Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

Ygrene Imref said:

Of course. I think I even said I come off like an a hole for my energy in discussion and argument. I am beyond the validation and acceptance of people - precisely because I was ALWAYS thinking too much until it benefited someone or their situations. I like thinking. But, I don't think anyone can think too much.

I fully understand this makes me look arrogant, also, which is why I never give my age, or credentials when I talk about things with other people. I am a fine argumentative opponent until I begin to lay out the foundation from which my thought process and mentality come from. Then, even if stated matter of factly, I become an arrogant know it all. Can't win; so my philosophy is to not even play that game in the first place.



I agree that trying to figure out everything in a finite vessel is ludicrous. The physics alone won't allow for it, and would categorically explode you. I have also been told I have an answer for everything, which I don't believe. But, what is basically being said is, "well, I can't help since you THINK you know everything." Which, is why I am not unapologetic about how I am perceived; I can't change anyone's mind - and I have tried in my more "green" years to do that/please others. I have even done what you said NOT to do, and pretend to be dumb just to make others around me feel better about themselves. But, it always demerited me.

There is a House episode where this genius purposefully takes medication to retard his intellect - since the love of his life was not "as 'intellectually' strong." Then, he became sick because, as a genius, he took some other medication to offset the side-effects of the medication he was taking to be "regular." And, of course they interacted badly. I have actually thought about doing something like that and reverting into my own hole since it is damned if I am smart, and damned if I am dumb. And, get this: this is in spite of the fact that I truly believe we are all geniuses. I have often said this to others, and for some reason that offends. Cordiality is becoming more of a futility in practice, since it is assumed everyone has an agenda. That is the world we live in now.

But, over many existential anx philosophical discussions with myself, my parents and Creator, I no longer care (which, is much more profound than it sounds.)





Yep. I used to wish I was never born, and used to shake my fist at God - and it does leave you feeling hopeless.

Which, is why I don't care anymore - and I actually meant it when I said that I am completely indifferent about existing. To me, life is a job to do before I get to go somewhere else. There are many very attractive distractions; procreation to me is one of them. That is not to say in 10, 25, or 50 years, God willing, I won't change my mind. But, I am starting to appreciate the security in an "immutability" of mind. So, I doubt my mind would change.



You reasoned that you can change certain things about your life, and it's progress, no?



Absolutely not. At best, I want to be content. In fact, I really dont emote anymore by choice (and, a lot of hard mental work to keep emotions in a certain psychological place.) Emotions, to me, have their cliche moments and uses, but for the most part they are one of the most exploitable characteristics humans have.




I doubt it; would your Commanding Officer care if you are happy about your mission? Or, would He care about the mission, and then address the emotions thereof? I tend to think the latter - especially when studying the approach of God to His creation in general. It is my belief that the real happiness is reserved for an eternity such that it can never be waned, or influenced by distractions and pains.



(Here I go with an answer to everything again, but) I have; and He has done exactly what you have said. But, that comes with a price of loneliness, alienation and isolation for now. That is something that I am perfectly fine with. In fact, I enjoy it now that my glasses have absolutely no tint, and fit my "perscription" perfectly.

Part of the reason why I am unconcerned about this life, as we know it, is because I actually fight demons... real (reality warped, perhaps) melee with these entities. I have been fighting literal spiritual battles that have, by comarison, made life seem like the dream, or distraction. I know there is plenty beyond the dimension of this life as we know it, and it is my own personal fight. So, nothing scares me, nothing of life really surprises me; and, I myself am not concerned with happiness and "fun" in life.

It would seem that would be a bleak and dry way of living, but ironically it is more living than I have ever experienced in any of my years before.

I want the fog of war to dissipate - and when it does and we all get to resurrection, I will begin to emote correctly. But, I know in this imperfect vessel, what I want is always a trap. Which, is why I don't have any problem with navigating through the trenches until the fog of war is over.


With all of that said, I already love my children - and have plans for them. But, I won't create them on my own choice, because of what I believe. Again, I am not saying it won't happen. I am a philosophical cynic, so I am not "longing" for love and happiness, but I won't reject it is it is "forced" on me. I fell in love once - by accident. I experienced that human experience, and I honestly don't feel the need to experience it again. I would rather continue to experience the rest of the spectrum of human life that challenges me. (This is another reason why I don't see myself having children.)

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Ygrene Imref said:

I am fully aware of the difference between the real church, and an apostate lie.

Unfortunately, there is only a subtle difference for Christianity, as it were.



The reality is that many FRONTS of charity and philanthropy exploit Christianity. Knowing the history and origin of many crusades, philanthropic measures and campaigns for morality, again there is a subtle difference of transparency and genuineness that separates the Church from an apostate.



I agree and at the base I would laud the people, not the organization(s) that exploit those good works for the betterment of the name of the organization.



I agree. But, people are not Christ; that goodness is not good all of the time. Those times when goodness evades humanity is when "we" show how fantastically capable we are at destruction, death and corruption.

So, until that changes, I reserve the right to bring my child into that type of world. If it doesn't change until He puts His feet on the land and sea, then so be it. I am perfectly fine with that, and I would think my future children would appreciate the thought I put into their existence to be. Even if they dont, that is a non issue: like God does what is best for us despite our grumblings, I am doing what is best for my unborn child.

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cuja1 said:

There's so much in this post that I thought was neat I probably won't be able to talk about. But I'll try.

I think it's healthy to not be concerned with whether people validate or accept you or not. As long as you don't become bitter about it. I have, and it's not a good place to be.

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I agree with you about being happy. I kind of knew that I shouldn't have used that word. Contentment is good. The Bible talks about having joy in all circumstances. I'm not really sure what that is but it sounds like a good thing.

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I do think God wants us to be happy in our mission. Wouldn't that make Him a good commanding officer? I'm glad you believe in God, at least it sounds like you believe in Him. I almost would have thought that your propensity to think might lead you to the conclusion that He doesn't exist.

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When I suggested that you pray, I probably should have added the disclaimer that sometimes God has to make our lives worse before He can make it better.

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Do you believe in real demons? I do. In fact I believe it was the devil telling me that it would be better to kill myself and get it over with. That's how insidious the devil is. So I probably sound like a nut at this point but I think it's true.

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I can't say I really disagree with anything you said except that over thinking can be a detriment at times if it leaves you in a state of mental agony. At that point I'd say it's best to stop thinking about it unless something positive can be achieved by thinking about it.

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I continue to ask God for wisdom, faith, truth, and salvation. I would just hope that you would continue to present your needs to God as I believe that it sets something positive in motion.

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So, I guess what you've been trying to say is that it is immoral to continue to have children? It's a valid point. I find your reasoning to make sense. I'll leave it to others to debate that if they wish. I for one would think it wrong to have children if you really thought that you were bringing them into a wretched existence where their only choice was to conform or burn for eternity. But then, my guess is that not many people are really thinking about all the implications of having a child (and many children aren't planned by the parents at all of course)

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Galatea said:

Do you subscribe to the belief that the Kingdom of God can be brought into existence before the second coming of Christ?

If so, then I suppose you are waiting for a perfect society before having children.

I guess most of us believe that the world will never be perfect until after the coming of Christ.

Anyway, I know there are people who do count the cost before having children and decide that it is worth the risk. I would quote the many verses about the blessings of children, but as they are in the Old Testament, I suppose they would not bolster my claim that having children in this present world is a blessing.

I would say that Jesus finds them precious, Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for such is the kingdom of Heaven.

I guess my position is by not having children, they are nonexistent- so are denied Heaven.

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Ygrene Imref said:

And, you are perfectly within your right to have kids; you don't need me to approve as I am sure you know and agree. I wouldn't think they would hate or despise you for having them if you have taught them. They may have a phase, but that will pass.

For me, I choose to completely abstain. Besides being an alleged "anatalist," which isnt exactly right, there are many other spiritual reasons for which I choose not to have children, and why I responded and invested in this thread.

There are a lot of people who have been admonished on a fundamental/spiritual level because of the belief that we should be breeding for Christ no matter what. Even Christ says some people will not marry "for the sake of the kingdom." I don't think that is so "spiritual," in my experience it is a matter of fact statement.

Some people have "other priorities," understand their limits in terms of temptation, and/or simply just want to focus on God.

I was not admonishing anyone who has kids now. I am challenging the status quo on how and why we procreate: that there should be more to it than what is usually presented, since it not only affects the life of another person, but their afterlife also.

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dc87 said:

This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

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Ygrene Imref said:

I used to be bitter about it - until I literally saw myself age (as I said before, I am "relatively" young.) It isn't a good place.



I more or less knew what you meant, but for the sake of the "audience," I responded the way I did for clarity of position. In fact, I think most spiritually aligned believers - even more "spiritual" people in general - understand happiness is not a realistic goal anyway.

Despite my answer, I still don't know what full contentment is - which shouldn't be surprising since I am not perfected yet.



You are right, and I get/got you. As said, I just responded the way I did for clarity of point. But you are right, I also believe God wants us to be happy. I just don't think He would care if we were given whatever our missions are.

For example, I don't think it was a particular fun thing for John The Baptist to be called the equivalent of a "bug-eating, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists who likes to dunk naked adults in rivers on the thought of some Messiah coming sometime in the future." Could you imagine the "hell" a contemporary John The Baptist would go through today - even and especially from believers? Very few people were willing to entertain him, let alone believe him.

In terms of thinking leading away from Him - I wanted to deeply respond to this.

You would think that with more learning of higher math, science, philosophy, history and mythos, one would be pretty far from Him. I tend to agree somewhat; an increase in worldly knowledge can certainly set one up for an ego "high" that drives the person further from God.

But, with me, it gave me all but PROOF of His existence the more math and science I learned. It didn't hurt that I was exposed to the reality of the spiritual world either, but that began when I was an ambivalent agnostic.

I don't really need to much faith because I "cheated;" I know He exists more or less on intellect. So, a lot of ignorance of Him that may seem to come easy for others - the crises of faith, and journey of Him and His purpose - is a luxury that I am not afforded.



I got you. And, He did for me. I don't think it is necessary to break everyone for them to be right(eous.) But, with me He had.



Believe in them... I fight them. And, that is not to boast: it is absolutely exhausting to dream lucidly and contend with them (in every sense,) and then to have the veil of reality reduce in cloudiness more and more over time (where you recognize on a sensate level these entities.) To me, you don't sound like a nut, but I can see why you would have that apprehension. Demons are something many Christians don't believe in.

If you want me to be candid, I think that every single person is crazy (and, yes, a genius.) You have to be a certain measure of crazy to ignore this world as it is, and want to continue through it. But, on a general level everyone's crazy has a match, and when these matches come together they create something extremely special (bands of friends, mates, family, etc.) You may not be able to handle my crazy, and vice versa - which is why my cross is mine, and yours is yours.



I agree, but I am also insane, so at this point it would do more damage for me not to think, especially when it gets to that point. I think God knows I can take it, which is why I am the way I am. Even in dreamstate, I don't stop thinking because I dream lucidly. I even have "picture in picture" dreams where I am going through the motions of the dream, but I am thinking about something on the outside (breakfast, a mathematic problem, what I said to *that* person yesterday, etc.)




I asked God to give me the faith of the biblical heroes - to be able to have faith in even the worst of states and times. I also asked for wisdom to do what He wanted as opposed to me, and deliverence.

He broke me to the point I am building that "faith" seemingly exponentially. He gave me almost too much wisdom (like, the wisdom to connect intellect with the reality of creation and the spirit for example) I almost wanted to tell Him to back off a bit. And, for the delivered cell that I thought was a thorn in the side like Paul describes, He showed me that all I had to do was change my thinking. He didn't "fix" me.



I don't think it is so much immoral as it is possibly reckless, or ignorant. That doesn't sound much better, but yes it comes down to knowing the intricacies of a decision before making it.

If you know and believe the fullness of your decision has dire cosequences, then it would immoral. But, most people do not consider the consequences of procreation in the world as we now it at any time in history. I think it is because of the cliche that there is no ideal time to have a child, and so we throw arms in the air and procreate anyway. Other people may know full well the consequences, and choose to procreate anyway - maybe because they believe they can protect the child(ren,) and that the love they have for the child(ren) will be more than enough.

With all that I think I know, I cannot have kids until the world changes for the better. But, we know the world is headed for degeneracy. My choice, therefore is to stay as I am.

But, I am not damning people who have children, or choose to procreate. I am challenging the thinking (if there is any at all) that would compel someone to bring a child into the world as it is.

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least said:

I can certainly respect that. My concern with the OP is in demanding answers from God. My hope is that he will humble himself before God and receive the salvation offered through Christ.

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cuja1 said:

I like the way you think. You seem like someone I could sit around and talk about philosophy with for a few hours.

Looks like my phone battery is about to wear out. Take care and have a nice weekend.

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Ygrene Imref said:

I was being "cheeky" on purpose when I said, "...until that changes." I know it won't change until He puts His feet on the land and sea, so I am therefore never having children. Sort ofike when He says His word will pass when Heaven and Earth pass away. They wont; so neither will His word. They will change, but they are founded.

When the kingdom comes, and I am worthy to get resurrected, then I won't need to "marry/procreate" anyway.

Children are blessings, but look at the world: clearly we don't nurture our blessings. I know how I would raise my children; I don't know how the world raises theirs. And, I love mine too much to have a kid in this world.

That is not a dig at anyone who chooses to have children; I cannot do it with the information I *believe* I know. It may not even be for *me* to procreate - a strong rationale and resolve put in my by God for some reason. So, I do want to be careful in insinuating those that have children are "evil, immoral, or idiots." I am speaking fr the perspective of a person who has been on both sides, even been damned and told I was going to hell for choosing not to procreate. My parents are Perfect, yet I still somehow got exposed to "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and vinegar" in ways that influenced my thinking before God snatched me. So, knowing the incredible uphill spiritual and terrestrial fight I went through with "perfect" parents, I making a decision based on a philosophy of life I have experienced and developed for myself.

And when I say they were perfect, I mean they were so perfect that they let God parent me when they felt like they hit an instructional empass.

But, seriously I also know that I am doing all of this planning knowing full well that God may be laughing, and that He has His own plan. I fell in love - accidentally, because I wanted no parts of the distraction, but it wasn't my choice. So, it is possible that tomorrow, next year, or in a decade I may be singing another tune. I am also fully aware that things happen, and this reality is hary conventional or predictable. So, I am not going to reject love, and the consequences thereof (i.e. procreation.) In fact, when I "accidently" fell in love, children were a given and I was already picking out real estate and furniture. And, my mentality on procreation wasn't much different than it is today. (Love truly is its own type of insanity.)

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Galatea said:

I think I understand your position. It is incredible that love does change your plans. The two becoming one flesh is an extremely powerful force.

I am very glad you are not rejecting love and its possible consequences.

God bless you, very much.

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dc87 said:

Ok.... time for a full disclosure:

Salvation as explained by others is an on-going thing. For a human to continue pursuit of something there has to be a need.

I have been struggling with the feeling of NOT having enough guilt because I cannot seem to feel guilty for sins committed in a life/occupation/car (whatever analogy you want) not chosen by me. Therefore I feel that if I can come to understand why we are held accountable for something we never chose to be apart of then it will help me to be more "humbled" as you say and feel more guilty about sin and therefore feel more need for forgiveness and Christ.

Also, my son passed away a while ago and Ygrene has opened the floor to another question that coincides with my OP - why would you have children if they are bound to be accountable for a life not chosen?

There I said it.

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