Why are we flesh?

[iarwain]

Thus it provides ample opportunity for testing and purifying the spirit as gold is purified in a crucible.

So, this is a kind of training ground.

I was wondering if there might be some sort of test involved.

 

[timothyu]

I was wondering if there might be some sort of test involved.

He gives us a lifetime to decide whether our will based on self interest is better than His will of caring for each other. Plenty of time to check out the repercussions of both and choose which to follow. Good fruit makes for good wine while bad will be tossed.

 

[Tolworth John]

I would say only in that we more often put our will ahead of the will of the Father. The self interest overcame us when we became aware of ourselves.

That is a polite way of discribing outright hatred and rejection of All that God represents.

A sinner isan enemy of God.

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved

From Traditional Theology

To General Theology

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[fhansen]

If we are to live in the spirit, why are we made of flesh?
If the flesh is evil, what is the purpose of our being flesh?

The flesh isn't evil, it's created by God. But through the flesh we can come to understand our "creatureliness" as it's been put. Our bodies and our beings are extraordinary things, and yet fragile, dependent in order to be sustained, in order to exist. Man is not God; man needs God. That's what Adam didn't quite get in Eden. But that's what we can learn here now. And the flesh helps us do just that.

With God, the flesh can be controlled, as He designed it to be according to His wisdom. Apart from Him that's a losing battle. Man was made for communion with God. Then order and justice are restored. The flesh provides a test. How will we comport ourselves in these bodies, with our freedom? Will we finally choose union with God as we come to understand our abject poverty without Him?

 

[com7fy8]

If we are to live in the spirit, why are we made of flesh?

We are spiritual beings, but we live in physical flesh and blood bodies.

Our bodies are God's creation, not evil. And our bodies are made of what other things of this universe are made of . . . of God's physical creation.

If the flesh is evil, what is the purpose of our being flesh?

Again, we are not made of physical flesh, but we are spiritual in our being.

So, why do we have physical bodies? After all, we could be like angels who are all spiritual with no physical bodies.

One thing I think of is it was God's plan for man to have dominion over the creation. So, in order to do this, we have physical bodies which give us physical connection for managing the physical creation.

Being "in the flesh" is evil, we're supposed to live in the spirit.
So what is the purpose of the flesh?

Being in the physical flesh is not evil.

But God's word talks also about "the flesh" which is a person's fleshly nature, meaning a person's tendency to be mainly concerned about what one's physical flesh is doing . . . wanting to control and use the flesh for pleasures. The fleshly nature includes those passions for pleasure and ways of control in order to get it.

What is wrong is to be mainly interested in controlling and using physical things, versus mainly seeking God and staying submissive to Him in His peace.

So - - the Bible uses the word "flesh" to mean our physical flesh. And the Bible uses "flesh" as an image to mean the sinful nature and tendency to seek what the physical flesh can do to have pleasure and control. For example >

"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

Sinful "passions and desires" are of the heart which is spiritual. A physical body's flesh does not have spiritual "passions and desires". So, crucifying "the flesh", here, does not mean crucifying our physical flesh and blood bodies! It means to put to death the spiritual nature which has wrong interests with its drives and dominating and controlling emotions and negative and nasty ways of reacting in order to get what a person selfishly wants.

Numerous Bible verses that tell us we should live in the spirt and not in the flesh, because the desires of the flesh are bad. I'm paraphrasing there, and I can quote some specific verses if you want, but you probably know what I'm talking about.

But while we are living in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit has us living in our physical bodies. What is wrong is to live in the spiritual "flesh" which is the sin nature.

I'm sure that's part of the answer. I'm just thinking out loud here. God is spirit, eventually we will become spirit, why the need for the flesh? I'm going to add to give glory to God, since His material creation is evidence of His glory, even if the flesh is corrupt.

Well, again, our physical flesh is God's creation which is not evil. But the physical flesh can be corrupted, physically. But the corruption of sin is spiritual.

I was wondering if there might be some sort of test involved.

We get tested by physical things, and we need to not depend only on physical solutions, but trust God to do what He desires about each physical test.

But we also can be tested in our spirits, and we need to not go along with wrong ways of reacting and seeing things.

 

[bling]

If we are to live in the spirit, why are we made of flesh?
If the flesh is evil, what is the purpose of our being flesh?

Everything needs to start with the objective.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is a totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of Him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus, He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.



The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

This also shows a “need” for man to sin.

 

[timothyu]

That is a polite way of discribing outright hatred and rejection of All that God represents

That would suggest that all that do it, willingly or knowingly do it. Yet far too many churches don't even bother teaching the people why self awareness is the root of all our problems. Too much how and not enough why. If they understood how it led to self interest, self determination, self justification, etc and that all our woes are the result of someone's selfishness (more often than not our own), we might be more inclined to consider God's will over our own. But even those representing Christianity are hesitant to tell the people we are opposite in nature to the Kingdom and that we are naturally living contrary to His will and why.

People get the impression that gathering once a week somehow frees them of obligation to each other for the rest of the week where they can pursue their own will over the will of God, then get the weekly forgiveness come Sunday. Jesus called for outright repentance of self interest and that means total change towards the will of God through an understanding how our preferred ways have created a world contrary to the will of God. Not a popular concept to churches that wish to keep paying members. Easier to blame an outside source for our troubles.

 

[iarwain]

"the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot,". This flesh is the result of the fall.

That's a very interesting idea, the flesh is the result of the fall. Certainly the corruptible flesh is the result of the fall. Are our bodies different than the bodies before the fall? Or the same, but corrupted, perhaps. Not sure what the answer is, but it's interesting.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If we are to live in the spirit, why are we made of flesh?
If the flesh is evil, what is the purpose of our being flesh?

The Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, who is Himself God (One God, three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The flesh isn't evil, it's good. God declared all which He made good, that includes our bodies.

What the New Testament means by "the flesh" in its negative connotation has nothing to do with our skin and bones, but with the disordered passions of the flesh--our sin which both corrupts the body, soul, mind, heart, and even will of the person.

Our hope as Christians' isn't to spend eternity as disembodied ghosts in some place called "heaven"; it's the resurrection of our bodies at Christ's coming, and the renewal of all creation--physical creation.

We were created with bodies, we were created to be fully flesh-bodied human beings; our physicality is part of how we worship and honor God. Which is why Paul says, even to us who are mortal and sinful sinners, to offer our bodies as living sacrifices; and that what we do in the body matters. This world matters to God, the dirt you walk on, the trees you see, the mountains, the birds, the fields of grass, the seas with all its bounty large and small--it's all God's creation, His good creation. It matters to God, which is why He intends to rescue, redeem, and heal all of it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iarwain]

What the New Testament means by "the flesh" in its negative connotation has nothing to do with our skin and bones, but with the disordered passions of the flesh--our sin which both corrupts the body, soul, mind, heart, and even will of the person.

Those are the desires of our fleshly bodies though, so I wouldn't go so far to say that it has nothing to do with our skin and bones. We are called upon to deny our animal nature, at least in part, in favor of the spirit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those are the desires of our fleshly bodies though, so I wouldn't go so far to say that it has nothing to do with our skin and bones. We are called upon to deny our animal nature, at least in part, in favor of the spirit.

Holy Spirit. When the New Testament talks about living by the Spirit, it means the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Holy Trinity, whom Jesus said would be poured out and given to His Church.

When we are baptized and come to faith in Christ we receive the Holy Spirit (see Acts of the Apostles 2:38). And because we have received the Holy Spirit, even in the weakness of our mortal sinful flesh, we have the assurance and hope of what God has promised in Christ, even the very resurrection of our bodies (Romans 8:11). So we are called to live and walk in this faith, this hope, these things which we have received from the Holy Spirit. That is what is meant by walking in the Spirit.

It's not our spirit, but God's Spirit, Who lives and inhabits us, even these weak mortal bodies, as we read in 1 Corinthians 6:19.

In the resurrection, our bodies shall be raised up and also transformed, as the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 15. This body is sown a "soulish body" (soma psuchekos in Greek) and it is raised a "Spiritual body" (soma pneumatikos in Greek). So the contrast Paul makes isn't between flesh and spirit, but soul and spirit; the present body is called "soulish" (because it is sinful, mortal, and able to decay); but in the resurrection the body is glorified, transformed, this mortal must put on immortality, this decaying must put on the non-decaying. It is our very bodily flesh that is raised up and transformed. Not from physical to non-physical (recall, Jesus after His resurrection appeared to His disciples inviting them to touch and feel His physical body which still bore the wounds of His crucifixion, saying "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"). Even as Christ was raised up, so shall we.

We don't live according to our spirit, but according to the Holy Spirit; what we need is the continual and constant renewing of our spirit, our soul, our mind, our heart, everything about us. Thus God, by His grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit, even now is working on us transforming our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh; we are called to the daily renewal and transformation of our mind, to a life of faith and repentance.

The body is good, but the body is wounded and broken because of sin and death--which is why God is going to save our bodies, rescue our bodies, heal and redeem our bodies, in the resurrection. What God began in us and is doing now He will continue to do, and will fully accomplish and make perfect on the Last Day, when we are raised up from the dead, and share in the fullness of the life of the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iarwain]

We don't live according to our spirit, but according to the Holy Spirit

Yes, just to be clear, I never said we were to live according to our own spirit.

 

[Levi]

Where would you get the idea that being "of the flesh" is evil?

Perhaps iarwain is referring to the flesh wanting, being tempted by sinful things, lusts or desires. Sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries etc

 

[timothyu]

Perhaps iarwain is referring to the flesh

Our basic animal instincts overriding our spiritual nature?

 

[Jamdoc]

If we are to live in the spirit, why are we made of flesh?
If the flesh is evil, what is the purpose of our being flesh?

Flesh was not inherently evil. We made it evil.
But God made us corporeal beings because He made a physical universe and we are made in His image to live in that physical universe, to have dominion over it.
We messed that up.

and while yes I know the new testament teaches the flesh vs the spirit, while on this fallen world, in mortal corruptible bodies.
However,
The promise to us is that we will be resurrected, in flesh, and God will restore the original plan, a physical earth, that we live on and have Dominion on, in physical bodies that are not corruptible, in a world that is not fallen.
Jesus was resurrected in flesh, so there is a kind of flesh that is not evil.

Luke 24

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus is 100% God but also 100% man. He is our federal head, He reclaimed dominion over creation for us, and shares dominion with us.

Revelation 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 3

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We're meant for more than to just sing psalms as spirits in heaven.
We're meant to keep His physical creation
and for that we need physical bodies.