Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Hmm]

universalism contradicts quite a few.

Universalism certainly contradicts some verses found in the most common, though by no means all, English Bible translations, most notoriously those verses that refer to "eternal punishment".

But if that translation is wrong then it doesn't contradict anything.

The question is, does "kolasis anonios" in the original Greek mean "eternal punishment" or does it mean "pruning/correction lasting for a (time-limited) age"? The answer is very revealing and very easy to look up. What's difficult is finding the motivation to do so.

 

[Jipsah]

Popularity has never been a criteria for truth. The gospel is offensive and unpopular to most people. Popularity is greatly overrated.

I don't see it as having anything to do with popularity. I think that the idea of a God who will torture people forever because they've offended him sounds horrible to most people. Yeah, we put up all kinds of fatuous rationalizations about "God can't tolerate sin" and "sinners choose hell", and all that, but it generally sounds like trying to avoid having God look like a pitileous monster who takes pleasure in the suffering of His creatures.

 

[RickReads]

Personally, I expect inconsistencies between one person and another within the Church. Some of those inconcistencies are usual for the fact that human perspectives are involved in grasping what the meaning and essence of Jesus Christ amounts to "in full." I don't think we should be threatened by this. It's just a part of the reality of God not having given us all that we'd like to know ...

I don't think doctrines are true because they don't contradict other Scripture. I think that if they're true, it's because they are accurate statements about reality as it is in Christ, not because we expect to find a perfect Bible.

Why does the Bible say to study to show ourselves approved? In my experience, I find the Holy Spirit
teaching me with scripture as much or more as with anything else.

 

[RickReads]

Yes, I do attempt to cut fellow Christians some slack. Or at least I do so until one of them thinks they're going to plow over me with their "superior" reasoning for the sixth or seventh time in a row ...

I empathize with your preference in avoiding Ad Hominems, and that is why I didn't apply one to you.

So I get 6 or 7 times to reason with you before my slack runs out?

 

[JulieB67]

I take it literally. Death means death, as in the act of being dead, erased from time/space, gone, see ya.

That's how I see it as well. It's what I see in scripture. And I do think that's eternal, there's no coming back from that. Basically blotted out from existence. Christ calls it the "second" death. Which to me goes hand in hand with his Matthew 10:28 teaching.

As for the OP, I always think of the 2nd Timothy verses as why it's gaining more popularity these days -


II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

II Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto unto fables.

 

[RickReads]

Yes, I do attempt to cut fellow Christians some slack. Or at least I do so until one of them thinks they're going to plow over me with their "superior" reasoning for the sixth or seventh time in a row ...

I empathize with your preference in avoiding Ad Hominems, and that is why I didn't apply one to you.

And on another point, saying that someone thinks they are the only one who cares about truth is definitely Ad Hominem territory. So are comments such as plow over, and superior reasoning. None of that has anything to do with making a Biblical argument.

 

[RileyG]

It's why I specified Christian universalism which is a totally different thing, it's Christocentric and with a tradition that goes back to Paul.

I wonder if it's fear of hell so much as seeing it as unscriptural as well as an immoral concept.

Are you aware of any Christian denomination that actually teaches Universalism or is it just some individuals? On top of my head, I cannot.

I think those that reject an actual hell believe in some sort of annihilation for the very wicked.

 

[bling]

Hell does nothing for the people that go there and nothing to satisfy God, but the threat of hell does encourage some individuals still willing to accept God’s forgiveness (charity) as pure undeserved charity to do so quickly. The perceived pleasures of sin are a very likely alternative, but going to hell even off in the future is a strong encouragement to accept God’s Love now.

 

[RickReads]

Are you aware of any Christian denomination that actually teaches Universalism or is it just some individuals? On top of my head, I cannot.

I think those that reject an actual hell believe in some sort of annihilation for the very wicked.

Not really. All the ones I`ve met are confident that Hitler will be rehabilitated and redeemed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why does the Bible say to study to show ourselves approved?

Why does it say this? Because that's what the author of the 2nd letter to Timothy wrote, and from the context of the passage, we see that by this he is indicating that there is some "approved" approach in reading, handling and living out what can be learned from the Old Testament. Unfortunately, the author (Paul?) of that 2nd letter didn't quite layout a comprehensive method for every other Christian to follow. But I suppose it was a reminder to Timothy to do what he had already been previously instructed to do.

But I wonder. What did the same writer mean by writing the verse just prior to the one you've cited? Might this curtail the extent or the way in which we might ultimately engage a biblical topic like, say, "the nature of Eternity"?

In my experience, I find the Holy Spirit
teaching me with scripture as much or more as with anything else.

Well, everyone likes to describe their choice in hermeneutics when handling the Bible, and you have your description. But the question remains: Are you insinuating that others here, like myself, somehow aren't being informed and/or directed by the Lord's Spirit as much as you are?

 

[RileyG]

Not really. All the ones I`ve met are confident that Hitler will be rehabilitated and redeemed.

Scary! Probably one reason I reject Universalism.

 

[Hmm]

Are you aware of any Christian denomination that actually teaches Universalism or is it just some individuals? On top of my head, I cannot.

I'm not away of any but it's a tradition rather than a denominational matter. There are obviously universalists in every denomination though no doubt many dare not speak their name.

I think those that reject an actual hell believe in some sort of annihilation for the very wicked.

Hell is a difficult word to discuss because it's derived from the Norse word 'hel' and doesn't appear in scripture which talks about Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and Tartarus instead, all of which have a very different meaning than the usual meaning of "hell".

You could say though that universalism believes in a temporary "hell" in which we learn about God and ourselves and eventually come to freely confess that Christ as lord.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So I get 6 or 7 times to reason with you before my slack runs out?

Oh, you may get more grace than that, actually. A lot of it depends on your attitude along the way ...

 

[RileyG]

I'm not away of any but it's a tradition rather than a denominational matter. There are obviously universalists in every denomination though no doubt many dare not speak their name.



Hell is a difficult word to discuss because it's derived from the Norse word 'hel' and doesn't appear in scripture which talks about Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and Tartarus instead, all of which have a very different meaning than the usual meaning of "hell".

#1. Yes, that is true.

#2. It was my understanding Hades is the greek word used to describe both Gehenna and Sheol, and Tartarus is also used to describe Gehenna and Sheol in some later Jewish literature. I know Sheol and Gehenna are different and translating them as "hell" only makes things more difficult.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And on another point, saying that someone thinks they are the only one who cares about truth is definitely Ad Hominem territory. So are comments such as plow over, and superior reasoning. None of that has anything to do with making a Biblical argument.

It would be IF I applied the notions to you directly, but in that case, I didn't. I asked a question about whether or not you thought "such and such." That is not an Ad Hominem, and it wasn't intended to be. If I had made a direct statement about it instead, then I could agree with you on this point.

From this I conclude that you don't assume that others automatically care less about truth than you do. And if you don't, that's a good thing!

 

[Hmm]

Scary! Probably one reason I reject Universalism.

Did Hitler not have a mother though who would remember him as a baby? Could she ever experience heaven as heaven knowing that her baby is suffering in an endlessly tormenting hell? Of course, that's not to say that she condones what he did. I'm sure she was devastated by what he did.

So there can't be a heaven in any meaningful sense of the word if there is even one person in "hell", defined in this man-made way as a place of ECT. And as well as being his mother's son, Hitler is also God's child and would not he want to redeem his child, and being God, would he not be able to eventually do so? Hitler as Hitler won't be going to heaven, but a fully repentant and redeemed Hitler will. Then his mum will also be in heaven.

 

[RickReads]

Why does it say this? Because that's what the author of the 2nd letter of Timothy wrote, and from the context of the passage, we see that by this he is indicating that there is some "approved" approach in reading, handling and living out what can be learned from the Old Testament. Unfortunately, the author (Paul?) of that 2nd letter didn't quite layout a comprehensive method for every other Christian to follow. But I suppose it was a reminder to Timothy to do what he had already been previously instructed to do.

But I wonder. What did the same writer mean by writing the verse just prior to the one you've cited? Might this curtail the extent or the way in which we might ultimately engage a biblical topic like, say, "Eternity"?




Well, everyone likes to describe their choice in hermeneutics when handling the Bible, and you have your description. But the question remains: Are you insinuating that others here, like myself, somehow aren't being informed and/or directed by the Lord's Spirit as much as you are?

The approval Paul is talking about is the backbone of understanding the scripture, it's all about knowing and understanding the Law/Torah which the majority of professing Christians are slack in knowing. The previous verses address other issues Paul is emphasizing in this letter.

As to the rest, I would say if you are that sensitive then you will find forums like this a rough ride.

 

[RickReads]

Oh, you may get more grace than that, actually. A lot of it depends on your attitude along the way ...

So getting your grace depends on whether or not you think I`m treating you right?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The approval Paul is talking about is the backbone of understanding the scripture, it's all about knowing and understanding the Law/Torah which the majority of professing Christians are slack in knowing. The previous verses address other issues Paul is emphasizing in this letter.

Yes, I agree with what you're stating here.

As to the rest, I would say if you are that sensitive then you will find forums like this a rough ride.

... Oh, don't worry about me. I'm all about rough rides.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So getting your grace depends on whether or not you think I`m treating you right?

No, I'm insinuating that the slack I'm willing to give to others is related to the amount of slack that others give me, especially if I think there's a bigger picture that they're ignoring and which remains to be explored, researched, deliberated over and otherwise analyzed before pouncing too firmly upon another person's head.

What do I need to do to gain an increase in your grace?