Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

dc87 said:

I understand why the molder made man. To prove to satan that He is Love.

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Hello OP, can you please show the scriptural references you draw in support of this idea? It indicates to me that your faith has been built upon doctrines that do not come from God. If you are serious about solving this problem and having a peace about God and life (as you should), we need to get analytical in this way.

Ygrene Imref said:

You can be as ecstatic as you like having a child, or a surrogate. That doesn't mean any of the questions raised are considered.

Again, feelings and romanticism are how demons, for example, exploit human condition. Just look at what happened to Moshe; he lost out on the Promised Land For emotional thinking.

And, all of this still doesn't answer the reality of having chden in a world that is hellacious at best. You really think this planet is an environment suitable to thrust your offspring into - especially given the CURSE we live under?

Why are we thinking with feelings instead of reason when it comes to children? When did the paradigm shift so much that people become offended by someone who challenges the idea of blind and rose-tinted procreation?

And, did HOPE not come out of Pandora's box of evils? Humans romanticize hope so much, we forget how to apply it properly, and that it came out of a bin of horrors by the logic of our own mythos that created it.

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I don't accept the Greek myth of Pandora's Box as being true. God created hope. Yes, the Earth is under a curse, yes humans can go to Hell if they are not saved.

I am saying that Christians know that Christ is still in the business of saving people and if they raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and provoke not their children to wrath (as the New Testament commands Christian parents in Ephesians), then their children may come to know Christ as Saviour.

I cited Timothy, who apparently had a believing mother and grandmother, but an unbelieving father. Timothy was a pastor and a great comfort to Paul. He was one of the people Paul wanted to see before he was executed.

There is no guarantee that a child will become a Timothy, a Christian, but there is also no guarantee that your hypothetical children are doomed to Hell.

Ygrene Imref said:

It is a gamble most people are willing to take because they are not the offspring produced.

But I think I just got a good dose of confirmation based on many of the responses on this thread and another one.

It isn't sad at all; this world lies to itsfind about its "goodness." My kids are fine where they are; in fact now I have more reason to my own rhyme.

I actually appreciate this because I came into this OP uncertain about a few things. But, not now.

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Would you prefer not to exist? Or do you like existing?

Galatea said:

I don't accept the Greek myth of Pandora's Box as being true. God created hope. Yes, the Earth is under a curse, yes humans can go to Hell if they are not saved.

I am saying that Christians know that Christ is still in the business of saving people and if they raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and provoke not their children to wrath (as the New Testament commands Christian parents in Ephesians), then their children may come to know Christ as Saviour.

I cited Timothy, who apparently had a believing mother and grandmother, but an unbelieving father. Timothy was a pastor and a great comfort to Paul. He was one of the people Paul wanted to see before he was executed.

There is no guarantee that a child will become a Timothy, a Christian, but there is also no guarantee that your hypothetical children are doomed to Hell.

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Which is why I am choosing not to gamble at all.

As I said several times before, I am fine with the conditions of life since I am already here; I don't hold resentment or anger for being born. But, I also don't see any real point in having children (especially in a time of racist, tyrannical, deceitful, murderous, unloving and malevolent paradigms that are taken to be truth and love.)

Galatea said:

Would you prefer not to exist? Or do you like existing?

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I am completely indifferent to existence, as it is.

It doesn't matter what I think about my existence as it is now anyway, because I am here and I don't control my life; everything has already happened that will happen, and this "existence" is just the down time. So, I honestly don't care - which is why I have been trying to focus on people who are not born yet, rather than those of us who are here.

Ygrene Imref said:

I am completely indifferent to existence, as it is.

It doesn't matter what I think about my existence as it is now anyway, because I am here and I don't control my life; everything has already happened that will happen, and this "existence" is just the down time. So, I honestly don't care - which is why I have been trying to focus on people who are not born yet, rather than those of us who are here.

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First, I don't think your as completely indifferent as you suggest, because, well, here you are having this conversation. Just a thought...

Also, on whether or not we should bring children into this world, as a Christian, we are directed to propogate the gospel. And would it not be wise to have children in the world who are raised to, at a minimum, bring some balance between the godly and the godless? Now we know that in the end things will be very bad, but that doesn't nullify our responsibility to be fruitful and multiply.

Ygrene Imref said:

I am completely indifferent to existence, as it is.

It doesn't matter what I think about my existence as it is now anyway, because I am here and I don't control my life; everything has already happened that will happen, and this "existence" is just the down time. So, I honestly don't care - which is why I have been trying to focus on people who are not born yet, rather than those of us who are here.

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You say you are relatively young, why do you think everything that will happen to you has happened to you?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you sound defeated.

I think there are things you can control.

Ygrene Imref said:

Which is why I am choosing not to gamble at all.

As I said several times before, I am fine with the conditions of life since I am already here; I don't hold resentment or anger for being born. But, I also don't see any real point in having children (especially in a time of racist, tyrannical, deceitful, murderous, unloving and malevolent paradigms that are taken to be truth and love.)

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Your list of paradigms does not include Christianity, but your choice is yours, of course. I'd argue that ancient Greece and Rome were much more hellacious civilizations than the Western world, now.

least said:

First, I don't think your as completely indifferent as you suggest, because, well, here you are having this conversation. Just a thought...

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That is because I am having to explain myself several times for the same points. I said exactly what I meant every time I posted - including when I said I was indifferent to my existence.

I may not be indifferent to this THREAD, but this THREAD is not my life.

Also, on whether or not we should bring children into this world, as a Christian, we are directed to propogate the gospel. And would it not be wise to have children in the world who are raised to, at a minimum, bring some balance between the godly and the godless? Now we know that in the end things will be very bad, but that doesn't nullify our responsibility to be fruitful and multiply.

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Someone already saved the world: why are more human vessels going to save the world even more?

And, you can bring the Gospel many fold over the Internet, for example. Or, by pilgrimage and mission.

You don't have to breed to spread the gospel, especially if that is your purpose for breeding. You do NOT know what your child will turn into - which is one of my points in this emotionalism of procreation - especially when we try to suggest "it is for God."

No, it is for the person. Someone already saved the world.

dc87 said:

This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

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dc87 said:

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

He created me, gave me a spirit im supposed to make sure conforms to his destinity - otherwise im doomed. gee.... thanks :/ so gracious of You. Sometimes im like... can I go back to not existing.... no? k... thanks for nothing! (i say that sarcastically today but not always)

What am I not realizing?

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Well, here's the thing. I cannot be 100% sure that I didn't ask to be born. It's just as possible that I did as it is that I didn't. Scripture quotes God as saying "Before you were born, I knew you." So evidently the concept of existing prior to -- and independently of -- one's current physical state is, at the very least, a possibility.

Either way, though, that whole "follow Me or else" mentality doesn't sound worthy of a Divine being. I suspect it was something humans injected into the narrative in order to keep their congregations in line. Besides, more than one religion plays that head-game with its adherents, so that's another clue it's probably not about following God correctly, but instead about crowd-control.

This is not to say that there aren't consequences for our actions, but those consequences are already Divinely built into this universe's infrastructure, making any kind of additional cosmic retribution for those actions rather pointless and redundant.

hengesthorsa said:

Fair question.

You'll get a lot of different answers about just how God "holds you accountable." There are Christians who believe in a form of universal reconciliation. You could hear more about this on the subforums for specific faiths.

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^Yes, this.

Galatea said:

You say you are relatively young, why do you think everything that will happen to you has happened to you?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you sound defeated.

I think there are things you can control.

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I mean the fabric of eternity is already written for all of us: whatever is SUPPOSED to happen will happen.

It isn't a defeatist attitude; in fact it is liberating. Instead of me fighting what God has already founded, I don't worry about what will be, or what is (despite what I do or don't do) because it is already written. And, nothing I do can thwart the plans of God. Nothing.

So, instead of believing the Western romanticism that stipulates that "I control my destiny," I choose to believe my "destiny" is a misnomer at best, and that is already laid out for me.


How do you think Moses had his transfigured body with clothing of light appearing to Christ if the Judgment has not taken place yet?

Time is not a real thing; it is the number of hyper fine transitions in a radioactive atom - that is the standard definition of time for the world. It is linear. But, real time is to toroidal; whatever will happen has already happened.

I am at peace with that.

If I wasnt, I would be trying to change the world for the better, and stressing myself out about the cares of this planet. It is all futility - people running amok pretending to be gods before they learn how to spiritually walk.

Part of that peace is not being defined by, or compelled to procreate - and having the assumed luxury of being content with myself alone.

Galatea said:

Your list of paradigms does not include Christianity, but your choice is yours, of course. I'd argue that ancient Greece and Rome were much more hellacious civilizations than the Western world, now.

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Christianity, as it were, is one of the most malevolent paradigms of all. It has taken plenty of souls through false teaching, quantifiable guilt trips, murder, lies, war, and so on.

I didn't include "Christianity," because I thought we knew what "it" has done. Every other day someone posts a thread about the guilt they feel, the worry of going to hell, or the absence and silence from God. Most people in one way or another simply tell those people it is their fault.

So, every single thing on this planet - to be complete - is malevolent. And, if you think anything on this planet is actually good, you have been deceived. There is nothing "good" but God, because nothing else does nothing but good 100% of the time.

Ygrene Imref said:

Christianity, as it were, is one of the most malevolent paradigms of all. It has taken plenty of souls through false teaching, quantifiable guilt trips, murder, lies, war, and so on.

I didn't include "Christianity," because I thought we knew what "it" has done. Every other day someone posts a thread about the guilt they feel, the worry of going to hell, or the absence and silence from God. Most people in one way or another simply tell those people it is their fault.

So, every single thing on this planet - to be complete - is malevolent. And, if you think anything on this planet is actually good, you have been deceived. There is nothing "good" but God, because nothing else does nothing but good 100% of the time.

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Has anyone ever told you that you think too much? I've been told that before. I'm not saying you should try to be stupid but to me trying to figure everything out was just a maze that i could never get out of and left me angry with God.

To be honest many times I've wished I was never born and hated God for forcing me into this "game" of choosing right or wrong at the threat of eternal torture. It leaves you feeling quite hopeless. But I keep holding on hoping that the next road is one that leads to salvation.

I figured I might as well kill myself and go to hell now since I'm probably going there anyway. But then it occurred to me that at least while I'm alive, I have the chance to maybe not go to hell.

You want to be happy right? I think God wants that for you too. If you are willing, just take your concerns to God, ask Him to bless you and to give you what you need for salvation and let it go. Over time God will change you in ways that you never dreamed were possible.

cuja1 said:

Has anyone ever told you that you think too much?

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Of course. I think I even said I come off like an a hole for my energy in discussion and argument. I am beyond the validation and acceptance of people - precisely because I was ALWAYS thinking too much until it benefited someone or their situations. I like thinking. But, I don't think anyone can think too much.

I fully understand this makes me look arrogant, also, which is why I never give my age, or credentials when I talk about things with other people. I am a fine argumentative opponent until I begin to lay out the foundation from which my thought process and mentality come from. Then, even if stated matter of factly, I become an arrogant know it all. Can't win; so my philosophy is to not even play that game in the first place.

I've been told that before. I'm not saying you should try to be stupid but to me trying to figure everything out was just a maze that i could never get out of and left me angry with God.

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I agree that trying to figure out everything in a finite vessel is ludicrous. The physics alone won't allow for it, and would categorically explode you. I have also been told I have an answer for everything, which I don't believe. But, what is basically being said is, "well, I can't help since you THINK you know everything." Which, is why I am not unapologetic about how I am perceived; I can't change anyone's mind - and I have tried in my more "green" years to do that/please others. I have even done what you said NOT to do, and pretend to be dumb just to make others around me feel better about themselves. But, it always demerited me.

There is a House episode where this genius purposefully takes medication to retard his intellect - since the love of his life was not "as 'intellectually' strong." Then, he became sick because, as a genius, he took some other medication to offset the side-effects of the medication he was taking to be "regular." And, of course they interacted badly. I have actually thought about doing something like that and reverting into my own hole since it is damned if I am smart, and damned if I am dumb. And, get this: this is in spite of the fact that I truly believe we are all geniuses. I have often said this to others, and for some reason that offends. Cordiality is becoming more of a futility in practice, since it is assumed everyone has an agenda. That is the world we live in now.

But, over many existential anx philosophical discussions with myself, my parents and Creator, I no longer care (which, is much more profound than it sounds.)

To be honest many times I've wished I was never born and hated God for forcing me into this "game" of choosing right or wrong at the threat of eternal torture. It leaves you feeling quite hopeless. But I keep holding on hoping that the next road is one that leads to salvation.

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Yep. I used to wish I was never born, and used to shake my fist at God - and it does leave you feeling hopeless.

Which, is why I don't care anymore - and I actually meant it when I said that I am completely indifferent about existing. To me, life is a job to do before I get to go somewhere else. There are many very attractive distractions; procreation to me is one of them. That is not to say in 10, 25, or 50 years, God willing, I won't change my mind. But, I am starting to appreciate the security in an "immutability" of mind. So, I doubt my mind would change.

I figured I might as well kill myself and go to hell now since I'm probably going there anyway. But then it occurred to me that at least while I'm alive, I have the chance to maybe not go to hell.

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You reasoned that you can change certain things about your life, and it's progress, no?

You want to be happy right?

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Absolutely not. At best, I want to be content. In fact, I really dont emote anymore by choice (and, a lot of hard mental work to keep emotions in a certain psychological place.) Emotions, to me, have their cliche moments and uses, but for the most part they are one of the most exploitable characteristics humans have.

I think God wants that for you too.

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I doubt it; would your Commanding Officer care if you are happy about your mission? Or, would He care about the mission, and then address the emotions thereof? I tend to think the latter - especially when studying the approach of God to His creation in general. It is my belief that the real happiness is reserved for an eternity such that it can never be waned, or influenced by distractions and pains.

If you are willing, just take your concerns to God, ask Him to bless you and to give you what you need for salvation and let it go. Over time God will change you in ways that you never dreamed were possible.

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(Here I go with an answer to everything again, but) I have; and He has done exactly what you have said. But, that comes with a price of loneliness, alienation and isolation for now. That is something that I am perfectly fine with. In fact, I enjoy it now that my glasses have absolutely no tint, and fit my "perscription" perfectly.

Part of the reason why I am unconcerned about this life, as we know it, is because I actually fight demons... real (reality warped, perhaps) melee with these entities. I have been fighting literal spiritual battles that have, by comarison, made life seem like the dream, or distraction. I know there is plenty beyond the dimension of this life as we know it, and it is my own personal fight. So, nothing scares me, nothing of life really surprises me; and, I myself am not concerned with happiness and "fun" in life.

It would seem that would be a bleak and dry way of living, but ironically it is more living than I have ever experienced in any of my years before.

I want the fog of war to dissipate - and when it does and we all get to resurrection, I will begin to emote correctly. But, I know in this imperfect vessel, what I want is always a trap. Which, is why I don't have any problem with navigating through the trenches until the fog of war is over.


With all of that said, I already love my children - and have plans for them. But, I won't create them on my own choice, because of what I believe. Again, I am not saying it won't happen. I am a philosophical cynic, so I am not "longing" for love and happiness, but I won't reject it is it is "forced" on me. I fell in love once - by accident. I experienced that human experience, and I honestly don't feel the need to experience it again. I would rather continue to experience the rest of the spectrum of human life that challenges me. (This is another reason why I don't see myself having children.)

Ygrene Imref said:

And, you call ME emotionally unstable, but I bet you are the one who reports me to substantiate your rant that misses most every point.

Are you regretful that someone would have the audacity to challenge your reasoning for procrearing? Nah, you don't have regrets


You leave them for your kids.

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Your pomposity is not appreciated. I don't understand your issue, you have not made it clear in any way.

Ygrene Imref said:

Christianity, as it were, is one of the most malevolent paradigms of all. It has taken plenty of souls through false teaching, quantifiable guilt trips, murder, lies, war, and so on.

I didn't include "Christianity," because I thought we knew what "it" has done. Every other day someone posts a thread about the guilt they feel, the worry of going to hell, or the absence and silence from God. Most people in one way or another simply tell those people it is their fault.

So, every single thing on this planet - to be complete - is malevolent. And, if you think anything on this planet is actually good, you have been deceived. There is nothing "good" but God, because nothing else does nothing but good 100% of the time.

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I think you need to separate the real Christian Church from the false. The true Church is not responsible for the atrocities that the false church are. True Christianity is not responsible for the Inquisition, etc.

Real Christianity is responsible for hospitals, charities, ending slavery, ending child labor, and many other blessings.

I am not saying that secular people did not contribute to the above end of atrocities- but Christians did as well.

There is nothing good but God. Yet God is within the spirits of Christians. His Spirit indwells believers. This is why we can be called the light of the world (little l, we are supposed to reflect the Light of the world).

Widlast said:

Your pomposity is not appreciated. I don't understand your issue, you have not made it clear in any way.

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You MUST understand my issue since you had so much to say about it.

So, I don't buy that, and it isn't pomp, but given what you have put forward I couldn't care any less if you don't appreciate whatever I have to say or offer.

Ygrene Imref said:

Someone already saved the world: why are more human vessels going to save the world even more?

And, you can bring the Gospel many fold over the Internet, for example. Or, by pilgrimage and mission.

You don't have to breed to spread the gospel, especially if that is your purpose for breeding. You do NOT know what your child will turn into - which is one of my points in this emotionalism of procreation - especially when we try to suggest "it is for God."

No, it is for the person. Someone already saved the world.

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Indeed, there is one who came to offer himself as savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. But we must believe in his work of salvation, that is, we must entrust ourselves to him. It is who who says that we are to evangelize the world.

Yes, he has done the work of reconciliation, but he has also delivered to his people the ministry of reconciliation, that is, we are to take his message to the world on his behalf. Read 2 Corinthians 5:16-21.

God is the author of life. He mandated that we should fill the earth. With that said, no where does it say every individual must procreate. I wouldn't want anyone to procreate who does not want children.

And you are correct, I don't have to breed to spread the gospel. But my kids sure are glad I did

Galatea said:

I think you need to separate the real Christian Church from the false. The true Church is not responsible for the atrocities that the false church are. True Christianity is not responsible for the Inquisition, etc.

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I am fully aware of the difference between the real church, and an apostate lie.

Unfortunately, there is only a subtle difference for Christianity, as it were.

Real Christianity is responsible for hospitals, charities, ending slavery, ending child labor, and many other blessings.

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The reality is that many FRONTS of charity and philanthropy exploit Christianity. Knowing the history and origin of many crusades, philanthropic measures and campaigns for morality, again there is a subtle difference of transparency and genuineness that separates the Church from an apostate.

I am not saying that secular people did not contribute to the above end of atrocities- but Christians did as well.

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I agree and at the base I would laud the people, not the organization(s) that exploit those good works for the betterment of the name of the organization.

There is nothing good but God. Yet God is within the spirits of Christians. His Spirit indwells believers. This is why we can be called the light of the world (little l, we are supposed to reflect the Light of the world).

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I agree. But, people are not Christ; that goodness is not good all of the time. Those times when goodness evades humanity is when "we" show how fantastically capable we are at destruction, death and corruption.

So, until that changes, I reserve the right to bring my child into that type of world. If it doesn't change until He puts His feet on the land and sea, then so be it. I am perfectly fine with that, and I would think my future children would appreciate the thought I put into their existence to be. Even if they dont, that is a non issue: like God does what is best for us despite our grumblings, I am doing what is best for my unborn child.

least said:

Indeed, there is one who came to offer himself as savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. But we must believe in his work of salvation, that is, we must entrust ourselves to him. It is who who says that we are to evangelize the world.

Yes, he has done the work of reconciliation, but he has also delivered to his people the ministry of reconciliation, that is, we are to take his message to the world on his behalf. Read 2 Corinthians 5:16-21.

God is the author of life. He mandated that we should fill the earth. With that said, no where does it say every individual must procreate. I wouldn't want anyone to procreate who does not want children.

And you are correct, I don't have to breed to spread the gospel. But my kids sure are glad I did

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And, you are perfectly within your right to have kids; you don't need me to approve as I am sure you know and agree. I wouldn't think they would hate or despise you for having them if you have taught them. They may have a phase, but that will pass.

For me, I choose to completely abstain. Besides being an alleged "anatalist," which isnt exactly right, there are many other spiritual reasons for which I choose not to have children, and why I responded and invested in this thread.

There are a lot of people who have been admonished on a fundamental/spiritual level because of the belief that we should be breeding for Christ no matter what. Even Christ says some people will not marry "for the sake of the kingdom." I don't think that is so "spiritual," in my experience it is a matter of fact statement.

Some people have "other priorities," understand their limits in terms of temptation, and/or simply just want to focus on God.

I was not admonishing anyone who has kids now. I am challenging the status quo on how and why we procreate: that there should be more to it than what is usually presented, since it not only affects the life of another person, but their afterlife also.