why are there so many evil people in the world?

[renniks]

When you "do something for some one else", do you not gain an increased measure of sukha/satisfaction from that act, for yourself?

Sometimes, but that is not my reason for doing it. See the difference?
And honestly, sometimes doing stuff for others, and not being appreciated for it just sucks, but that's not a good reason to become weary with well doing. Life isn't about making ourselves happy, or at least it shouldn't be.
The same thing applies to work, it's not done to make me happy, it's done because it needs to be, and actually it's my attitude that determines whether I get happiness from it, or as Solomon says, "pain and grief."

 

[Tinker Grey]

God says you are a fool, not me.

Did you or did you not quote it? Did you or did you not direct it at non-believers?

Take responsibility for your actions.

 

[ananda]

Sometimes, but that is not my reason for doing it. See the difference?

No, please explain what your reason is for doing it.

And honestly, sometimes doing stuff for others, and not being appreciated for it just sucks, but that's not a good reason to become weary with well doing. Life isn't about making ourselves happy, or at least it shouldn't be.
The same thing applies to work, it's not done to make me happy, it's done because it needs to be, and actually it's my attitude that determines whether I get happiness from it, or as Solomon says, "pain and grief."

I do stuff for others, even if it is not appreciated, because I would experience more dukkha if I didn't do it.

I work because the alternative - not working, and being on the streets - would also give me more dukkha.

 

[Allandavid]

God says you are a fool, not me.

Not true. Those words were written by a man...

 

[stevil]

Did you or did you not quote it? Did you or did you not direct it at non-believers?

Take responsibility for your actions.

That's also the thing,

Many people profess to know what god thinks, what god's judgment is of others,

They treat their god as if it is an automated logic machine rather than a conscious being that makes decisions based on complex criteria.
Their view of their god's thoughts and opinions (strangely enough) end up being in complete agreement with their own thoughts and opinions.
Basically it is a way of elevating their own opinions to the status of god's opinions.

Also this deal with angels and demons, "the devil made me do it", is ultimately a way of rejecting personal accountability.
We are all adults here, we make our own choices, not god, not the devil, not angels, not demons. We make our choices and we live with those choices, and sometimes society or law makes us accountable for those choices.
To try and avoid accountability is a cop out.

You don't listen to a great pianist and say "I wish I could play like that"
That's not how reality works.
If you want to be a great pianist then you buy a piano, you take lessons, you put a great many hours into learning. It comes via hard work not wishes and prayers.

You want something, you be accountable and put in the effort.
Put yourself in the driver's seat. And then when you become great, well it wasn't by the grace of god, it wasn't god's gift, it was you. You did the hard yards.

 

[Rajni]

Was Hitler insane? Was Manson insane? Was Timothy Mcveigh insane? Manson, maybe. They all killed for reasons they thought were justified, but were just really just evil.

You actually think those people were sane?

 

[renniks]

You actually think those people were sane?

Of course. Being insane and being evil are two different things.

 

[renniks]

No, please explain what your reason is for doing it.

Because God himself said it's more blessed to give than receive. Truth is we don't always get that blessing in the here and now. But even doing it for eternal reward is missing the point. Doing good should flow naturally from the Spirit's work in us. It's part of giving God glory, which is why we are here in the world. Everything should ultimately be about him. There's no higher purpose for doing anything.

 

[ananda]

Because God himself said it's more blessed to give than receive. Truth is we don't always get that blessing in the here and now. But even doing it for eternal reward is missing the point. Doing good should flow naturally from the Spirit's work in us. It's part of giving God glory, which is why we are here in the world. Everything should ultimately be about him. There's no higher purpose for doing anything.

Let's pretend you were an agnostic, investigating a number of different religions you are considering adopting.

If a deity of a specific religion you were studying promised you an eternity of suffering for doing certain things for his glory, would you seriously consider that religion?

 

[renniks]

Let's pretend you were an agnostic, investigating a number of different religions you are considering adopting.

If a deity of a specific religion you were studying promised you an eternity of suffering for doing certain things for his glory, would you seriously consider that religion?

If you think that is what Christianity teaches, you are mistaken. I'm not sure I understand the question. God isn't willing that any suffer for eternity, but he won't force you to join his kingdom.

 

[ananda]

If you think that is what Christianity teaches, you are mistaken. I'm not sure I understand the question. God isn't willing that any suffer for eternity, but he won't force you to join his kingdom.

My point was that people join religions for their promise of eternal sukkha, which means that our highest purpose is our search for that eternal sukkha.

Honoring the god(s) of that religion/doing good/doing good for others/etc. are just means towards that end.

Nobody would join a religion to honor its god if that god promise eternal suffering.

 

[renniks]

Honoring the god(s) of that religion/doing good/doing good for others/etc. are just means towards that end.

I think this is at best an oversimplification. We follow God for his glory, more than our own. Yes, it results in rewards eventually, but most often they are not immediate, and we should be doing good for the love of others, not just for the final reward. It's not "just a means toward that end." Love is only pure when it's unselfish. Jesus gave himself, his very life, in this way for us, and of course, that is our greatest example of how we should be towards others. And of course, what is our reward? It is a relationship with God, not material goods that soon break. So, even the reward really glorifies God, because he is most glorified when we are the most alive in him. As Iraneus said. "The glory of God is man fully alive."

 

[ananda]

I think this is at best an oversimplification. We follow God for his glory, more than our own. Yes, it results in rewards eventually, but most often they are not immediate, and we should be doing good for the love of others, not just for the final reward. It's not "just a means toward that end." Love is only pure when it's unselfish. Jesus gave himself, his very life, in this way for us, and of course, that is our greatest example of how we should be towards others. And of course, what is our reward? It is a relationship with God, not material goods that soon break. So, even the reward really glorifies God, because he is most glorified when we are the most alive in him. As Iraneus said. "The glory of God is man fully alive."

IMO pretty much everything we do - even "unselfish" acts - are ultimately rooted in selfish reasons.

 

[renniks]

IMO pretty much everything we do - even "unselfish" acts - are ultimately rooted in selfish reasons.

I don't think so. I want my children to have fulfilling lives for their sakes, not mine.

 

[ananda]

I don't think so. I want my children to have fulfilling lives for their sakes, not mine.

I want the same for my children. I also recognize that my desire for them is because knowing that they're living fulfilled lives gives me a sense of fulfillment, and if they aren't, it gives me a sense of suffering as well.

 

[renniks]

I want the same for my children. I also recognize that my desire for them is because knowing that they're living fulfilled lives gives me a sense of fulfillment, and if they aren't, it gives me a sense of suffering as well.

Jesus turned selfishness upside down. He made suffering redemptive. He works even the bad things in the world for good for those who love him.

 

[Rajni]

Of course. Being insane and being evil are two different things.

You've run the tests and can verify that they
were completely sane in spite of the obvious?

 

[Rajni]

Jesus turned selfishness upside down. He made suffering redemptive. He works even the bad things in the world for good for those who love him.

This just underscores ananda's point even further.
Ultimately we all do what we believe will result in
the least suffering/most good, whether that good
comes sooner or later.

It all comes back to alleviating personal suffering
and advancing personal happiness. The act of
transforming suffering into redemption or even
into joy illustrates this.

 

[renniks]

This just underscores ananda's point even further.
Ultimately we all do what we believe will result in
the least suffering/most good, whether that good
comes sooner or later.

It all comes back to alleviating personal suffering
and advancing personal happiness. The act of
transforming suffering into redemption or even
into joy illustrates this.

Which is it? Alleviating suffering for others is not the same as advancing personal happiness.

 

[renniks]

You've run the tests and can verify that they
were completely sane in spite of the obvious?

Nothing obvious about it. Many sane people do evil things.