Why are there still apes?

doubtingmerle

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This would require the PoE itself to be conscious.
Nope.

If some creatures where in circumstances where hair was a disadvantage, then they would tend to keep any mutation that caused less hair. If others were in circumstances where hair was an advantage, they would tend to keep any mutation that caused more.
 
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AV1611VET

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Literally...
I proposed a way to test their theory, but the guy I proposed it to cried ETHICS and declined.

So much for the scientific method.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Take everyone on Guam, put them at the North Pole, surrounded by hungry polar bears, make sure they have enough food to survive for as long as they want, but make them have to stand most of the time, and see if they're even in the mood to procreate.

Alternatively, take a number of Europeans in the 17th century, and put them on ships going to America, where many die in the first year. Did they find enough food to survive? Some did. Did they survive attacks from natives and animals? Some did. Did they stay? Some did. Were they wanting to procreate? Some did. And the rest is history.
 
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AV1611VET

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Alternatively, take a number of Europeans in the 17th century, and put them on ships going to America, where many die in the first year. Did they find enough food to survive? Some did. Did they survive attacks from natives and animals? Some did. Did they stay? Some did. Were they wanting to procreate? Some did. And the rest is history.
Ya ... ditto for those who entered the Promised Land under Joshua.

But they all had something (Someone, actually) in common that apes didn't.

And they weren't running on simian impulses like the ones in the OP were.
 
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Tone

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Back in the forest, the sense of smell and sight were far too important for frivolous things like cognition


So the foolish things became wise.

Here's another spin on it:

"Back in the forest the sense of smell, sight, and cognition were far too important for frivolous things like a spiritual relationship with the Creator."
 
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Greengardener

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This was an entertaining read, but since none of us really knows nor can we prove anything about it, it was just a reading of fiction and opinions, proving one thing for sure: we all have brain power in the form of imagination and information processing, and it proves we can type. To use that demonstrated brain power for continual process improvement is a good thing we could all agree about, right? So those of us who believe the One True God Creator deeply desires a relationship with His People (the mankind people He made in His own image) can apply themselves to the words He gave us to make life work. The non-theistic thinkers among us can figure their own ways to add good to the world by ethical behaviors with altruistic purpose that overcomes the base instincts humans struggle with. In the long run we might get the real story, and in that case, I anticipate that will be an interesting day. In the short run this is a small planet and I'm not interested in tossing grenades among us, so I have no dog in this fight and nothing much to add. If we get to the end and we are all just dead, I still think living like I do now is the best plan. Thanks for the entertaining read, everyone!
 
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Jok

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If people evolved from apes, why are there still apes?
A better question is why have ape brains not evolved to protect themselves from the destruction that the human brained species causes on the world, which is a direct threat to apes? Evolution can’t see the forest, it can only see the trees?
Short answer: Because apes have found a different method of survival.
They won’t survive if humans destroy the world.
Some of these creatures lost some of their sense of sight and smell in order to develop cognitive brainpower.
Yes, these creatures became enlightened.
They were living in a new environment, and needed to figure out how to survive. Why didn't all creatures do this? Back in the forest, the sense of smell and sight were far too important for frivolous things like cognition.
Frivolous? We obsessively search the stars for signs of another enlightened species that is somewhere out there with this cognition. It is hardly treated as a frivolous attribute. This frivolous attribute has given humans a monopoly on the planet in a way that is a direct threat to apes, the doomsday clock is very much a factor for apes. Humans are responsible for the extinction of so many species. Why is evolution so blind when it comes to viewing the forest? It is only concerned with local environmental conditions?

A better angle to look at this situation might not involve the word frivolous but the word dangerous. Instead of saying apes did not need this “Frivolous” trait, what about the strange notion that Homo Sapiens DID need this “Dangerous” trait! Why would we need it? Surely many species were taken away from trees and/or evolved to see over grass yet it didn’t cause an evolved attribute that set a potential path for a doomsday clock.
Some of these creatures started to use simple tools in new, creative ways. Why didn't all creatures do this? They were not smart enough.
They were not smart enough to use tools because evolution didn’t allow their brains to grow. It was written in the cards that we would start using tools and dominate/harm the world after evolution allowed our brains to grow to a point of enlightenment. Why did evolution take this path with us? Why would not living around trees anymore result in becoming enlightened to the capacity of starting a doomsday clock on the other species? Again lots of species that were separated from trees throughout Earth’s history certainly didn’t result in self enlightenment world destruction capabilities.
Some of these creatures saw sparks when they struck stones together, and learned how to harness them to make fires for warmth and protection. Why didn't all creatures do this? They did not have the brainpower, tools, or available hands.
Right. The entire thing revolves around evolution giving us the brainpower. That’s it! We didn’t get where we are via a path that started due to us luckily seeing sparks one day, it was because evolution ONLY gave us the self awareness brainpower. Nothing coincidental had to open our eyes to start a course for how human history played out, it was written in the cards after evolution gave us larger enlightened brains.
Some of these creatures lost their hair and developed strong sweat glands. This allowed them to chase prey for a long time in the hot sun until the prey collapsed in exhaustion. Why didn't all creatures do this? They did not have fire and animal skins to keep them warm at nights, so they needed their hair.

Some of these creatures began to use fires to cook, making their food safer and easier to digest. Why didn't all creatures do this? They didn't know how to make fires.
You’re just giving example after example of what large brained animals can do that smaller brained animals can’t do. Who is arguing against this?
Some of these creatures spent many hours talking about things around the campfire while their food cooked. They developed complex brains to understand complex communications. Why didn't all creatures do this? Their brains were too small to understand language.
Yep.
Some of these creatures used their brain power to get more protein, so they could grow bigger brains, so they could get more protein, so they could get bigger brains, etc. Why didn't all creatures do this? They had been left out of this arms race long ago.
Lol huh? You’re saying that we grew our own brains now, because we like protein? What a reach!
Some of these creatures learned to gossip. Gossiping left everybody know who they could trust and who they could not trust. They learned to build complex relationships based on freely helping each other. Then they would talk about who responded with reciprocity and who did not. If they tried to cheat, somebody would tell on them. Why didn't all creatures gossip? Gossiping requires brainpower.

Some of these creatures developed complex math skills. For instance, they learned to calculate the tide schedule, so they would leave the safety of their caves only in that short period of time when the tide made it optimal to find shellfish on the beach. Why didn't all creatures do this? Math is not for dummys.

Some of these creatures dominated the available resources, leaving intermediates and other competitors to die out for lack of resources. Why didn't all the competitors do this? They would have if they could have.
This can all be simplified so easily, evolution gave our species large enlightened brains. That’s all. Nothing outside of that is a causal necessity for this or that. Kill us all off with a nuclear holocaust, let one species evolve a large enlightened brain again and it would all follow a similar course all over again. You’re overthinking this.
Meanwhile, the great apes stayed in the forest, remaining quite adept at a totally different lifestyle.

And that is why there are humans, and there are still apes.
Well it’s weird that evolution is so blind to the big picture, since humans are a threat to apes it’s interesting that an evolutionary brain growth hasn’t taken place for them as well.
 
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driewerf

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I proposed a way to test their theory, but the guy I proposed it to cried ETHICS and declined.

So much for the scientific method.
Is it shocking to you that an atheist does NOT see his fellow human beings as "just a bag of chemicals"?
Any way, what you proposed has been done, not with humans, but with Italian wall lizards, that were relocated to an island named Pod Mrcraru. Their new habitat did not inhibit their libido, since there are still lizards.
It's late here in Europe, I will look up the details tomorrow. I just give you already this:
Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home
Italian wall lizard - Wikipedia
The Lizards Of Pod Mrcaru - Evolutionary Theodicy - Fossil Hunters

and a much more technical paper:
Rapid large-scale evolutionary divergence in morphology and performance associated with exploitation of a different dietary resource

kind regards,
driewerf
 
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AV1611VET

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It's late here in Europe, I will look up the details tomorrow.
Please don't bother on my account, driewerf. This thread is, in my opinion, a fairy tale.

A bedtime story that only a true evolutionist would like.
 
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Shemjaza

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Again ... why would they do that?

ESPECIALLY if they have to change their posture to a more laborious one, just to keep from getting eaten?
Populations grow and they needed more space for their brethren.

They also didn't to be upright, it was just an advantage when it developed.

There are plenty of primates in Africa who survive on varying levels of all-fours.

And wouldn't these erect brainiacs be intelligent enough to go back and liberate their stooped dum dum brethren?

And why have the jungle dwelling humans not reverted back to monkeys?

Wait, why would they need so much fur in a sweltering jungle anyways and are we talking apes or monkeys here?

Eons passed passed between the apes who become human moving onto the savanna and their brothers and sisters who became chimps stayed in the jungle.

Being a human is massively more advantageous then being a monkey, even in the jungle... it's just that the pathway to becoming human has never opened up for the monkeys who stayed there.

Mammals almost all have a coat of fur, it protects them from the sun and keeps them warm when it's cold. The exact reason for humans losing their fur isn't known... it may just be a freak mutation.

But one likely scenario is that as endurance hunters humans benefited from not having hair so they could sweat more efficiently over long distance runs.
 
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coffee4u

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If people evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

Because apes are animals created on the sixth day, created to breed after their kind. They were and always will be, apes.
 
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Tone

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Because apes are animals created on the sixth day, created to breed after their kind. They were and always will be, apes.

Yes, for the same reason that lemon trees produce lemons...that produce...lemon trees!
 
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SkyWriting

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If people evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

Humans are still classified as great apes, today.
Though we're not as big as big apes.
 
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coffee4u

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Humans are still classified as great apes, today.
Though we're not as big as big apes.

It doesn't matter what people classify humans as, God classified everything first and his word stands. Apes and humans are NOT the same family.
1 Corinthians 15:39
Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
 
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Shemjaza

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Jok

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Homo erectus,
Homo habbilis,
Australopithecus afarensis

They absolutely exist.

You can disbelieve in evolution for all the religious reasons you like... but the existence of animals who show no clear line between "ape" and "man" are points of fact.
Did you mean to say the existence of animals who show a clear line between ape and man (instead of saying no clear line)? Because your links seem to imply you meant to say there is a clear line.
 
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