Why are you a protestant today?

[Lotar]

That's not entirely accurate. Many Arminians believe in OSAS. And Calvinists generally prefer the terms "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". At any rate, OSAS is almost, maybe actually, a tautology.

Then they aren't very strict Arminians, it's like a Calvinist believing you can loose your faith, it's contrary to the rest of their theology.

Yes, I know OSAS is generally used as a derogatory term.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Now I believe catholics believe that priests are without sin...

I just want to stress that Catholics do not believe their priests are without sin. Not at all.

Also, I have seen numerous people write in this thread that Catholics worship Mary, Joseph and other saints. We do not worship saints- we worship only God.
We also do not confess to a priest instead of God.

Please, please, please- if you are going to criticize what we do or believe, make sure that what you are saying is actually what true. There are more misunderstandings about Catholicism in this thread than I can count...

 

[InquisitorKind]

Also, I have seen numerous people write in this thread that Catholics worship Mary, Joseph and other saints. We do not worship saints- we worship only God.

I agree with the other mischaracterizations. However, this is a point upon which there is legitmate debate. You can say you don't worship them, but Protestants still think otherwise.

But, again, I agree that the other two points were misrepresenting Catholicism.

~Matt

 

[Higgaion]

Then they aren't very strict Arminians, it's like a Calvinist believing you can loose your faith, it's contrary to the rest of their theology.

I agree it is contradictory, but many don't seem to realize it. Also, when the Remonstrants, followers of Arminius, presented their formal list of grievances against Reformed theology, the last point of whether salvation could be lost or not they claimed to be undecided on and left it up for further consideration.

Yes, I know OSAS is generally used as a derogatory term.

Oh, so you were taking a shot as us Calvinists? lol

 

[CSMR]

Personally I like the idea of confession (though if it were available to me I'd be rather frightened ). Actually "accountability partners" seems to be a substitute for it among some protestant groups. But I don't know how either works exactly.

I don't think "scripture alone" is a very accurate way of seeing the Protestant/Catholic split. Catholics weren't claiming that the scriptures were in error, and protestants had their own tradition, albeit a simplified one. By that I mean that protestants had a interpretive key with which to unlock the scriptures - the absolute sinfullness of man in contrast to the absolute holiness of God, and justification through faith by the grace of God. (I think it's a good one )

I wonder if there is any convergence on this issue? There was some agreement between the RC and lutheran churches on justification recently, wasn't there?

 

[CSMR]

Found it. It contains statements of concord and difference bet. the Lutheran and RC churches. Seems like a good summary, relevant to this thread.

But I haven't enough posts yet to post a link
Google-searching "joint declaration on the doctrine of justification" gets you there.

 

[InquisitorKind]

I wonder if there is any convergence on this issue? There was some agreement between the RC and lutheran churches on justification recently, wasn't there?

Many Protestant apologists and theologians have rejected the document as unhelpful, at best. From what I've read of the document, and from what others have said, it seems that the crucial difference of justification was not addressed.

~Matt

 

[admtaylor]

Why am I protestant. Well, I feel that the level that the RCC lifts Mary to is idolatry. I believe that asking a mere man to forgive you for your sins is way off base there are many other things that don't sit well with me but those are the two biggies.

 

[twex]

Many Protestant apologists and theologians have rejected the document as unhelpful, at best. From what I've read of the document, and from what others have said, it seems that the crucial difference of justification was not addressed.

No, but at least it was some progress. The saddest part was how the Lutherans failed to reach consensus even among themselves; some synods accepted the document, other rejected it. Rome's official response, by the way, points out the unresolved doctrinal differences in unmatched clarity, chief among them the simul iustus et peccator clause.

I think this illustrates a point pertinent to the topic: Above all else, the Protestants fear a hierarchical church. The history of the Protestant movement instills in them a subtle paranoia, a fear of being repressed by authority, which results in hopeless fragmentation, doctrinal confusion and an immense loss of political influence.

According to my observations, the second important reason why Protestants aren't Catholics is ignorance about Catholic dogma, caused by anti-Catholic propaganda. The number of Protestants who can accurately represent Catholic dogma and who can therefore disagree with it for respectable, logical reasons is miniscule.

 

[eldermike]

According to my observations, the second important reason why Protestants aren't Catholics is ignorance about Catholic dogma, caused by anti-Catholic propaganda. The number of Protestants who can accurately represent Catholic dogma and who can therefore disagree with it for respectable, logical reasons is miniscule.

Here in the south we don't use anti-Catholic propaganda, we just let you folks speak for yourself.

 

[Blackhawk]

Then they aren't very strict Arminians, it's like a Calvinist believing you can loose your faith, it's contrary to the rest of their theology.

Yes, I know OSAS is generally used as a derogatory term.

Actually Arminius and early Arminianism did not believe that one could lose their salvation necessarily. They thought that it needed more study. Later on it became more dogmatically against OSAS.

 

[Bruce S]

Here in the south we don't use anti-Catholic propaganda, we just let you folks speak for yourself.

Mike, they NEVER ever "speak for themselves" they NEED to quote from the CCD books, did you forget, RCC's are NOT allowed to speak without "Magisterial Authority" and that means cut and paste from some Catholic site.

Like talking to an automated reposting machine....

Even when they MIGHT have a personal opinion, they don't dare to state it. Just an observation.

Grin.

 

[Blackhawk]

Mike, they NEVER ever "speak for themselves" they NEED to quote from the CCD books, did you forget, RCC's are NOT allowed to speak without "Magisterial Authority" and that means cut and paste from some Catholic site.

Like talking to an automated reposting machine....

Even when they MIGHT have a personal opinion, they don't dare to state it. Just an observation.

Grin.

I do not think so. Sure they believe the church has much more authority than we do but what you have stated here is an overstatement and a generalization. I can understand your frustration but your statement is not fair to Catholics.

 

[Blackhawk]

No, but at least it was some progress. The saddest part was how the Lutherans failed to reach consensus even among themselves; some synods accepted the document, other rejected it. Rome's official response, by the way, points out the unresolved doctrinal differences in unmatched clarity, chief among them the simul iustus et peccator clause.

I think this illustrates a point pertinent to the topic: Above all else, the Protestants fear a hierarchical church. The history of the Protestant movement instills in them a subtle paranoia, a fear of being repressed by authority, which results in hopeless fragmentation, doctrinal confusion and an immense loss of political influence.

According to my observations, the second important reason why Protestants aren't Catholics is ignorance about Catholic dogma, caused by anti-Catholic propaganda. The number of Protestants who can accurately represent Catholic dogma and who can therefore disagree with it for respectable, logical reasons is miniscule.

This post at best is a gross generalization of protestants and at worst down right insulting. Could many not be Catholic because they understand RC doctrine and have read and studied the Bible andthe church fathers and still do not agree with the RCC? Sure. I am one of them. I am not paranoid nor am I ignorant. Please do not call me and all other protestants this.

Also I can reverse what you said above and tear down the RCC if I cared to do so. However if I did that I too would be just generalizing and would be insulting and I respect the RCC too much to do so.

 

[eldermike]

My statement was only condeming one posters attitude, it was not meant to be a stroke at the RCC at all. It clearly could go out of context easily.

I am like most Baptists I know. We go about ministry without protesting anything, it just never comes up. When someone paints a picture of bias being an activity of most Christians outside the RCC I just call on my 54 years of conversation and come to the simple and accurate conclusion that this is just not true. When someone claims that ignorance is the basis of my faith I get a bit upset.

 

[Serapha]

Mike, they NEVER ever "speak for themselves" they NEED to quote from the CCD books, did you forget, RCC's are NOT allowed to speak without "Magisterial Authority" and that means cut and paste from some Catholic site.

Like talking to an automated reposting machine....

Even when they MIGHT have a personal opinion, they don't dare to state it. Just an observation.

Grin.

Hi there!




In defense of Catholicism, at least there is a "rating system" for them to use... If materials have the imprimi imprint, then it has been found to be doctrinally pure by their teachings.


Without the imprimi, they might just look like Baptists.


What was it you said... oh yeah...

<grin>


~malaka~

 

[thereselittleflower]

It totally wasn't JUST indulgences.

Read EVERYTHING Luther wrote. Calvin. I don't even remember Calvin TALKING about indulgences.

The indulgence issue was one Luther had with a particular monk who was wrongly selling them . . who was promoting wrong doctrine . .this is what his 95 theses was about . . I wonder how many people have ever read them? Most think it is where the Reforamtion started, but it wasn't . . if one reads them, then one will understand that Luther did not have a problem with indulgences, but how a particular monk was handling them, and the Cathollic Church didn't move fast enough for him . . so he took it public . . but is was several years before the Reformation actually began.

Have I read Luther? Oh gosh . . I have read A LOT of what Luther wrote!! And it is where God tore away so many false ideas I had about the Reformation, what it was about, who Luther was, etc . . it is where I began my journey away from myth, and there are so many myths . . I say this somewhat guardedly as in my experience most are not ready for the truth about the Reformation . . but have you read his words about the Peasant War, and his writings including the book The Jews and Their Lies? There are so many myths surrounding Luther and the Reformation that one has to go back and read his original words, not what others have necessarily written historically about him . .

The issue for me is authority. I simply will not listen to anyone speak and believe his words to be equal to the word of God- not as an LDS, not as a JW, not as anyone. Sola Scriptura.

How do you feel about Luther's words then regarding the scripture, that all had to agree with him? Have you read his words in this regards? Have you rejected Luther?

Because of this, I've come to accept the doctrines that I hold to as evidence from the Scripture. I've spent a lot of time and gone on a long journey, and now I'm greatly pleased and at peace with the Bible with what I believe. TTYL Jesus loves you!

I understand . . I don't know where your journey took you, but I greatly appreciate that you have put a great deal of yourself into understanding God . .

My journey I mentioned above started almost 31/2 yeras ago . . and it has not been an easy one . . I am also greatly at peace with what I undestand and believe.

May God's richest blessings be with you!

Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

This post at best is a gross generalization of protestants and at worst down right insulting. Could many not be Catholic because they understand RC doctrine and have read and studied the Bible andthe church fathers and still do not agree with the RCC?

Hi Blackhawk . .

I don't in any way want to be overgeneralizing or in any way insulting of anyone . . but I am wondering how you reach the conclusion you do that many are not Catholic because they do understand RC doctrine . . (as opposed to misunderstand it)?

I ask because my personal experiences in talking to many Protestants about thier understanding of Catholicism demonstrates that what the vast majority believe to be true is not what Catholicism is about - what they tell me the Catholic Church teaches is not what the Catholic Church teaches . . and this, surprisingly, extends to those who are catechized in Catholicism over the last several decades, and this is because, I have found out, that their catechism was very poor, even if they did very well in it . itis not their fault, but the fault of their teachers . .

But it really appears to me that misunderstandings abound . . so I would really like to hear your point of view on why you don't think they do?


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Mike, they NEVER ever "speak for themselves" they NEED to quote from the CCD books, did you forget, RCC's are NOT allowed to speak without "Magisterial Authority" and that means cut and paste from some Catholic site.

Like talking to an automated reposting machine....

Even when they MIGHT have a personal opinion, they don't dare to state it. Just an observation.

Grin.

Hi Bruce,



I can assure you that I do a lot of speaking for myself! And I speak with several Catholics who are able to think and reason for themselves, and speak from their own hearts, not robotically parrot what someone else has told them . .

I hope I don't appear as an automated reposting machine to you or anyone here! LOL

And I will dare state my personal opinions if I feel it is warranted and beneficial, but I will do my best to make it known it is my personal opinion . .

I have never felt that I had to chuck my brain at the door . . I find Catholicism to be a deeply intellectually engaging faith as well as a deeply spriitually engaging one.


Peace in Him!

 

[KennySe]

Mike, they NEVER ever "speak for themselves" they NEED to quote from the CCD books, did you forget, RCC's are NOT allowed to speak without "Magisterial Authority" and that means cut and paste from some Catholic site.

Like talking to an automated reposting machine....

Even when they MIGHT have a personal opinion, they don't dare to state it. Just an observation.

Grin.

You anger me, Bruce.

Rather than slam the Catholic Church in this thread, why don't YOU stick to the topic and say why you are a Protestant, and move on?

P.S. I dared to speak for myself.