Why are very intelligent people usually atheists? It's not as obvious as it seems...

[lesliedellow]

For example, I believe I am as intelligent as Einstein, only much less famous.

Well, Einstein had an IQ of 160, with a standard deviation of 15, so it shouldn't be too difficult to put that to the test.

 

[juvenissun]

I made another thread a little while ago (The Link Between IQ, Religiousity and Academic Subjects) which also looked at the association between intelligence and belief.

If you look at the data, the correlation is somewhat weaker than it initially appears - for one, there is a stronger correlation between intelligence and religiosity than there is between education and religiosity. In other words, smart people are less likely to believe in God when they are still children, long before they receive any higher education. For another, the link between intelligence and lack of faith is almost solely confined to Protestantism: Catholics and Jews are both less likely to lose their faith as they become more educated. Mormons are supposely more intelligent than average too.

As the awesomely-named Senator Cheese has pointed out, correlations involving intelligence are always controversial: scientists and other highly intelligent people tend to be atheists ... but scientists also tend to be white, male, and left-wing. You could argue that scientists tend to be atheists because they think more rationally - but can you imagine the fuss if someone used that same argument to explain why scientists tend to be liberal white men?

So yes, obviously there is a great deal more to it than simply saying "Smart people are atheists because only stupid people believe in God".

That said, that doesn't mean the correlation doesn't mean anything. As a Christian myself, I find it slightly depressing that belief is associated with lower intelligence and lack of education. I'd like to understand why.

In the Scripture, particularly in the OT, there is a repeated question from God: Where is your wise man (I COR 1:20-23)? We Christians know better what the nature of real intelligence is.

So, a large population of wordily "un-intelligent" but faithful people are statistically included into this correlation. Of course, the score will be significantly lowered. This is an example on the quality of so-called "scientific" data.

 

[juvenissun]

Well, Einstein had an IQ of 160, with a standard deviation of 15, so it shouldn't be too difficult to put that to the test.

I probably don't have that IQ.

But it is easy to test it: Collect all people who has IQ 160 or over, and then see how many of them are qualified to be called "very intelligent". I am not surprised to see some of them can not even write a logically valid composition.

Do you know many foreign students have perfect TOFLE score? Some of them can not even make a simple conversation.

 

[Ruthie24]

This is a whole list of Christian thinkers in science from past to present. The list is too numerous to mention, but here's the link. I think it's a piece of propaganda basically to promote that ^iq = atheism

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Strathos]

People who claim to be "rational" often believe in things that are just as irrational as the things they condemn.

 

[Sunshine Locket]

All of this is nonsense of course given there are those who are very intelligent and religious. And there are religious scientists as well.
Even Einstein believed in a higher power.
High intelligence and rationalism can't be a consistent characteristic of atheism when there are atheists that occupy their lives obsessed with religion and the religious. Going to all sorts of lengths to interject themselves into a community that believes in what the atheist argues isn't real nor possible.

(If you don't fancy wading through endless quotes and web sources, just skip to the bottom. )

Intelligence is positively correlated with atheism. In other words, the smarter a person is, the less likely they are to believe in God:

"Out of 63 studies, 53 showed a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity, while 10 showed a positive one. Significant negative correlations were seen in 35 studies, whereas only two studies showed significant positive correlations.
The three psychologists have defined intelligence as the “ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience.” In short this is analytic intelligence, not the newly identified forms of creative and emotional intelligence, which are still subjects of dispute."
...
"Among the thousands of people involved in these studies, the authors found that gender or education made no difference to the correlation between religiosity and intelligence; however, age mattered. The negative correlation between religiosity and intelligence was found to be the weakest among the pre-college population."
...
"A 2009 study, led by Richard Lynn of the University of Ulster, compared religious beliefs and average national IQs of 137 countries. In their sample, only 23 countries had more than 20 percent atheists, which constituted, according to Lynn, "virtually all higher IQ countries."

(source: arstechnica.com)​

One common reason for this is simply that people who are highly intelligent think more rationally than people of normal or lower intelligence.

However, there is another correlation which throws a spanner in this theory: high intelligence isn't always associated with rationality. In some cases it is actually associated with irrationality. Here are a few examples:

• Highly intelligent people are just as prone to congitive bias:

"In one study, subjects read about a controversial issue, such as whether or not people should be allowed to sell their own organs. Then, they wrote their thoughts about it. The researchers found the typical cognitive bias. People mostly wrote arguments favoring their own position. They did not tend to integrate arguments across different perspectives. The researchers also assessed intelligence. They found that people who scored more highly on the intelligence test showed just as much of the cognitive bias as the rest."
(source: globalcognition.org)
​

• Highly educated people are MORE likely to fall for investment scams:

"Many scam victims are pretty smart. Three studies in 2006 and 2007 of identified investment-fraud victims and randomly selected participants—carried out by the Finra foundation, WISE Senior Services of Los Angeles and AARP Washington State—found that victims of investment fraud tend to be better educated than nonvictims, have higher incomes and have been investing for a decade or more. But they are so confident in their judgment that they fail to seek out professional or other opinions."
(source: WallStreet Journal [cached])
​

• Doctors in particular have a reputation for being bad investors:

"The analytical-test results of people like [the hypothetical] Dr. Heart indicate that he's close to genius level. So perhaps he doesn't need any advisers. Perhaps he thinks he's smarter than any adviser. So why spend time and money dealing with these people? When it comes to investing, some people do think they are, financially speaking, immortal. Being very, very intelligent may have some drawbacks. Most high-income people with average to above-average intellect realize they aren't brilliant, but the majority have great common or practical intelligence. They know their strengths and weaknesses and act accordingly. They never make major investment decisions without first seeking advice from skilled professionals."
(source: medicaleconomics.moderdmedicine.com)
​

• With the exception of God Himself, highly educated people are are just as likely (if not MORE likely) to believe in the supernatural and paranormal:

"While 23 percent of college freshmen expressed a general belief in paranormal concepts — from astrology to communicating with the dead — 31 percent of seniors did so, and the figure jumped to 34 percent among graduate students. "As people attain higher college-education levels, the likelihood of believing in paranormal dimensions increases," Farha and Steward write."
(source: nbcnews.com)

"These results are consistent with the notion that having a strong scientific knowledge base is not enough to insulate a person against irrational beliefs. Students who scored well on these tests were no more or less skeptical of pseudoscientific claims than students who scored very poorly. Apparently, the students were not able to apply their scientific knowledge to evaluate these pseudoscientific claims. We suggest that this inability stems in part from the way that science is traditionally presented to students: Students are taught what to think but not how to think."
(source: skeptic.com)
​

---

To cut a long post short...

If people who are highly intelligent or better educated are less likely to believe in God because they think rationally, why are they MORE likely to have other irrational beliefs than people who are less intelligent or have less education?

 

[Senator Cheese]

I probably don't have that IQ.

But it is easy to test it: Collect all people who has IQ 160 or over, and then see how many of them are qualified to be called "very intelligent". I am not surprised to see some of them can not even write a logically valid composition.

Do you know many foreign students have perfect TOFLE score? Some of them can not even make a simple conversation.

Actually, the myth that someone may be "good at languages but bad at math" has been proven wrong time and time again by neuroscientists. While there are exceptions to the rule (idiots savants), neural development usually doesn't selectively favor one area of expertise. Someone who is bad at math will usually also be bad in the area of languages.

As for the TOEFL test, I guess it may have to do with the fact that a large proportion of the score is derived from written examinations and the oral part is comparatively easy, whereas it should be the exact other way around.

tl;dr: I think that anyone with an IQ above 160 can make a valid logical composition.

 

[durangodawood]

...If people who are highly intelligent or better educated are less likely to believe in God because they think rationally, why are they MORE likely to have other irrational beliefs than people who are less intelligent or have less education?

Perhaps:

Smart people can see through the obvious myth-making that fill out the bulk of religious scripture. BUT they remain aware that the world is still mysterious in many ways, and fall into traps that we are ALL vulnerable too.

 

[MikeCarra]

High IQ people are more likely to be atheists because they are more likely to have high salaries, and "You cannot serve both God and Mammon" is a psychological truism as applicable today as the day it was spoken.

You should definitely visit Christian Forums "American Politics" board where you can see all manner of Christians supporting slashing food stamps programs, blaming the poor for being poor, support for tax breaks for the wealthy and all manner of "worship of Mammon". It's truly stunning.

And considering how many of the Religious people the GOP in the US gathers unto itself I'd rethink my claim if I were you.

In previous centuries, before there were bucket loads of money sloshing around, the equation High IQ = irreligious didn't hold.

To be fair that was more likely due to bigotry of the religious who kept those with atheistic tendencies shut up or ensured no one would dare fail to espouse religious faith in order to get employed.

Look at our modern-day American presidency. If the candidate does not explicitly tell us about his DEEP CHRISTIAN FAITH he won't get elected.

There are state constitutions here in the US that to this day (or up until very recently) had explicit sections dedicated to keeping atheists from being able to speak or act freely as atheists.

State Constitutions that Discriminate Against Atheists LIST HERE

 

[MikeCarra]

Anybody with any intelligence, certainly isn't against God.

How can one be against that which they don't believe is real?

I'm DEFINITELY anti-unicorn. Those things are just nasty.

 

[MikeCarra]

Most, if not all, televangelists are conmen.

...and this is what we call the "No True Scotsmen" fallacy. (Not that I necessarily disagree with the claim, but to be fair I'm guessing some of them can feel they are real Christians AND love money despite the commands against this. Just check out the relationship between GOP support and religion in the US)

 

[MikeCarra]

The level of education in the southern states of America must do something to pull the average Christian IQ down. Especially if the survey is conducted in America.

So far as I can make out, unsupervised home schooling is rife in the southern states, and, even if it was supervised, the chances are that the inspectors would be fundamentalists themselves.

Anytime I see polls like this I cringe. It makes atheists seem to be so egotistic. It would be interesting to know if there was such a relationship but clearly higher IQ people are just as prone to hold unfounded belief (I believe Michael Shermer attributes this to a false sense of security among the exceptional intelligent that if they are right about many things they assume that ALL their ideas are correct. It's syllogistic logic error.)

 

[juvenissun]

How can one be against that which they don't believe is real?

I'm DEFINITELY anti-unicorn. Those things are just nasty.

How can one NOT be against that which they don't believe is real?

 

[MikeCarra]

For example, I believe I am as intelligent as Einstein, only much less famous.

50% of the way there....

I can not compete on physics with him. But I am certainly a much better geologist than him.

Hmmm, I've seen some of your geology posted on this board. While you do have a grasp of some geology I'm not entirely certain that you are a better geologist than Einstein is a physicist....which is the real comparison.

There are a lot of intelligent people, but there is no "very" intelligent people.

That is irrational. If there are different levels of intelligence, by definition one end of that arbitrary selection can be called "very" (which is just a relative term, not an absolute term).

If we call one to be very intelligent, than that makes every intelligent ones very intelligent too.

Only if you have a binary response. Intelligent/not Intlelligent. Otherwise you can have levels.

With this correction

I think you meant "arbitrary re-definition using sui generis terms" instead of "correction" there.

 

[MikeCarra]

How can one NOT be against that which they don't believe is real?

I thought the "anti-unicorn" sentence might have cleared that up for you.

Let's assume I don't believe that Bob Smith exists. How can I be "anti-Bob Smith"? What would my position look like?

That I stand firmly against the actions of that person I don't even believe exists? That I stand firmly against Bob Smith's clothing choices...even though I don't actually believe there are clothing choices that Bob Smith makes because Bob Smith does not exist.

This may be too subtle for you, so please take some time to tell me what my position would look like in regards to Bob Smith.

In my experience as an atheist I simply fail to believe God exists. That does NOT mean that I claim "God Doesn't Exist" since that is a "universal negative claim" and hence illogical. I simply fail to believe he exists. If he were to make himself manifest to me I could always be shown to be wrong and could correct my position.

This is the real difference.

(It's reasons like this that I am skeptical of your claims in regards to Einstein a few posts back.)

 

[juvenissun]

50% of the way there....



Hmmm, I've seen some of your geology posted on this board. While you do have a grasp of some geology I'm not entirely certain that you are a better geologist than Einstein is a physicist....which is the real comparison.

That is irrational. If there are different levels of intelligence, by definition one end of that arbitrary selection can be called "very" (which is just a relative term, not an absolute term).

Only if you have a binary response. Intelligent/not Intlelligent. Otherwise you can have levels.

I think you meant "arbitrary re-definition using sui generis terms" instead of "correction" there.

Intelligence is a quality, not a quantity. You can start to reason from here.
If you are intelligent, am I more intelligent than you? I am not sure, it depends.

 

[Ruthie24]

This is a whole list of Christian thinkers in science from past to present. The list is too numerous to mention, but here's the link. I think it's a piece of propaganda basically to promote that ^iq = atheism

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This IMO proves that intelligence has nothing to do with religion.

 

[juvenissun]

I thought the "anti-unicorn" sentence might have cleared that up for you.

Let's assume I don't believe that Bob Smith exists. How can I be "anti-Bob Smith"? What would my position look like?

Easy. You want to tell others who believes in Bob that they are wrong.
Because you know you are right.

This is the basic difference between faith and no faith.
Faith is neutral.
No-faith has a "no" in front of it, and so it is offensive.

 

[bhsmte]

There is a relationship between education levels and believing in God and this relationship is pretty clear.

There are extremely intelligent people who do believe in God, so although I do think education has an impact on the likelihood of one believing in a God, there are other factors. The most important IMO, is individual psychology and also whether someone is an intuitive thinker, vs an analytical thinker and analytical thinkers are more prone to be non-believers.

With psychology though, we get into complex psyche's that can be difficult to put your finger on and we all have unique psychological needs we try to fulfill and I believe this plays a major role into one chooses to believe in a God or not. And no, I am not saying folks who believe in Gods have psychological problems or are weaker in their psyche, as a belief in a God can just be the right thing for some people, if it makes them a better person and able to cope with life better.

I believe a desire for a certain comfort plays a role and the thought that someone is looking out for you, will help you and you will be rewarded at the end of the day is a compelling one for some. For others, comfort can come from a need for everything to make sense and be supported with objective evidence and when it doesn't, they just can't reconcile the belief in their psyche.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Smart people can see through the obvious myth-making that fill out the bulk of religious scripture. BUT they remain aware that the world is still mysterious in many ways, and fall into traps that we are ALL vulnerable too.

If true, it seems odd that highly intelligent people would dismiss the existance of God while at the same time believing in other beings such as the Loch Ness monster, bigfoot, aliens and ghosts (all of which were mentioned in the skeptic.com link in the OP).

Why, for example, dismiss the Bible as being nothing but myth, but believe in stories about bigfoot and ghosts?

To be fair that was more likely due to bigotry of the religious who kept those with atheistic tendencies shut up or ensured no one would dare fail to espouse religious faith in order to get employed.

Look at our modern-day American presidency. If the candidate does not explicitly tell us about his DEEP CHRISTIAN FAITH he won't get elected.

There are state constitutions here in the US that to this day (or up until very recently) had explicit sections dedicated to keeping atheists from being able to speak or act freely as atheists.

Take you axe somewhere else please.

For example, I believe I am as intelligent as Einstein, only much less famous
...
There are a lot of intelligent people, but there is no "very" intelligent people. If we call one to be very intelligent, than that makes every intelligent ones very intelligent too.

Oh Juvenissun, never change.