Why are we so hard on YECs?

[Jase]

I think this is the wrong attitude to take. In the General Creation vs. Evolution thread, there was a post by a TEist claiming that Creationists weren't true Christians because they were spreading a false doctrine. I was the only one to correct the poster that we are all brothers in Christ, no matter what our beliefs.

Regardless of whether or not Creationists correct their own, we should not use that as a standard to police our members. We should always correct any errors made by anyone, TEist or Creationist.

I think that is one reason why Creationist may think we're harder on them than on other TEists. That's because TEists tend to make less scientific mistakes than Creationists, and since TEists tend to be more scientifically minded, they are much more likely to correct errors than Creationists. To Creationists, it may seem heavy handed, but to us, it's just education. When you see an incorrect scientific statement, it's natural you want to correct it to prevent incorrect ideas from spreading.

I think we wouldn't be correct Creationists that much, if at all, if they stopped making scientific statements about Creationism.

I wasn't really suggesting that we just not bother to check other TE's on what they say. It was more so a challenge to pop regarding why creationists don't bother checking each other, yet they demand we do it.

 

[KTatis]

I believe in YEC. Which parts of the above statement would you apply to me? Try reversing it -- substitute TE or TEist for YEC or YECist and see how it reads.

Basically, whenever you insult an entire group blindly like that, you are insulting each member of the group. Its not true, its not loving, and its not nice.

I didn't mean all YEC! I said those who don't do the research ect. Those who blindly accept what they think is right and use it to attack other peoples arguments.

Some, not all YEC don't even take the time to do their research they claim that they know these things without any source of information ect. How sure are you about your beleifs?

 

[shernren]

Wow. Are you so sure of your own infallibility? Be careful -- we are not each other's enemy. Our shared real enemy walks about like a lion seeking those he may devour.

All good things come from God, and if anyone has been able to convince me that creation science is pseudoscience, it's only because God has given me a mind that leans heavily towards analytical thinking.

If I can help it (though it is all in the hands of God) I will not lose anyone whom God has brought me to care for in my limited, human capacities. To that end I will hone my abilities and gifts as far as I possibly can: to delve into the creationist mindset as far as I can reach so that I know how to root it out as quickly and painlessly as possible should the need ever arise. If that necessitates a little frankness every once in a while, so be it. I can only pray that I will be usable when God wishes me to be used, no more, no less.

There's your answer. I have never said that I was infallible. But whatever little God has entrusted me with He will expect me to use well.

 

[pastorkevin73]

I have browsed some of the comments on this thread. I think the title of this tread is a good one. To take it one step further, why do we treat each other so badly at times? Sure it is so much easier to spew out what we think and/or how we feel, but it is important to temper our words. Sometimes I think we forget (at least I have), at times, that we all claim to be Christians and as such we should be treating each other with love and respect. If we really want to share the gospel with the world they will believe us all the more if we treat each other with brotherly/sisterly love. People, Satan loves it when Christians treat each other badly and it makes our Father sad.
The idea of free speech has been used on this thread and this attitude has been used on OT in the past. We should never use "free speech" as an excuses for treating each other with distain and disrespect. As I already said we need to temper our words. I admit that at times I have posted not very nice posts which I have had to delete after I posted because I realized I shouldn't have written something or was warned. So let us practice restraint when we write and treat each other with love and respect, because this is what God wants to see us do as we discuss OT. Let us work on this together. Perhaps a good start would be seeking forgiveness and reconciliation for how we have treated other in the past on this board.


So here goes the practice what I preach part: To those I have intentionally insulted and/or treated with distain; I apologize for how I have treated you. To those I have unknowingly done the above, I apoligize for how I have treated you. It is unbecoming of a brother in Christ and I am sorry for my words and actions to these people. I ask for your forgiveness.



Lord, may we seek to treat each other as you have called us to, with love, Your love. As we discuss may we glorify You in our words and study of this subject. Amen!

Blessings All!

 

[Melethiel]

I have browsed some of the comments on this thread. I think the title of this tread is a good one. To take it one step further, why do we treat each other so badly at times? Sure it is so much easier to spew out what we think and/or how we feel, but it is important to temper our words. Sometimes I think we forget (at least I have), at times, that we all claim to be Christians and as such we should be treating each other with love and respect. If we really want to share the gospel with the world they will believe us all the more if we treat each other with brotherly/sisterly love. People, Satan loves it when Christians treat each other badly and it makes our Father sad.
The idea of free speech has been used on this thread and this attitude has been used on OT in the past. We should never use "free speech" as an excuses for treating each other with distain and disrespect. As I already said we need to temper our words. I admit that at times I have posted not very nice posts which I have had to delete after I posted because I realized I shouldn't have written something or was warned. So let us practice restraint when we write and treat each other with love and respect, because this is what God wants to see us do as we discuss OT. Let us work on this together. Perhaps a good start would be seeking forgiveness and reconciliation for how we have treated other in the past on this board.


So here goes the practice what I preach part: To those I have intentionally insulted and/or treated with distain; I apologize for how I have treated you. To those I have unknowingly done the above, I apoligize for how I have treated you. It is unbecoming of a brother in Christ and I am sorry for my words and actions to these people. I ask for your forgiveness.



Lord, may we seek to treat each other as you have called us to, with love, Your love. As we discuss may we glorify You in our words and study of this subject. Amen!

Blessings All!

Well said.

 

[KTatis]

If I hurt anyone i'm sorry. You know I didn't mean it. I was just trying to express the situation by my piont of view. Again I'm sorry and ask for your forgivness thank you.

 

[hithesh]

These are the two greatest commandments, and certainly we are to keep them in front of us, obey BOTH of them, as we seek to become more like Christ.

So, while the two greatest commandments are wonderful - Jesus is life itself.

There is something long a miss in the house of God, the men who could not see with their eyes has sown seeds, and blinded many.

Our Lord is the light that serves as the guide, and the way to the Kingdom. He died, bled, and suffered, to teach you these two commandments. What he spoke to us, is only here: "God requires mercy, not sacrifice; Love God, and do so by showing love to others."

God requires mercy not sacrifice.

The enemy has come into our camp, and chocked the Word from our brothers, so that their heart becomes cold. They teach the false Word, that seeks to please the flesh, and perserve it.

They cower away from the orphan and the widow, because they fear tribulation, so they invent a doctrine of being swept away.

Poison has entered into the house of God, because men no longer know God's will: "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. And what i like unto it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Our Lord, bled, suffered, and died to guide you to this.

To live in the light of this, is the only way to understand the word of God, and behold the Kingdom that has long been among us.

Narrow is the gate.

 

[busterdog]

I think it can be taken as offensive, as there are Creationists that don't follow your generalizations. See this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5245956-questionning-everything.html

You have to put yourself in their shoes. Remember that science goes against their very core beliefs, and that if science was correct, many Creationists would reject Christianity. In many cases, it's not really the Creationists' fault that they believe so, but rather due to our poor science education system, and due to their culture.

Many Creationists I know of were taught to reject science by their parents, and the pattern follows with their kids. Not many Creationists have had the opportunity to have science majors in college (just look at the ratio of YECist scientists to regular scientists). I don't think it's arrogance that causes many to reject science, rather their upbringing.

The best we can do is continue to correct the scientific errors made, and hope that it reaches them.

Thanks for this.

Upbringing or Church teaching, or really the preachers that YECs really follow. Calvary Chapel I think is heavily YEC. CC broadcasts a lot in my area.

We just happen to think that the "surface text" is as good or better than other evidence of the age of the earth. Mallon is right, we are fundamentalists and that is very hard for TEs to penetrate with "evidence."

And unfortunately, it does happen that when a TE position is put up here, letting it go is simply not in our constitution. I got really bent about a poster denying that prophecy coudl predict the future. If one were to be fundamentalists, it would follow that this really hits something vital to the mind of the fundamentalist and is something requiring a clear defense.

Martin Luther Quotes. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me.

 

[mark kennedy]

I noticed a few YECs in the "creationist" thread, seeming to feel bummed, that they are not taken seriously, that they are spoken to, harshly, and that they are constantly put down often.

Try bored, you can only field so many of the same tired circular reasoning without losing interest.

From my own perspective, I have no problem with YECs, my father and mother are YECs, most of my friends are YECs, and most of them know that I am a (TE), and they don't attempt to steer me differently, because they know that they don't understand the science, and the evidence for evolution, so debating science with me, to prove (YEC) would be pointless to them, since their belief has nothing to do with science.

The view of most of the YECs I know is that it's a divisive and contentious issue designed to undermine peoples faith. Without a thick skin and some fairly in depth training in apologetics the pseudo scientific double talk hardly seems worth the trouble.

What does anger me, is the skewing of the evidence, to distort reason, to play on people's lack of understanding, because if you distort someone's reason in one thing, the more dubious their reasoning becomes in other things.

Classic projection.

What does anger me is (YECs) who try to argue against the position of (TEs), without taking time to understand the position they are opposing. "I only understand a little about evolution", is a position of ignorance for someone whose arguing against it.

There is not that much to know, the is evolution as science and the supposition that passes for real science.

Perhaps the biggest thing to anger me, is association. Every supposed minister of God, who preaches false doctrine, who robs their parishioners have always been YECs, or portray themselves as YECs. Every Christian that falls for these wolves in sheep's clothing, have all been YECs, and I am inclined to blame this on the dumbing down of reason, that prevents us from discerning the harlot from the saint.

The wolf in sheep's clothing is not hard to spot, he's not a sheep but a shepherd who does not care for the flock. The way you tell false doctrine is the lack of the genuine article of faith, that is the gospel.

It is remarkable that one TE after another comes in here with their inflammatory remarks and never show the slightest interest in the Gospel. You are a classic example.

 

[hithesh]

The wolf in sheep's clothing is not hard to spot, he's not a sheep but a shepherd who does not care for the flock. The way you tell false doctrine is the lack of the genuine article of faith, that is the gospel.

It is remarkable that one TE after another comes in here with their inflammatory remarks and never show the slightest interest in the Gospel. You are a classic example.

I do realize that my original post was harsh, and not so Christian-like, and I do not feel even a slight bit of anger at YECs on this forum, and I should not have generalized so harshly because of a few bad apples. It was more as a reaction to those few (who have also been quite vocal), that the post was written.

So, no ill will between us here.

 

[mark kennedy]

I do realize that my original post was harsh, and not so Christian-like, and I do not feel even a slight bit of anger at YECs on this forum, and I should not have generalized so harshly because of a few bad apples. It was more as a reaction to those few (who have also been quite vocal), that the post was written.

So, no ill will between us here.

We haven't gotten acquainted so lets start over. I am a Young Earth Creationist because I have been persuaded by the veracity of Scripture as history and as a primer for science. I have a sustained interest in scientific literature on the genetic basis for human evolution from apes which I consider a myth. The central focus of my reading is the unprecedented expansion of the human brain in size and complexity. Specifically the molecular mechanisms directly observed and demonstrated in molecular and evolutionary biology.

That said, I am not opposed to the theory of evolution as science. I am opposed to the Christianized version of evolution that calls creationism a wolf in sheep's clothing. You want to talk science and I am more then open to anything you bring to the table. On the other hand you start pushing inflammatory remarks about creationism being false doctrine we are going to be knee deep in Christian doctrine, the genuine article and the deception that denies it, or worse, simply ignores it.

 

[crawfish]

We haven't gotten acquainted so lets start over. I am a Young Earth Creationist because I have been persuaded by the veracity of Scripture as history and as a primer for science. I have a sustained interest in scientific literature on the genetic basis for human evolution from apes which I consider a myth. The central focus of my reading is the unprecedented expansion of the human brain in size and complexity. Specifically the molecular mechanisms directly observed and demonstrated in molecular and evolutionary biology.

That said, I am not opposed to the theory of evolution as science. I am opposed to the Christianized version of evolution that calls creationism a wolf in sheep's clothing. You want to talk science and I am more then open to anything you bring to the table. On the other hand you start pushing inflammatory remarks about creationism being false doctrine we are going to be knee deep in Christian doctrine, the genuine article and the deception that denies it, or worse, simply ignores it.

As a TE, I'd like to say that I don't see MOST Creationists as "wolves in sheep's clothing". I see them as people who honestly believe in the bible as they read it because of their faith, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Who I have problems with are the creationists who falsify data, use deceptive measures or outright lie in order to guide people against the science of evolution. Yes, I have BIGGER problems with them than the secular scientists who mislead about their own beliefs; quite frankly, because I hold Christians to a higher standard.

The problem with our two groups talking is very basic: creationists view the Bible as the absolute literal word, and any science that conflicts or denies it is automatically vilified and rejected. TE's tend to feel that the answer to the conflicts can be gained by re-evaluating what the scriptures mean in light of new discoveries. As a result, YEC's think TE's devalue doctrine because of their fluidity of understanding, while TE's think YEC's devalue scripture by applying meaning to it that cannot possibly be true.

In a nutshell, YEC's hold science to great scrutiny, while TE's hold both science and our understanding of the bible to equal scrutiny. I think both of us hold equal respect for the scriptures.

 

[shernren]

It is remarkable that one TE after another comes in here with their inflammatory remarks and never show the slightest interest in the Gospel. You are a classic example.

And the irony is that less than a day beforehand I made a post specifically discussing the human soul and its place in the Gospel. Whoever says TEs never show the slightest interest in the Gospel either doesn't know any TEs or never reads anything they write!

 

[mark kennedy]

As a TE, I'd like to say that I don't see MOST Creationists as "wolves in sheep's clothing". I see them as people who honestly believe in the bible as they read it because of their faith, and there's nothing wrong with that.

In all honesty I tend to feel the same way about Theistic Evolution as long as they affirm essential doctrine I don't really care if they take Genesis one literally or not.

Who I have problems with are the creationists who falsify data, use deceptive measures or outright lie in order to guide people against the science of evolution. Yes, I have BIGGER problems with them than the secular scientists who mislead about their own beliefs; quite frankly, because I hold Christians to a higher standard.

I have seen both sides of this issue lie but they won't be able to lie about their primary source material. With scientists its the peer reviewed scientific literature, they will get the numbers right there. For Christians it's the Scriptures, no writing from antiquity has been better preserved.

The problem with our two groups talking is very basic: creationists view the Bible as the absolute literal word, and any science that conflicts or denies it is automatically vilified and rejected. TE's tend to feel that the answer to the conflicts can be gained by re-evaluating what the scriptures mean in light of new discoveries. As a result, YEC's think TE's devalue doctrine because of their fluidity of understanding, while TE's think YEC's devalue scripture by applying meaning to it that cannot possibly be true.

I don't know what to tell you, I see no conflict between the genuine article of faith (as witnessed in the Scriptures) and the genuine article of scientific proof. This isn't about science, it's about philosophy. Natural science defines evolution as the change in the frequencies of alleles in populations over time. Evolution as natural history has no such limitation, it assumes common ancestry all they way back through prehistoric and primordial times. There is a huge difference.

In a nutshell, YEC's hold science to great scrutiny, while TE's hold both science and our understanding of the bible to equal scrutiny. I think both of us hold equal respect for the scriptures.

That is where we disagree completely. It is Darwinism that Creationism and Intelligent Design hold under great scrutiny, not science. I have never seen nor heard of a Creationist who has a problem with Mendelian Genetics. It is only Darwinism and the assumption of a single common ancestor down through time that we are skeptical about.

 

[crawfish]

That is where we disagree completely. It is Darwinism that Creationism and Intelligent Design hold under great scrutiny, not science. I have never seen nor heard of a Creationist who has a problem with Mendelian Genetics. It is only Darwinism and the assumption of a single common ancestor down through time that we are skeptical about.

Perhaps you feel that way, but there are also conflicts about the age and origins of the universe, global flood and historical accuracy of the Biblical accounts. More generically, some believe in a level of Bible literalness that precludes some scientific thought; if the science conflicts with that literal view of scripture, then the assumption is made that the science is wrong. Others of us feel that we should re-evaluate how we understand some scripture in such a way that it remains consistent with scientific discovery.

I'm certainly not saying there are disagreements with ALL science. There are many intelligent, well-educated scientists who happen to be Creationists.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Perhaps you feel that way, but there are also conflicts about the age and origins of the universe, global flood and historical accuracy of the Biblical accounts. More generically, some believe in a level of Bible literalness that precludes some scientific thought; if the science conflicts with that literal view of scripture, then the assumption is made that the science is wrong. Others of us feel that we should re-evaluate how we understand some scripture in such a way that it remains consistent with scientific discovery.

I'm certainly not saying there are disagreements with ALL science. There are many intelligent, well-educated scientists who happen to be Creationists.

What about historical accuracy? God's Word has been proven time and time again to be historically accurate.

 

[laptoppop]

One problem is that it is difficult to demonstrate historical accuracy before the time of Abraham. Fortunately, the geologic strata stand as gigantic testimony to the global flood -- showing accuracy through the account of Noah.

 

[Jase]

What about historical accuracy? God's Word has been proven time and time again to be historically accurate.

Has it? There is no evidence that millions of Jews ever wandered in the desert. Some of the prophecies aren't entirely accurate, like the destruction of Tyre.

 

[Jase]

One problem is that it is difficult to demonstrate historical accuracy before the time of Abraham. Fortunately, the geologic strata stand as gigantic testimony to the global flood -- showing accuracy through the account of Noah.

Pop, you keep saying that geology supports a global flood, and we keep showing you that it doesn't. There are dinosaur footprints and animal burrows in layers of sediment that would have had to have been laid down during the flood. How did dinosaurs walk under a mile of water, or animals make burrows and raise families while they were being covered with trillions of tons of water?

 

[laptoppop]

If you looked at past threads, you'd know my answer. Dino footprints are no problem -- the flood provides the perfect conditions (wet mud which is then covered with more sediment) to capture them. In fact, many dino footprint patterns *worldwide* show a pattern of *running* dinosaurs -- as if they were trying to escape. Burrows are also not a problem -- the current best explanation I have heard is that they were formed on floating mats of vegetation and soil which then get included in the fossil strata.

Once again - the flood did not instantaneously cover the earth like Scotty's transporter beam -- it took time to cover and time to recede. The strata we have is consistent with the entire complex event.