Why are we so hard on YECs?

[crawfish]

To add to my last post; God does defy human logic. Look at the story of God telling Israel to march around Jericho. Tell me that that is a logical way of fighting a battle.

I fully agree with this. God does defy logic and expectations, even to this day. That's exactly why I can believe that God had a different purpose in the creation story than what a literal reading would have you believe.

If we can make the claim that God might do things in a completely illogical manner in order to make a point, is it too far off to suggest that He might use moral stories rather than reality in His book to make the same points?

Sorry to take this into a different direction.

On the power issue: I think it's safe to say the Bible states that God is sovereign in Heaven and Earth, both the spiritual and material. I can't see that a literal, historical or metaphorical view of scripture would make this point any different.

 

[pastorkevin73]

The Bible says God can't lie or sin. The words used for omnipotence in Hebrew and Greek do not mean all-powerful.

Funny, since by his lack of help he's pushing me away. God has chosen not to help, so whether he can or not is irrelevant.

Your arguement is trying to split the hair. The Bible saying that God can't lie or sin has nothing to do with being all-powerful. What does sin have to do with creating the universe or healing the sick?

Sometimes we misinterprete God's seemingly lack of involvement in a situation as God pushing us away; when in reality He is standing there saying, "okay, are you ready to let me handle it now?" He just waites for us to to place the matter in His hands.

 

[pastorkevin73]

I fully agree with this. God does defy logic and expectations, even to this day. That's exactly why I can believe that God had a different purpose in the creation story than what a literal reading would have you believe.

If we can make the claim that God might do things in a completely illogical manner in order to make a point, is it too far off to suggest that He might use moral stories rather than reality in His book to make the same points?

Sorry to take this into a different direction.

On the power issue: I think it's safe to say the Bible states that God is sovereign in Heaven and Earth, both the spiritual and material. I can't see that a literal, historical or metaphorical view of scripture would make this point any different.

I really like what you have to say here.

 

[Jase]

Your arguement is trying to split the hair. The Bible saying that God can't lie or sin has nothing to do with being all-powerful. What does sin have to do with creating the universe or healing the sick?

Healing the sick or creating the universe don't require one to be all-powerful - merely most-powerful. Creating a rock too heavy to lift, or making a square circle would fit under the definition of all powerful, but those are illogical.

Sometimes we misinterprete God's seemingly lack of involvement in a situation as God pushing us away; when in reality He is standing there saying, "okay, are you ready to let me handle it now?" He just waites for us to to place the matter in His hands.

I've placed it in his hands numerous times. Still nothing.

 

[laptoppop]

I've placed it in his hands numerous times. Still nothing.

I understand. I got a ear infection that damaged the nerve in my ear and gave me loud tinnitus (ringing) in one ear. This has affected my ability to record/mix Christian music and especially my ability to run sound at my church. I don't understand all of God's reasons. I've asked Him to heal it, but so far, He has not.

Its hard -- but where else would I go? He is the source of all Truth -- and even when I'm mad at Him, I know that He loves me.

I'll be praying for you.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Healing the sick or creating the universe don't require one to be all-powerful - merely most-powerful. Creating a rock too heavy to lift, or making a square circle would fit under the definition of all powerful, but those are illogical.

I've placed it in his hands numerous times. Still nothing.

Creating a rock too heavy to lift is a faulty arguement against God being all-powerful. You can use such arguements all you want (all as old has the hills and twice as dusty) and the still are ineffective nor prove that God isn't all-powerful. You can continue this arguement, but it still doesn't change that God is all powerful and the Bible teaches this.

What it comes down to is as you wrestle with your faith you need to be open to God revealing Himself to you. Remember God wants to draw you closer to Himself, never away.

 

[shernren]

(all as old has the hills and twice as dusty)

(6000 years old, or billions of years old? )

 

[Assyrian]

Creating a rock too heavy to lift is a faulty arguement against God being all-powerful.

Agree to an extent. The argument that God can do anything is not effected by issues of square circle or lifting unliftables. My background is in science not logic or philosophy, but it strikes me that the 'square circle' is a meaningless self contradiction rather than a 'thing' so God doing 'anything' only includes 'things' not non thingy contradictory statements.

However a lot of things people say God can do 'because he is all powerful and can do anything' may fall under the category of meaningless contradictions, and they don't have to be as obvious as the unliftable lifted.

Laptoppop
Tinnitus is annoying, I know. But for someone in music and sound mixing? That is hard.

Jase, I'm praying for you. Just keep holding on. Keep trusting him even when you can't see any answer. He does lead us through the valley of the shadow of death and it is never easy, but he is there with us even when we cannot see him and the road seem to go on and on.

 

[Assyrian]

(6000 years old, or billions of years old? )

olam

 

[Jase]

Agree to an extent. The argument that God can do anything is not effected by issues of square circle or lifting unliftables. My background is in science not logic or philosophy, but it strikes me that the 'square circle' is a meaningless self contradiction rather than a 'thing' so God doing 'anything' only includes 'things' not non thingy contradictory statements.

Well that was my point. Omnipotent is a misnomer and in Hebrew and Greek, it is not accurate to say God can do anything. Pantokrater, the greek work for omnipotent in revelation does not mean all powerful - it means sovereign ruler over all creation. The Hebrew word for Almighty conveys a similar meaning, more akin to most-powerful as opposed to all powerful. I don't believe God can do that which is illogical or defies his own nature. By definition, that means he can't do everything. I even have a book called Christianity 101 that points out the very common misuse of the term omnipotent, especially among literalists/fundamentalists.

Jase, I'm praying for you. Just keep holding on. Keep trusting him even when you can't see any answer. He does lead us through the valley of the shadow of death and it is never easy, but he is there with us even when we cannot see him and the road seem to go on and on.

Thanks, although it's a lot easier to say when you aren't going through it, and numerous prayers from people haven't done anything. Guess i should enjoy posting here now incase i end up drifting away to the point of not meeting the requirements to post here.

 

[gluadys]

Well that was my point. Omnipotent is a misnomer and in Hebrew and Greek, it is not accurate to say God can do anything. Pantokrater, the greek work for omnipotent in revelation does not mean all powerful - it means sovereign ruler over all creation. The Hebrew word for Almighty conveys a similar meaning, more akin to most-powerful as opposed to all powerful. I don't believe God can do that which is illogical or defies his own nature. By definition, that means he can't do everything. I even have a book called Christianity 101 that points out the very common misuse of the term omnipotent, especially among literalists/fundamentalists.

I agree. I have had this conversation before too. I think it is especially important to note that God cannot act contrary to his own nature. And I would say the correct verb is "cannot" not "will not".

Another way to look at it is to say that God can do all things possible (consistent with his nature) but some things are logically impossible e.g. make a square circle or a four-sided triangle.

So strictly speaking "omnipotent" does not really mean "able to do anything", but "able to do anything which can be done". And one of the things that cannot be done is for God to act against his own nature.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Well that was my point. Omnipotent is a misnomer and in Hebrew and Greek, it is not accurate to say God can do anything. Pantokrater, the greek work for omnipotent in revelation does not mean all powerful - it means sovereign ruler over all creation. The Hebrew word for Almighty conveys a similar meaning, more akin to most-powerful as opposed to all powerful. I don't believe God can do that which is illogical or defies his own nature. By definition, that means he can't do everything. I even have a book called Christianity 101 that points out the very common misuse of the term omnipotent, especially among literalists/fundamentalists.

Thanks, although it's a lot easier to say when you aren't going through it, and numerous prayers from people haven't done anything. Guess i should enjoy posting here now incase i end up drifting away to the point of not meeting the requirements to post here.

Jase, don't give up hope. Remember that Jesus is our hope. He never gives up on us, so don't give up on yourself. You are His precious child and He loves you. Remember you can take anything and everything to Him; even your doubts and confusions. You can be completely open and honest with Him; He can handle it. I am and will continue to pray for you as you struggle. Blessings!

Lord Jesus, may Jase feel the warmth of your presence and love. May you show him just how much You love him and want to be close to him. Lord, help his unbelief. Amen!

 

[pastorkevin73]

(6000 years old, or billions of years old? )

Too funny! Good one shernren!