Why are you a protestant today?

[Higgaion]

Ken,

Dr. G was the man! Too bad more people haven't heard of and read him. Oh well, these are the times we live in.

 

[Bruce S]

I'm praying for you Bruce. Come home.

Michelle

Hey Shelby, I will pray for you too, grin. Hey, following these links can be fun, I'm learning a lot, thinking a lot too.

Come on now, just fess up a little here, some of this is interesting stuff.

Unlike others here, I'm completely open to seeing abuses in MY faith too, I have posted lots of stuff about the con men who so frequently find their way into Evangelical pulpits, and have frequently named names and provided links.

What irks me about the RCC debates we have entered into, is the "We are right, and you are wrong" thing. Personally, I really believe that none of us, laity, or ordained, have the full and complete knowledge. John, in his closing words in his Gospel, alludes to the fact that there is much that happened that wasn't written.

And come on now, why do you feel so motivated to defend and protect EVERY little nuance of RCC, I see Protestants frequently, looking introspectively, questioning all that our preachers preach. Yet the RCC's don't seem to ever do that, they continually go out, and come back with official teachings, I can't ever recall a Catholic doing anyting but restating doctrine.

The links are from Christianity Today, a normal, mainline, well respected organization.

 

[Sign Of The Fish Burger]

Well see this is hard... I have really been wrestling with this lately... I have been a christian for almost 2 years... so it wasnt a matter of me being brought up in a prtestant church... it was a matter of choice. I attend a Wesleyan church, but I have been to Baptist churches and I have been just as fed spiritually.

Last night my pastor asked me if I havebecome a memeber of the church yet, and I said no, and he was kinda shocked, he said because I am so involved and blah blah blah and he really didnt understand me. But I said to him, that I hate the divisions of the body of chirst. I want to be free to worship wherever. If durring this part of my life I chose to attend a wesleyan church, but just say if I ever moved away and found a baptist church or even a catholic church... I want to worship God where He wants me to go and worship. Not simply go somwheres because its where my parentsd go or whatever.

The only thing I have with the catholic church, is having to confess to a priest. I dont understand why I would go to another sinner and confess my sins. Now I believe catholics believe that priests are without sin... but I dont believe that because everyone was born into this work of sin, therefore the only blamesless man to ever walk the earth was Jesus Christ. ANd thru Him, I can confess my sins.

Thats just my 0.02$ Please dont flame me for what I belueve

 

[Miss Shelby]

And come on now, why do you feel so motivated to defend and protect EVERY little nuance of RCC, I see Protestants frequently, looking introspectively, questioning all that our preachers preach. Yet the RCC's don't seem to ever do that, they continually go out, and come back with official teachings, I can't ever recall a Catholic doing anyting but restating doctrine.

Well...since you asked, I will answer you. This all boils down to authority, Bruce. Catholics believe that the Church will not teach error because the promise of the Holy Spirit will be with her always. Now you may look at sinful people within the Church and wonder how these people can sin when they supposedly belong to a Church that will not teach error, but to do so will just lead you to faulty conclusions. Because people sin.

You want to know why I feel compelled to defend Catholicism? Because Catholicism defines who I am. Protestants do not feel such loyalty to their Church or to their denomination because they do not have the safety of knowing what their Church teaches is absolute truth.

Michelle

 

[Bruce S]

=Sign Of The Fish

I want to be free to worship wherever. If durring this part of my life I chose to attend a wesleyan church, but just say if I ever moved away and found a baptist church or even a catholic church... I want to worship God where He wants me to go and worship. Not simply go somwheres because its where my parentsd go or whatever.

Thats just my 0.02$ Please dont flame me for what I belueve

Total agreement here with you Fish, I attend two bible studies, in two different Presbyterian denominations, go on Saturday's to a Messianic Jewish service, and attend my normal church, the Assembly of God on Wednesday nights and Sundays.

AND, if you want to count it, regularly read most of the other denominations boards on this site.

Freedom, personal freedom, to learn and grow, from all the Christian thinkers is what I believe being a real Protestant means.

Not just regurgitating doctrine from others and never questioning it.

 

[Bruce S]

Well...since you asked, I will answer you.
Protestants do not feel such loyalty to their Church or to their denomination because they do not have the safety of knowing what their Church teaches is absolute truth.

Michelle

Ah, the answer.

As always, again, it is the "We are right, and everyone else is wrong" thing I alluded to before.

KNOWING that absolute truth is being taught, is different from BELIEVING that absolute truth exists in RCC doctrine.

Personally, that is the fundamental difference dividing us. RCC's look to others for all the truth there is, AND over the centuries, they don't even agree what is the correct answer, internally they squabble all the time. YET, despite those internal squabbles, they tell others that the TRUTH is concrete, as defined by RCC doctrine. However, that doctrine has been known to have changed, been "corrected" and restated.

Others notice this, and it brings into question the remaining "truth" that is being told to outsiders.

Protestants don't have that particular need to claim the right to the exclusive knowledge of "truth" and it makes us more readily open to learning from all sources, Catholic as well as other researchers.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Ah, the answer.

As always, again, it is the "We are right, and everyone else is wrong" thing I alluded to before.

Why do you have to go there, Bruce? You asked me for crying out loud. And I did NOT say that we're right and everyone else is wrong.

KNOWING that absolute truth is being taught, is different from BELIEVING that absolute truth exists in RCC doctrine.

Here we disagree.

Personally, that is the fundamental difference dividing us. RCC's look to others for all the truth there is, AND over the centuries, they don't even agree what is the correct answer, internally they squabble all the time. YET, despite those internal squabbles, they tell others that the TRUTH is concrete, as defined by RCC doctrine. However, that doctrine has been known to have changed, been "corrected" and restated.

No it hasn't. And you have displayed your misunderstanding on the matter quite aptly when you said that if a Catholic ate a hamburger on a friday pre-Vatican II they were going to hell and now they're not. That was a matter of discipline, not doctrine. And that discipline has not changed.

Others notice this, and it brings into question the remaining "truth" that is being told to outsiders.

What you notice are your own misunderstandings and you PURPORT them as truth.

Protestants don't have that particular need to claim the right to the exclusive knowledge of "truth" and it makes us more readily open to learning from all sources, Catholic as well as other researchers.

1. No you do not have the security of knowing what is being taught to you is true. 2. NO it does not make you more ready to learn, because you have never displayed a desire to learn about Catholicism, you've only displayed a desire to debunk it.

Michelle

 

[eldermike]

Are we debating here?
Yes we are.

I don't want to warn people.
But I will if I have too.

No debating the issue, even, yes, even if you don't agree with the answer to the question that was asked.

And, I you feel a need to go beyond a simple answer, then please state that "in your opinion" here is what I believe.

 

[Godzman]

In another thread on this forum, I read this...



If I saw these practices during my time, I would be upset as well, and I would want to clean up the Church as well.

But assuming the claim that the reformers wanted to stay in the Church is true...what do you make of the counter-reformation, which the RCC did itself in response to the reformation, to clean up its admittedly bad practices?

We do not tolerate the sale of indulgences anymore...the Papacy is not abused anymore...etc.

In other words, if the Church was good enough for the Reformers to try and clean up, and if it is now cleaned up, why are you a protestant today?

Thanks!

do you believe salvation comes by grace alone and that works follow salvation

 

[Bruce S]

2. NO it does not make you more ready to learn, because you have never displayed a desire to learn about Catholicism, you've only displayed a desire to debunk it.

Michelle

I "learned" about RCC during 21 years of belonging, 6 years of Catholic school Shelb. I spend hours a day on these sites, and follow most of the links, study the isssues, and independently comment.

Now don't get all defensive, that HERE in the PRE forum the PRE's might not agree with the statements you make. That should, by the very nature, of this forum, be obvious that many DO think that some of the RCC stuff is worth commenting upon.

There exists a forum, the OBOB where doctrine can and should be posted where people go who AGREE with those particular teachings, here, we mostly don't.

Why is that so amazing to you?






Sheesh.

 

[Miss Shelby]

eldermike, I apologize for not respecting the rules of the forum.

Bruce, I apologize for my defensive tone.

Now, you started a thread in OBOB this a.m., and you haven't been back. What did you think about the answers you received?

Michelle

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

do you believe salvation comes by grace alone and that works follow salvation

Initial justification comes by grace alone, not faith or works or anything from ourselves. That is official RCC teachings.

As for salvation...well that requires living up to the standard Christ demands, but it is always assisted by graces throughout your lifetime.

Works come from GRACE, not from "salvation," and they require the consent of our will to be efficacious.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Benedicta00]

Having PERSONALLY worn a medal of St.Christopher for a few years of my life, I was surprised to learn this one, this morning, while following links for my posts in this thread.


Darn. I sorta believed that one myself.

And you still may, he was not di-canonized. What you quoted is saying that there are stories about certain saints that are legends, not that he is still not a saint. He is a saint it is just we do not know that much about him.

 

[Lotar]

My reason is pretty simple. I disagree strongly with a more than a few areas of Catholic doctrine, and since I can't be in complete agreement, I can't be Catholic.

 

[Bruce S]

eldermike, I apologize for not respecting the rules of the forum.

Bruce, I apologize for my defensive tone.

Now, you started a thread in OBOB this a.m., and you haven't been back. What did you think about the answers you received?

Michelle

Respecting the rules of the OBOB forum, I asked the question, did NOT come and debate them, as others have done here against the forum rules about non PRE commentary.

I thought the points made by the followup to my OP question were good ones, and I followed many of the links provided in the original thread, and the ones referenced.

Of course, the RCC is the largest Christian denomination, long established, and well represented around the world. Evangelistic? Not really sure, but outside of the USA, they do seem to operate differently than here in that regard.

 

[Bruce S]

Initial justification comes by grace alone, not faith or works or anything from ourselves. That is official RCC teachings.

As for salvation...well that requires living up to the standard Christ demands, but it is always assisted by graces throughout your lifetime.

Works come from GRACE, not from "salvation," and they require the consent of our will to be efficacious.

Does that answer your question?

Initial 'justification' and 'continuing justification' are issues that divide us.

The 'works' that we might see [rightly or wrongly] are what we disagree with. Losing salvation, or having your life here on earth, needing the purgatorial cleansing before entering into heaven seem to be concerns of Catholics, and not of Protestants.

Of course, this has been debated to death, and no need to go back into that again. Just pointing out the reasons Protestants and Catholics don't agree on so much.

 

[Lotar]

Initial 'justification' and 'continuing justification' are issues that divide us.

The 'works' that we might see [rightly or wrongly] are what we disagree with. Losing salvation, or having your life here on earth, needing the purgatorial cleansing before entering into heaven seem to be concerns of Catholics, and not of Protestants.

Of course, this has been debated to death, and no need to go back into that again. Just pointing out the reasons Protestants and Catholics don't agree on so much.

Many Protestants believe that you can loose your faith. It is only the Calvinists who believe in OSAS.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Respecting the rules of the OBOB forum, I asked the question, did NOT come and debate them, as others have done here against the forum rules about non PRE commentary.

Well, that's a nice little dig. And after I apologized and everything. Still, ya coulda come back and said thanks.

Of course, the RCC is the largest Christian denomination, long established, and well represented around the world. Evangelistic? Not really sure, but outside of the USA, they do seem to operate differently than here in that regard.

I would love for you to expound on this.

Michelle

 

[Bruce S]

I would love for you to expound on this.

Michelle

That would be a violation of this forum's rules, where Catholics are precluded from debate here. Those kinds of debates, are for the IDD where cross denominational issues are to be the norm, unlike the PRE forum.

Rules are rules, I follow them when visiting other places, and wonder why the same courtesy isn't afforded in return.

 

[Higgaion]

Many Protestants believe that you can loose your faith. It is only the Calvinists who believe in OSAS.

That's not entirely accurate. Many Arminians believe in OSAS. And Calvinists generally prefer the terms "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". At any rate, OSAS is almost, maybe actually, a tautology.