Why are they gay?

[ebia]

What do you want, exactly?

Shall I get my family to come down here with their testimonies? Somehow I don't think that would work. Elsewhere on this forum someone has produced a heart-breaking personal testimony but some people still don't believe him.

What other possible evidence could there be?

There was a documented suicide by an Anglican vicar who could not reconcile his homosexuality with his religion. Would that be evidence enough for you?

No evidence would be sufficient for those who's beliefs have nothing to do with evidence in the first place.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

Gay by birth, proud by choice.

 

[chocolatecheesecake]

sorry I came in late yay!

better question why are you ...(insert short coming)...

then try to answer the question again.

 

[belladonic-haze]

This is stemming from another thread.

People are gay because?

1. They want to get attention
2. They are rebelling against their parents
3. They just want to engage in sinful behavior
4. It is not a choice, God made them gay
5. A combination of the first 3 choices.
6. Other

I screwed up the poll, haha, sorry

I am not gay but bisexual...so this is not a homosexual pov.

Believe me, the fact that I am attracted to the same gender has nothing to do with the first three choices. My Mom and Dad always had gay friends so I would not rebel against them. They never saw it as something ....'evil' . For the attention I do not do it, because I am in a heterosexual marriage and he is just that one person that makes me happy. He could just been as easily a she and he knows that I am bisexual. And having sex with a woman does not come from..."Oh let's sin today". It is atrraction, falling in love and love. It just didn't work out for me with her, that's all. And God, yea, He/She accepts me just the way I am and loves me. She/He made me who I am today......

I am just who I am and I am not going to deny who I am.....

 

[lilymarie]

Look, I know for a fact that people are born that way. It runs in my family.

Maybe God did not intend it. Perhaps it was caused by the environment, too much pollution or female hormones in the rivers, etc. Or perhaps it is caused by people putting off marriage until they are older (than 14 or 16). Maybe it is caused by single-sex secondary schools.

Who knows what causes it but the fact remains that by the age of 18 a person is either gay, straight or bisexual. And there is usually nothing that they can do about it. As Christians we ought to have compassion for those peope, not condemn them.

Compassion from a Christian is not biased towards one thing or another; it is compassion for all, including murderers, that's why I don't believe in capital punishment because there is still time for them to repent and be saved from sin and to made into a new creation through Christ Jesus and his gift of The Holy Spirit.

 

[ReformedChapin]

What do you want, exactly?

Shall I get my family to come down here with their testimonies? Somehow I don't think that would work. Elsewhere on this forum someone has produced a heart-breaking personal testimony but some people still don't believe him.

What other possible evidence could there be?

There was a documented suicide by an Anglican vicar who could not reconcile his homosexuality with his religion. Would that be evidence enough for you?

So you got nothing, that's what I thought. All that demonstrates is that you got some sick people that need help and that further research needs to be done on this subject so that they are helped.

Again personal stories mean nothing, research does.

 

[*Starlight*]

Well, just like most people are naturally heterosexual, some people are naturally homosexual.. So I pick number 4.

 

[crazymichael]

sorry I came in late yay!

better question why are you ...(insert short coming)...

then try to answer the question again.

I think this is directed at me. Anyway, I wrote a really long post yesterday and it didnt get posted because the server went down, haha. So I havent felt like doing it again. In short, I believe it is a genetic disposition. Everyone is different. It is easy to be able to put things into two seperate categories, gay/straight; man/woman. I dont think it works that all the time. Some research shows that for every older brother a boy has, he is 33% more likely to be gay, which is interesting. I think there may be a number of factors, including social factors, but at the same time if you ask any gay/lesbian they say they were born that way.

 

[relspace]

This is stemming from another thread.

People are gay because?

1. They want to get attention
2. They are rebelling against their parents
3. They just want to engage in sinful behavior
4. It is not a choice, God made them gay
5. A combination of the first 3 choices.
6. Other

I screwed up the poll, haha, sorry

Tell me....

Why isn't this one of the options?

"They fell in love."

Why is all about sex, sexual preferences and genetics? You see this is what I find so objectionable about this whole issue of homosexuality and heterosexuality. People are just so many flavors of ice cream for people to choose from. When other people become just a means for the satisfaction of other peoples desires it all sounds just like cannabalism and people are just so much meat. I have even heard some bars being refered to as meat markets.

I believe love is matter of choice and commitment not a matter of uncontrollable urges. The way that homosexuals and heterosexuals usually talk, they sounds like hunters out cruising for a piece of meat to satisfy their hunger. Why is this? Why is it all about their preference for a certain kind of meat?

Have the heterosexual predators taken such a hold on our society that they decide how the issue is thought of? Are they the real objectors to the idea of homosexuality? Maybe the hunter is a little uncomfortable at the idea of being the prey for a change. I think maybe our society's acceptance of this kind of heterosexual behavior is the real problem.

 

[crazymichael]

Tell me....

Why isn't this one of the options?

"They fell in love."

Why is all about sex, sexual preferences and genetics? You see this is what I find so objectionable about this whole issue of homosexuality and heterosexuality. People are just so many flavors of ice cream for people to choose from. When other people become just a means for the satisfaction of other peoples desires it all sounds just like cannabalism and people are just so much meat. I have even heard some bars being refered to as meat markets.

I believe love is matter of choice and commitment not a matter of uncontrollable urges. The way that homosexuals and heterosexuals usually talk, they sounds like hunters out cruising for a piece of meat to satisfy their hunger. Why is this? Why is it all about their preference for a certain kind of meat?

Have the heterosexual predators taken such a hold on our society that they decide how the issue is thought of? Are they the real objectors to the idea of homosexuality? Maybe the hunter is a little uncomfortable at the idea of being the prey for a change. I think maybe our society's acceptance of this kind of heterosexual behavior is the real problem.

OK, I will make it a choice now.

Choice 7--They fell in love

I wish admin could fix the thread to make it a poll cause I messed it up, lol.

 

[Dannager]

Personally, I think one's sexuality is nobody's business but one's own. I don't see what some outmoded legal code from 3000 years ago has to do with me.

Truth.

 

[Ringo84]

This is stemming from another thread.

People are gay because?

1. They want to get attention
2. They are rebelling against their parents
3. They just want to engage in sinful behavior
4. It is not a choice, God made them gay
5. A combination of the first 3 choices.
6. Other

I screwed up the poll, haha, sorry

Because they were born that way, in most cases.

One time on the ICQ Christianity board, I debated this with someone and kept going back to one question: did you "choose" to be straight? If so, what day of the month was it? What year? If we didn't choose to be straight, then why do we assume that homosexuals "chose" to be that way?

I also agree with another poster who said that sexuality is nobody's business. It absolutely, positively is between a person and God. It's not up to us to judge someone because they're gay.

Also remember that Old Testament law from Leviticus and the other books of law don't apply to us - they applies to the Israelites. That's their law.
Ringo

 

[ReformedChapin]

I really wish someone who thinks God made them gay would tell me why God said this..

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Romans 1:26-27).


So what you are saying is that either bible is wrong or God is a hypocrite...please explain...thanks. Oh and if it's the hermanutics you want to argue I suggest you interpret this passage the way the author intrepret it, not how you want it to sound.


Oh and for those who keep arguing about the don't judge anyone, let everyone do whatever they want please explain this verse to me...

I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you'" (1 Corinthians 5:9- 13).

 

[Ringo84]

I really wish someone who thinks God made them gay would tell me why God said this..

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Romans 1:26-27).


So what you are saying is that either bible is wrong or God is a hypocrite...please explain...thanks. Oh and if it's the hermanutics you want to argue I suggest you interpret this passage the way the author intrepret it, not how you want it to sound.


Oh and for those who keep arguing about the don't judge anyone, let everyone do whatever they want please explain this verse to me...

I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you'" (1 Corinthians 5:9- 13).

But if God didn't "make" homosexuals, where'd they come from? Pluto?

You're assuming that God didn't make homosexuals because you assume that they're sinful. How would you feel if someone implied that being straight is evil?

Name the time when you woke up and "chose" to be straight.

So what you are saying is that either bible is wrong or God is a hypocrite

I never said that. That's what YOU read into my comments.

Those verses you provided don't prove much either. What are "shameful lusts" and "indecent acts"? That can be interpreted in many ways. And "sexual immorality" is similarly objective.

Why do you feel so strongly about this, NewGuy? Obviously you aren't gay, so it really isn't your problem when you come right down to it. Homosexuals aren't personally hurting you in any way, and neither is my interpretation of the Bible.
Ringo

 

[relspace]

OK, I will make it a choice now.

Choice 7--They fell in love

I wish admin could fix the thread to make it a poll cause I messed it up, lol.

Fine but what bothers me is that this was not one of the options to begin with. It never is. Why does it take me who is (half?) "homophobic" (since I have been accused of this so many times), to point this out?

I really wish someone who thinks God made them gay would tell me why God said this..

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Romans 1:26-27).

Thank you very much. I have been wondering what the Biblical basis of Christian repudiation of homosexuality was. I am in fact embarassed, since I read Romans more often than any other part of the Bible.

So what you are saying is that either bible is wrong or God is a hypocrite...please explain...thanks. Oh and if it's the hermanutics you want to argue I suggest you interpret this passage the way the author intrepret it, not how you want it to sound.

There are of course a great deal of Christians who do not take the Bible very seriously, particularly in regards to "antequated standards of morality." There is of course no forthright prohibition in the Bible (unless it is covered by adultery somehow) merely this presumption that this is such a great perversion that no such prohibition should even be necessary. Apparently there are Christians who think that either God is confused (creating homosexuals while inspiring the Paul to write this in the Bible) or think that there are parts of the Bible which have nothing to do with God at all.


Look, I don't think this is an issue on which to divide Christianity. It is not one of the essentials. However it must be understood why many Christians must feel strongly that homosexuality is prohibited. And so we must find a way to respect each other and compromise in the secular law.

Oh and for those who keep arguing about the don't judge anyone, let everyone do whatever they want please explain this verse to me...

I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you'" (1 Corinthians 5:9- 13).

This is why it is essential that gay rights does not become regarded as superior to religious freedom or it could become illegal to carry out instructions like this in the Bible. A guarantee of gay right under the principle of the freedom of religion is as far as any compromise on this issue can go. The program of the gay rights movement to equate sexual preference with race and sex (male vs female) must be resisted at all costs or religious freedom will cease to exist.

However, not everyone can be a Christian like that which the above passage commands. For some of us the root of our inspiration comes from the way that Jesus did not seperate himself from sinners but went among them to share God's love with them. So although I can respect your position and will defend with my life your right to live according to your understanding of the Bible, I do not think that I would be comfortable in your church. Homosexuality may be a sin, but I am also a sinner groveling beneath the table of God and I do not feel able to make the judgements which you have claimed a right to.

But if God didn't "make" homosexuals, where'd they come from? Pluto?

I think the idea is that homosexuality is an activity not an identity. We are all just people and we are all created by God. But we have free will and make our own choices in regards to the direction our life takes. The world is full of people who say they cannot help themselves. Hey, wake up, that's the human race. We are all sinners and we cannot help ourselves.

You're assuming that God didn't make homosexuals because you assume that they're sinful. How would you feel if someone implied that being straight is evil?

The word is sinful not evil. And being "straight" or heterosexual is sinful. The whole idea of a sexual preference is abomnable, and if you go out hunting to satisfy these preferences, no matter what they are, it is sinful.

Name the time when you woke up and "chose" to be straight.

I repudiate all these terms gay, straight, homosexual and heterosexaul. I just like everyone else first experienced feelings of romanitic love and sexual attraction in adolescence. You can call it uncontrollable urges in which you see no role of choice, but I call it falling in love in which choice is everything.

I never said that. That's what YOU read into my comments.

I see no evidence that he was responding to your comments at all.

Those verses you provided don't prove much either. What are "shameful lusts" and "indecent acts"? That can be interpreted in many ways. And "sexual immorality" is similarly objective.

True, it only talks about sexual activities between members of the same sex. It doesn't give any details so I guess you are free to judge which sexual activities between members of the same sex are shameful and what is not. However I find it quite understandable that some Christians do not wish to play such games with this passage in the Bible.

Homosexuals aren't personally hurting you in any way, and neither is my interpretation of the Bible. Why do you feel so strongly about this, NewGuy? Obviously you aren't gay, so it really isn't your problem when you come right down to it.

This was a poll. It was an invitation to express our opinions. It was an experiment to see if people with different opinions could respect each other while discussing this issue. He is a Christian and he believes in the Bible. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[lilymarie]

Because they were born that way, in most cases.

One time on the ICQ Christianity board, I debated this with someone and kept going back to one question: did you "choose" to be straight? If so, what day of the month was it? What year? If we didn't choose to be straight, then why do we assume that homosexuals "chose" to be that way?

I also agree with another poster who said that sexuality is nobody's business. It absolutely, positively is between a person and God. It's not up to us to judge someone because they're gay.

Also remember that Old Testament law from Leviticus and the other books of law don't apply to us - they applies to the Israelites. That's their law.
Ringo

Here's my post from another thread. The law is not dead, Jesus said he'd write in on our hearts.

I can get Romans 14 for you too just in case you don't have a Bible. However, you can read the Bible online for free.

_________________

Romans 15

7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews [a] on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing the praises of your name." [b]
10 Again, it says,
"Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people." [c]
11 And again,
"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him." [d]
12 And again, Isaiah says,
"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope." [e]
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 15:8 Greek circumcision
2. Romans 15:9 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49
3. Romans 15:10 Deut. 32:43
4. Romans 15:11 Psalm 117:1
5. Romans 15:12 Isaiah 11:10 (see Septua

Romans 8 also reads: "For I tell you that Chirst has become a servant of "circumcision" on behalf of God's truth. (other texts say instead of "Jews")

I have said the old covenant with God was circumcision of the flesh; the new covenant through Christ Jesus is circumcision of the heart. Jesus said "he would circumcize our hearts with the law". So the law is not dead; it's written on our hearts; otherwise, we'd allow pediophiles running loose in our churches. So to say the church is completely "lawless" and only under grace is not a truth either. There are "bounderies". Because it's all about him first, not us.

 

[lilymarie]

Romans 14 It's important if you want to learn the prophesies and learn about Jesus. This regards the "food" laws or as some say "kosher".

The Weak and the Strong

1 Accept those whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person's faith allows them to eat everything, but another person, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted that person. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master they stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 Some consider one day more sacred than another; others consider every day alike. Everyone should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Those who regard one day as special do so to the Lord. Those who eat meat do so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and those who abstain do so to the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we do not live to ourselves alone and we do not die to ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " [a]
12 So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother or sister for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23

I love that "every knee shall bow" How true Jesus. If we can at least all agree on that, we've gotten somewhere.

 

[Mling]

If somebody really is homosexual, in that, their brain is configured that way, then God made them that way. Nature, if you don't believe in God.

I think that abuse or confusion can make a person think they are homosexual, even if they aren't.

Like say a girl is abused by her dad or has no father, it's pretty well understood that she may turn to other men to make up for her the male "gap" in her life.

It seems reasonable that some boys respond similarly.

But, compare that girl to somebody who is promiscuous simply because has a high sex-drive and, plain and simple, craves that much sex. Not the same thing at all. Then look at somebody who has the same sex drive, and responds by marrying somebody similar and staying in a monogamous relationship with them. Again, a different case.

Similarly, a person may have an intrinsic wiring that makes them homosexual, and they may live any number of lifestyles; or they may immitate one of those lifestyles out of some pathology, but not actually be homosexual.

 

[Ringo84]

Fine but what bothers me is that this was not one of the options to begin with. It never is. Why does it take me who is (half?) "homophobic" (since I have been accused of this so many times), to point this out?

I think the idea is that homosexuality is an activity not an identity. We are all just people and we are all created by God. But we have free will and make our own choices in regards to the direction our life takes. The world is full of people who say they cannot help themselves. Hey, wake up, that's the human race. We are all sinners and we cannot help ourselves.

I think that it's the way you were born. Just as being straight is the way a person was born.

The word is sinful not evil. And being "straight" or heterosexual is sinful. The whole idea of a sexual preference is abomnable, and if you go out hunting to satisfy these preferences, no matter what they are, it is sinful.

How can you not be "straight" or homosexual? If you pursue people of the opposite sex, you're straight. If not, you're gay. That's the way God made you.

I repudiate all these terms gay, straight, homosexual and heterosexaul. I just like everyone else first experienced feelings of romanitic love and sexual attraction in adolescence. You can call it uncontrollable urges in which you see no role of choice, but I call it falling in love in which choice is everything.

Those were natural feelings. We were all born with the desire to eventually procreate, whether that procreation takes the form of hetero- or homosexual liaisons.

True, it only talks about sexual activities between members of the same sex. It doesn't give any details so I guess you are free to judge which sexual activities between members of the same sex are shameful and what is not. However I find it quite understandable that some Christians do not wish to play such games with this passage in the Bible.

Well, I understand that, but like everything else, verses in the Bible are subject to interpretation. It's not "playing a game".

This was a poll. It was an invitation to express our opinions. It was an experiment to see if people with different opinions could respect each other while discussing this issue. He is a Christian and he believes in the Bible. Is that really so hard to understand?

Yes, I understand all of that. You don't think I'm a Christian and don't believe the Bible?
Ringo

 

[relspace]

How can you not be "straight" or homosexual? If you pursue people of the opposite sex, you're straight. If not, you're gay. That's the way God made you.

Since I do not pursue people of any sex I must be neither straight, gay nor bisexual. I believe that you do not have to think in terms of sexual preferences let alone define yourself by them. I think it is because I do not do so that I was able to see the deplorable lack of the new option 7. Nor do I blame all my choices in life on God or anyone else. God made me but God is not responsible for my actions or my desires.

Sure there may be all kinds of physiological and psychological influences on a what kind of person someone may be attracted to, but choice also plays a role and there is no need to invade peoples privacy by dissecting these reasons. It is sufficient to respect thier right to make their own choices about how they will live their own lives.

Well, I understand that, but like everything else, verses in the Bible are subject to interpretation. It's not "playing a game".

Yes, I understand all of that. You don't think I'm a Christian and don't believe the Bible?
Ringo

I not only understand but I agree with you. Interpretation is unavoidable. I was simply trying to see what I thought was his point of view, that splitting hairs on what activities in particular are refered to in the passage in Romans might not be wise. I could see how he might see it as playing games with the passage, I was not actually accusing you of doing so. I take the Bible seriously and I will not modify one jot of it. But ultimately it is I who must make sense of it in the context of my life and figure out how to put what it says into practice in my life.