Why are we so hard on YECs?

[hithesh]

I noticed a few YECs in the "creationist" thread, seeming to feel bummed, that they are not taken seriously, that they are spoken to, harshly, and that they are constantly put down often.

From my own perspective, I have no problem with YECs, my father and mother are YECs, most of my friends are YECs, and most of them know that I am a (TE), and they don't attempt to steer me differently, because they know that they don't understand the science, and the evidence for evolution, so debating science with me, to prove (YEC) would be pointless to them, since their belief has nothing to do with science.

What does anger me, is the skewing of the evidence, to distort reason, to play on people's lack of understanding, because if you distort someone's reason in one thing, the more dubious their reasoning becomes in other things.

What does anger me is (YECs) who try to argue against the position of (TEs), without taking time to understand the position they are opposing. "I only understand a little about evolution", is a position of ignorance for someone whose arguing against it.

Perhaps the biggest thing to anger me, is association. Every supposed minister of God, who preaches false doctrine, who robs their parishioners have always been YECs, or portray themselves as YECs. Every Christian that falls for these wolves in sheep's clothing, have all been YECs, and I am inclined to blame this on the dumbing down of reason, that prevents us from discerning the harlot from the saint.

 

[Melethiel]

However, there is no need to resort to harshness and rhetoric when respectful dialogue is possible. Both sides are guilty of "crusading," if I may use the term, at times instead of discussing. I include myself in this - I have often spoken harshly when I shouldn't have.

 

[busterdog]

What does anger me, is the skewing of the evidence, to distort reason, to play on people's lack of understanding, because if you distort someone's reason in one thing, the more dubious their reasoning becomes in other things.

What does anger me is (YECs) who try to argue against the position of (TEs), without taking time to understand the position they are opposing. "I only understand a little about evolution", is a position of ignorance for someone whose arguing against it.

We are just trying to raise your pain threshold.

Hang in there.

 

[gluadys]

Perhaps the biggest thing to anger me, is association. Every supposed minister of God, who preaches false doctrine, who robs their parishioners have always been YECs, or portray themselves as YECs. Every Christian that falls for these wolves in sheep's clothing, have all been YECs, and I am inclined to blame this on the dumbing down of reason, that prevents us from discerning the harlot from the saint.

I would be hesitant to use this argument. Does it not depend, in part, on the greater visibility of YEC leaders in the media? Apart from Bishop Spong, how many non-YEC leaders have a major public profile? And I mean public, not academic. I know names like Crossan and Reuther and Myers, but I don't think they ring a bell in the public mind in the way that Falwell or Bakker or Haggard do.

So when the fall of a pastor is newsworthy, it is more likely to be a YEC leader than a non-YEC leader.

When we look at those who are not in the limelight, I don't know that we find much difference in the propensity of clergy to abuse the good faith of their flock regardless of their theological opinions.

And, thankfully, most clergy seem to resist the temptation to line their own pockets at the expense of their flock.

I think what would concern me most when a question of honesty arises is not theology, but the level of accountability that constrains a pastor. Where there is no one the pastor has to answer to (such as a bishop or presbytery) the opportunity to defraud is more readily available and the temptation accordingly stronger. Yet, lines of accountability are not a fail-safe guarantee either.

 

[laptoppop]

Perhaps the biggest thing to anger me, is association. Every supposed minister of God, who preaches false doctrine, who robs their parishioners have always been YECs, or portray themselves as YECs. Every Christian that falls for these wolves in sheep's clothing, have all been YECs, and I am inclined to blame this on the dumbing down of reason, that prevents us from discerning the harlot from the saint.

1) this is just flat out not true. There are jerks who are TEs, who are professors, who are accountants, who are liberal, who are conservative -- in other words they come in all flavors.
2) this is also just flat out insulting. Any TEs gonna step up to correct this one?

 

[KTatis]

I'm not to hard on YECist it's just that when ordinary people debate they tend to know both sides of the arguments. They know when they are wrong and have lost. But YEC thinks that they are always right because the Bible tells them they are right. It's just crazy! They are basically anti-intellectual. They can't think for themselves. They lack knowlage, resoning, and understanding just because they are afraid to lose their faith. It's like a little 5 year old telling you that Santa Claus is real and you just wanna go upside his head but you can't because he's your little cuz or he's cute when he dosen't know what hes talking about.

So my message to YEC is this... Please for the love of God open your eyes! BE MORE OPEN MINDED! The heck with these outrageous theories and what not. The key to life is knowlage not faith. Science is knowlage, Creation is faith. You can't walk into class and expect to have faith that your going to past your spelling test tomorrow (because its just plain out nonsense)- it's when you do your research and study for what it's worth that you'll know you'll pass for sure!

-Only knowlage can give you for what you need, while faith helps you assume it will be there.

 

[Scotishfury09]

That's a pretty bold statement:

"Every supposed minister of God, who preaches false doctrine, who robs their parishioners have always been YECs, or portray themselves as YECs."

Wow. The only person who has ever preached false doctrine and robbed their parishioners has been YEC? That's an extraordinarily outrageous claim.

 

[Scotishfury09]

So my message to YEC is this... Please for the love of God open your eyes! BE MORE OPEN MINDED! The heck with these outrageous theories and what not. The key to life is knowlage not faith. Science is knowlage, Creation is faith.

WHOA!? The key to life is knowledge not faith? What a gem. Thank you for the insight.

 

[Melethiel]

1) this is just flat out not true. There are jerks who are TEs, who are professors, who are accountants, who are liberal, who are conservative -- in other words they come in all flavors.
2) this is also just flat out insulting. Any TEs gonna step up to correct this one?

Seems gluadys already has.

 

[Melethiel]

WHOA!? The key to life is knowledge not faith? What a gem. Thank you for the insight.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Knowledge is certainly important, but is worthless without faith. (Look everyone! A TE agrees with a YEC!)

 

[Scotishfury09]

Yay!

 

[laptoppop]

Seems gluadys already has.

I didn't see her post before I posted. Thanks, Gluadys.

 

[hithesh]

I would be hesitant to use this argument. Does it not depend, in part, on the greater visibility of YEC leaders in the media? Apart from Bishop Spong, how many non-YEC leaders have a major public profile? And I mean public, not academic. I know names like Crossan and Reuther and Myers, but I don't think they ring a bell in the public mind in the way that Falwell or Bakker or Haggard do.

(TE)'s are quite independent, we don't search for figures or leaders to guide us in our understanding of the Word, we don't build museums, or build institutes to promote a (TE) world-view, we are more supportive of the idea "to each it's own". We are not afraid of "cognitive dissonance" in fact we actually welcome it, because this is how most of got to where we are at today. I'm not a (TE) because of personal preference, or even because you're a TE, because I can see the evidence on my own, and this is the conclusion that I have come to, if evidence arises that proves evolution as false, I suffer no loss, because the position holds no value to me, as it might for an atheist, or as 6 day creation does for the YEC.

I don't see reason as the harlot of Satan as Martin Luther does, but as an element of faith. I don't view science as a conspiracy to undermine the bible. And I believe the majority of us TEs feel the same, and it would be quite odd to find TEs that think differently.

While a YEC way of thinking cannot exist without dependency, and "group thinking", because to distort evidence and get away with it, you need the coddling of a community. You also need to depend on leaders such as Falwell, and Bakker to finance and propagate YEC science. (Also if you believe that there can be only "one" understanding of the word of God, then you have to give the power to a "few" to provide that "one" understanding.)Such leaders do so, and include there own agendas, into the mix.

The other day my parents received a letter from Coral Ridge Ministries, asking for money so that can create an anti-global warming video, and the logic being that if we as Christians support the thinking of the majority of scientist on an issue such as global warming, this will lead us to support them on issues such as evolution, and pretty soon we'll all be communist atheist.

To a YEC, this type of logic makes sense, because they YEC has to do this type of leaping to even formulate their views. So it's easy to promote destructive ideas in the church, when people are handicapped in thinking rationally.

 

[Melethiel]

(TE)'s are quite independent, we don't search for figures or leaders to guide us in our understanding of the Word... we are more supportive of the idea "to each it's own".

I really think whether this is true of a TE depends on one's church affiliation. Always be careful not to generalize (especially in the case of TEs, which come from all different backgrounds).

 

[Scotishfury09]

Where do you see that Coral Ridge Ministries takes the position of YEC?

 

[laptoppop]

Where do you see that Coral Ridge Ministries takes the position of YEC?

Actually, in all fairness, a look at the books on their website does support YEC.

That being said, Hithesh -- to imply that all YECs are just intellectual sheep is very insulting. Any TEs gonna stand up against this one? We can disagree respectfully without needing to insult each other. I am a YEC because I believe it is the best explanation for the physical evidence that we have and because it agrees with the explicit revelation of God -- NOT because some leader told me to believe in it.

 

[Melethiel]

hithesh, I daresay you might have a touch of overzealous convert syndrome.

 

[crawfish]

To be completely fair, anybody who is a charlatan using people is going to tend to go the "conservative route" - you can't take advantage of people if you offend them. This should not be used as a strike against the more conservative or their viewpoints - it's just the way things are. If evolution was the more popular viewpoint in the church, then the charlatans would be all for it.

On the original subject - I think the view of the creation is completely, totally irrelevant to salvation. God is concerned about your faith and response to His offer of grace, and very little with the particulars of theology.

HOWEVER: you care mostly about where you live, and I live among strong, independent thinkers and scientists. The type of people I encounter in my life simply cannot disregard facts as an act of faith - if a faith tells them that a blue sky is orange, then they will reject it. The fact that Creationism demands this mindset makes it very hard to discuss God's offer of grace with these people. I know that the acceptance of God's grace requires an act of faith and irrationality; however, I feel that irrationality is based on the unknown rather than disbelieving the proven.

I have no problem that people have YEC or OEC beliefs. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and I have a deep love for them, in fact. I have big problems, though, that they want to teach it in public schools and demonize the scientific process itself. To those ends, I find myself in an unfortunate fight with them.

 

[hithesh]

Where do you see that Coral Ridge Ministries takes the position of YEC?

Creation-evolution controversy: Kennedy is a Young Earth Creationist who rejects the theory of evolution and believes that it "led to the death of nine million people in Nazi Germany.... The greatest mass murderers of all time [are] all compliments of evolution." [6] , an idea reflected in Coral Ridge's controversial documentary Darwin's Deadly Legacy in 2006.

 

[Jase]

2) this is also just flat out insulting. Any TEs gonna step up to correct this one?

If I may interject, you seem to be calling out TE's to correct statements by other TE's in a couple of threads. Considering we've been asking Creationists to correct other creationists for a long time, and they never bother, why should we?

I can't count how many times someone on the creationist forum posts some strawman "proof" against evolution, and almost every single creationist cheers in arms at the defeat of the evil evolutionists over something they haven't even bothered to look into. I think busterdog is the only one i've seen actually question some of the nonsense posted by other creationists. No one else does.