholics?

 

[Higgaion]

That's their specialty.

 

[KennySe]

Why has this thread been overtaken by Catholics?

Defens0rFidei: OP + 2

preachers12: 1

Miss Shelby: 5

shelb5: 1

carly: 1

thereselittleflower: 3

KennySe: 2 (including THIS post)

That's 16 posts out of 62 (on a thread which only exists because a Catholic started it, so we shouldn't really count the OP.)
Hardly the definition of "overtaking" in my personal opinion.

 

[Lotar]

Why I'm Protestant?

1.) Prayer and verneration of Saints and Mary. I find this unbiblical.
2.) Veneration of icons and objects, I believe that this is blatent violation of God's law, and is idol worship. I know very well that Catholics & Orthodox believe that they only worship God, but the way I see it is they worship all but in name. As they believe of us, I believe of them, God may save them because they don't know any better.
3.) Sinlessness of Mary is a contradiction of God's word.
4.) Pope/apostlic succession. I find no direct biblical support for this, and if it was so important, I'm sure God would have more than "implied" it.
5.) One True Church theory. I cannot ascribe to a man made organization being the embodyment of Christ's Church. If it was then, as Catholics often quote, the gates of hell would not prevail, then the numorous abuses and great evils that took place in and through that Church, could not have happened.
6.) Works needed in addition to faith for salvation, and the uncertianty of salvation. I find this to be an affront and insult to the work Christ did on the cross. A Christian should be sure of his salvation, and that salvation comes through faith in Christ, who has paid in full for our sins. Since we love Him and have faith in Him, we will have works that follow, but never do those works gain us salvation, or lose it.
7.) Purgatory

 

[thereselittleflower]

Why I'm Protestant?

1.) Prayer and verneration of Saints and Mary. I find this unbiblical.
2.) Veneration of icons and objects, I believe that this is blatent violation of God's law, and is idol worship. I know very well that Catholics & Orthodox believe that they only worship God, but the way I see it is they worship all but in name. As they believe of us, I believe of them, God may save them because they don't know any better.

Hi Lotar

Those 2 above were my biggest hangups with the Catholic Church . . I understood it the same way you just posted . . of course, I don't any more. but I really do understand where you are coming from on this.

3.) Sinlessness of Mary is a contradiction of God's word.
4.) Pope/apostlic succession. I find no direct biblical support for this, and if it was so important, I'm sure God would have more than "implied" it.
5.) One True Church theory. I cannot ascribe to a man made organization being the embodyment of Christ's Church. If it was then, as Catholics often quote, the gates of hell would not prevail, then the numorous abuses and great evils that took place in and through that Church, could not have happened.

I understand these too, from a Protestant perspective . . but I have a question for you, espeiclaly in regards to the last one . .

Where do you see the church through the centuries from its inception being? . . Do you believe that the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic Church?

6.) Works needed in addition to faith for salvation, and the uncertianty of salvation. I find this to be an affront and insult to the work Christ did on the cross. A Christian should be sure of his salvation, and that salvation comes through faith in Christ, who has paid in full for our sins. Since we love Him and have faith in Him, we will have works that follow, but never do those works gain us salvation, or lose it.

Of course, Catholics are not alone in believing that salvation is conditional . .there are many in Protestant circles who believe in some type of Conditional Security as opposed to Eternal Security.

7.) Purgatory

A few years ago, I noticed at distinct shift in Protestant theology occuring in some circles accepting that something along these lines will happen . . but nothing so clearly defined as Catholics have of Purgatory . .. .


I know it seems to you that Catholics are taking over this thread, but I for one appreciate the willingness to dialogue about our respective faiths.

We love the same Lord and God!


Peace in Him!

 

[Blackhawk]

Hi Blackhawk . .

I don't in any way want to be overgeneralizing or in any way insulting of anyone . . but I am wondering how you reach the conclusion you do that many are not Catholic because they do understand RC doctrine . . (as opposed to misunderstand it)?

maybe because I understand much of it and yet I do not believe it. Also I think many others in church history have understood it and rejected it. Am I right or wrong? Well i think I am right and you probably think I am wrong. But many have understood RCC doctrine and have rejected it.

I ask because my personal experiences in talking to many Protestants about thier understanding of Catholicism demonstrates that what the vast majority believe to be true is not what Catholicism is about - what they tell me the Catholic Church teaches is not what the Catholic Church teaches . . and this, surprisingly, extends to those who are catechized in Catholicism over the last several decades, and this is because, I have found out, that their catechism was very poor, even if they did very well in it . itis not their fault, but the fault of their teachers . .

But it really appears to me that misunderstandings abound . . so I would really like to hear your point of view on why you don't think they do?


Peace in Him!

true many misunderstandings abound. But there are some who do understand RCC doctrine and reject it. I think your statement was an overgeneralization. I can't go into why I think the RCC is wrong because I have a paper to write. But many understand the RCC yet do not believe.

 

[InquisitorKind]

Hardly the definition of "overtaking" in my personal opinion.

Considering that this thread is specifically toward Protestants to answer the question of why they are still Protestant today, I can hardly see any reason for a Catholic to post here. Unless, of course, they're really Protestant.

~Matt

 

[Higgaion]

Inquisitor, in fact they are all Protestants. They just don't realize it.

 

[InquisitorKind]

Inquisitor, in fact they are all Protestants. They just don't realize it.

So true, so true.

~Matt

 

[Dawn Marie]

 

[Lotar]

Hi Lotar

Those 2 above were my biggest hangups with the Catholic Church . . I understood it the same way you just posted . . of course, I don't any more. but I really do understand where you are coming from on this.

Personaly, I don't see how anyone can see it any other way. Even the Jews never worshipped the prophets or Moses the way that the Catholic church does the saints and Mary.

I understand these too, from a Protestant perspective . . but I have a question for you, espeiclaly in regards to the last one . .

Where do you see the church through the centuries from its inception being? . . Do you believe that the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic Church?

The Church has always been the body of all believers, never any organization. I believe that the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic church, though there are believers in it, its teachings are full of heresy and paganism.

Of course, Catholics are not alone in believing that salvation is conditional . .there are many in Protestant circles who believe in some type of Conditional Security as opposed to Eternal Security.

A few years ago, I noticed at distinct shift in Protestant theology occuring in some circles accepting that something along these lines will happen . . but nothing so clearly defined as Catholics have of Purgatory . .. .


I know it seems to you that Catholics are taking over this thread, but I for one appreciate the willingness to dialogue about our respective faiths.

We love the same Lord and God!


Peace in Him!

From reading the many heresies that have invaded today's Church, I have no doubt that there are Protestant churches who teach these things.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Personaly, I don't see how anyone can see it any other way. Even the Jews never worshipped the prophets or Moses the way that the Catholic church does the saints and Mary.

I know . . but in reality, it is very different . . perhaps we can talk about it sometime.

The Church has always been the body of all believers, never any organization. I believe that the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic church, though there are believers in it, its teachings are full of heresy and paganism.

I appreciate your honesty . . Let me ask then, if you are right, and the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic Church, and that in spite of this, there was and continue to be believers in it, where do we see these believers in history? How do we know they were there? What evidence is there for their existance and/or what they believed and how they practiced and lived their faith?


Peace in Him!

 

[Lotar]

I know . . but in reality, it is very different . . perhaps we can talk about it sometime.

No, it's not at all different. I have talked quite extensively with both Catholics and Orthodox on the subject, and had the explain what they do and why they do it, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

I appreciate your honesty . . Let me ask then, if you are right, and the gates of hell did prevail against the Catholic Church, and that in spite of this, there was and continue to be believers in it, where do we see these believers in history? How do we know they were there? What evidence is there for their existance and/or what they believed and how they practiced and lived their faith?

Peace in Him!

If you are asking if I believed that there is or was some sectret undergound church, no I don't believe that. I believe that there are believers in the Catholic church, even if they are in great error. As I said, there are those who do not know that they are in sin, and perhaps God will not judge them for their ignorance.

 

[thereselittleflower]

No, it's not at all different. I have talked quite extensively with both Catholics and Orthodox on the subject, and had the explain what they do and why they do it, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

I do not doubt that you have tried to understand this issue . . What I have found very frequently, from both sides of the fence, is that we can use the same words, yet be speaking entirely different languages, and where we think we are communicatng and understanding what each other is saying, in reality we are like two ships passing in the night . . . my father used to have a desk plaque that said:

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

I think this goes both ways . .

Anyway . . I appreciate that you have taken time to try to understand the Catholic faith.

If you are asking if I believed that there is or was some sectret undergound church, no I don't believe that. I believe that there are believers in the Catholic church, even if they are in great error. As I said, there are those who do not know that they are in sin, and perhaps God will not judge them for their ignorance.

Thank you for explaining futher. Then, may I ask this, according to how you understand it, is there a point in time when the gates of hell prevailed against the Catholic Church? A particular time frame? Was the church doing fine up until a certain point in time and then lost its way?



Peace in Him!

 

[InquisitorKind]

is there a point in time when the gates of hell prevailed against the Catholic Church? A particular time frame? Was the church doing fine up until a certain point in time and then lost its way?



Peace in Him!

Comment:

Roman Catholic apologists are often fond of throwing this question at Protestants who don't know Church History, or sometimes even at those who do. I don't believe there ever was a time that the gates of hell prevailed. The question suggests that every single person on earth wasn't a Christian for some length in time. Reading the ECFs suggests otherwise. So how does a Protestant go about answering that question?

What the question presupposes is that the current Roman Catholic denomination has always existed, and its current doctrines are proper development from earlier states. It also presupposes that until the great East/West schism, that there was only one denomination, that being the Roman Catholic Church.

Since I believe most Protestants would reject all of these presuppositions, it's difficult to answer your question.

~Matt

 

[thereselittleflower]

Comment:

Roman Catholic apologists are often fond of throwing this question at Protestants who don't know Church History, or sometimes even at those who do. I don't believe there ever was a time that the gates of hell prevailed. The question suggests that every single person on earth wasn't a Christian for some length in time. Reading the ECFs suggests otherwise. So how does a Protestant go about answering that question?

What the question presupposes is that the current Roman Catholic denomination has always existed, and its current doctrines are proper development from earlier states. It also presupposes that until the great East/West schism, that there was only one denomination, that being the Roman Catholic Church.

Since I believe most Protestants would reject all of these presuppositions, it's difficult to answer your question.

~Matt

Hi Matt


Actually, though my personal belief is that the Catholic Church has always existed, I realize that there is not a consensus within Protestantism regarding this, so while I understand what you are saying above, I really wasn't trying to presuppose that someone answering the questions would think one way or another, so was trying to leave that element of it open . .

So let me ask this . .

If you don't believe that the Catholic Church has always existed, when do you believe it began to exist? And do you believe that it started out with the same beliefs as the church that preceded it, or was it something new? . . . and if it was new, how was it different from the church that prededed it?

Your response above also brings up a question . . are you saying that before the Great Schism, there as not one church? If so, what other churches were there? As a protetant, I had always understood that there was one church up until the Great Schism, then 2 main branches until the Reformation . . so your suggestion is a foriegn idea to me even as a protestant . .

Thanks and I look forward to your, and anyone else who would like to, responses.


Peace in HIm!

 

[Ken]

Hi Matt, and esp theresalittleflower.. it seems to me that when RC's ask "so why or when do you think that the gates of hell prevailed against the church?" it is kind of like asking someone "when did you stop beating your wife?"... it (the question or proposition) however it is phrased, assumes something that is not yet proven, and then on the basis of the unproven assumption or presupposition (in this case the obvious presupposition is the RC is the "true" church) there enters confusion and this clouds the discussion... a helpful discussion of this informal logical fallacy, known as a "Complex Question" (or elsewhere known as a "Loaded Question") can be found at the following
http://www.lich-mc.com/vietnam/complexquestion.htm

blessings

 

[InquisitorKind]

Hi Matt

Hello.

If you don't believe that the Catholic Church has always existed, when do you believe it began to exist? And do you believe that it started out with the same beliefs as the church that preceded it, or was it something new? . . . and if it was new, how was it different from the church that prededed it?

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church has been changing throughout history. When I read what the catholic church believed in the 200's, I can't square it away with what it believed in the 1600's, or even the 1900's. The differences are too great to consider the current Roman Catholic Church the same catholic body of believers that existed at the beginning. Part of this has to do with my take on how doctrine develops--I think it would be sufficient to say that I don't believe Rome's development has been legitimate.

Part of our differences spring from the fact that I don't think the Christian body is to be found within the confindes of one institution. I know that Roman Catholics also believe this to some extent, but not in the same way that some Protestants, such as myself, do. The body of Christ is located inside and out of denominational boundaries, and as a consequence, I don't think any one church organization can claim "One True Church" status.

Your response above also brings up a question . . are you saying that before the Great Schism, there as not one church? If so, what other churches were there? As a protetant, I had always understood that there was one church up until the Great Schism, then 2 main branches until the Reformation . . so your suggestion is a foriegn idea to me even as a protestant . .

There were many differing and varying throughts within the early church, even on what the Roman Catholic Church would consider essentials today. It seems to me that there were probably many "denominations" before the great schism just as there have been throughout the rest of history.

There were also schismatics, but I don't think they fit into your definition of church.


~Matt

 

[Bruce S]

Why has this thread been overtaken by Catholics?

Because they all are, frankly.

 

[Bruce S]

Considering that this thread is specifically toward Protestants to answer the question of why they are still Protestant today, I can hardly see any reason for a Catholic to post here. Unless, of course, they're really Protestant.

~Matt

Forum rules FORBID Catholics from debating here. Of course, the rules apply to US elsewhere, but not to them here.

My suggestion is to IMMEDIATELY move any thread that a Catholic begins DEBATING in to the IDD, of course, that would leave this forum empty.

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.