Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

[bhsmte]

“He who turns away his ear from hearing the divine law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.”

You rely on quotes a lot.

Have any evidence to actually support this?

 

[bhsmte]

That's his MO.

Indeed.

I love to be entertained.

 

[Freodin]

Interesting view. Do you think this is a necessary result of being Christian, or just a common one?

As I said: "like any other religion". The behaviour is quite common, though Christianity is the only group that I am aware of that deliberately tries to conceal it.

Sorry, this question doesn't make sense to me, but I will take am stab at it. If you are asking whether I should have expected any different than what I have, then no, I see my understanding of the words in these materials to be totally the result of what those words have been used to mean to me, as consistent patterns in my past. If you are asking if I am able to break that understanding and apply new meanings to the same words and phrases I an misunderstanding, yes I do think that is possible, but I will need educating accordingly. I expect these missionaries have used these words because they appeal naturally to those who accept substitutionary atonement doctrines. Most Christians are of that persuasion.

As I understand, you have met a group of "missionaries" who converse with you about your and their faith, explain their view, give you their answers to your questions... "educate" you.
I have been confronted with quite a number of "missionating" views - religious and others - in my life, and I know from experience that a view that you are directly exposed to, can question and discuss, perhaps even in direct personal contact... such a view is always more convincing than a view that you are only indirectly faced with, where you can only passively recept, without the option to question.

Bearing than in mind, my question was meant to ask: could you imagine being in contact with a group of a different persuasion, answering your question in a different way...don't you think you would feel similar as you do now?

And, if it isn't too personal a question... what kind of "missionaries" are you talking about?

OK, let's come back to that once we have agreed to a definition of sin.

I fear we will not be able to do that. It is part of the basic difference between our two positions.

The best I could try to describe it in a neutral way: sin is the conscious acting against a relevant set of rules.

But I guess we won't find common ground to agree on what is "relevant" here.

I do not agree with this. The reason I do not agree with it, is because sin is not a constant problem, but it is only a problem that occurs at times. Just as desiring fruit. If for some reason you found that desiring fruit was a problem, and sometimes you desired fruit, then your desire for fruit is a problem. You might not desire fruit right now, but you have in the past, and there is no real guarantee that you will not again desire fruit.

See, here we are already in the midst of the disagreement. What is "a problem"? When does you desire (of fruit) cause a problem? What are the relevant rules?

I found my answer. I doubt you will accept it.

Not necessarily. It sure is a common tactic for some people. In fact, I believe everyone does this to some extent sometimes. Eg, speeding when they know a police is not watching, yet when they see police, they will be honest about their speed. Because people calculate that the truth can be concealed, if the truth is not convenient to them, they can conveniently choose to conceal the truth, knowing they cannot be proven to be lying. I know it happens, so it definitely is not a cop-out. It is a serious possibility to be investigated.

Well... yes. You do have a point here: there are people lying about their behaviour. These people, even in my understanding, "sin".
But the problem here is again a logical one: If someone doesn't sin, and doesn't lie about it... how would you be able to know that, when you can just assume that they dosin and do lie about it... because everyone does!

"All crows are black." is such a claim. How would you be able to disprove that, when you can assume that the white crow you are presented with is just a fake... must be a fake, because all crows are black?

You have added a judgment to this that is not necessary, and it seems to indicate this probably is what you feel could be the right idea to investigate.

So let's investigate!

You have not shown that it is a false example. You have shown that you are not following instructions properly, by using faulty equipment in your test.

I disagree. You still assert that you can evaluate the efficiency of the test based on the outcome, nothing else. Your example does not show that, for the reasons I provided. You could be starting with the wrong testobject. You could be using the wrong test procedure.

Yes. But it would produce proof beyond reasonable doubt, which you might have not had before performing the test.

You have already discarded "reasonable doubt" at the very beginning of your test. Any result you will get will meet your expectations... because you have set your expectations accordingly.

No, you need to stop using fallacies and use convincing arguments. IPU is designed to be a straw man.

As Christianity is designed to placate the unruly masses?

You really need to think outside of your box.

See, you think that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is a fake. A "straw man" (straw pink horse?) made up to go against certain theological arguments. A man made invention. Thus, based on this starting assumption, you are unwilling / unable to partake in this "test". Even if you did, you would interprete the results based on this your initial premise.

I think Christianity - like all religions - is a "fake". It is a set of ideas made up to answer certain theological, moral and ethical questions. A man made invention. I am aware of that premise, and thus understand that I would interprete the results of the proposed "test" (which still is too vague to follow) accordingly.

So I am not asking anything more from you than you are asking from me.

Here I am: I tell you and assure you that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is much more than a man made straw man argument, that She is real and that She will grant you revelation if you ask Her correctly.
You have nothing to lose with taking this test. Just do it.

And I predict that, if that test fails to get the promised result, you will see it as a problem with my / Her promise... not with your practice.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

“He who turns away his ear from hearing the divine law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.”

Shrimp is an abomination. Kind of meaningless to use against a snarker like myself.

 

[Colter]

You rely on quotes a lot.

Have any evidence to actually support this?

"The unselfish glories of Paradise are not possible of reception by a thoroughly selfish creature of the realms of time and space. Even the infinite love of God cannot force the salvation of eternal survival upon any mortal creature who does not choose to survive. Mercy has great latitude of bestowal, but, after all, there are mandates of justice which even love combined with mercy cannot effectively abrogate. Again Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures: “I have called and you refused to hear; I stretched out my hand, but no man regarded. You have set at naught all my counsel, and you have rejected my reproof, and because of this rebellious attitude it becomes inevitable that you shall call upon me and fail to receive an answer. Having rejected the way of life, you may seek me diligently in your times of suffering, but you will not find me.”

 

[bhsmte]

"The unselfish glories of Paradise are not possible of reception by a thoroughly selfish creature of the realms of time and space. Even the infinite love of God cannot force the salvation of eternal survival upon any mortal creature who does not choose to survive. Mercy has great latitude of bestowal, but, after all, there are mandates of justice which even love combined with mercy cannot effectively abrogate. Again Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures: “I have called and you refused to hear; I stretched out my hand, but no man regarded. You have set at naught all my counsel, and you have rejected my reproof, and because of this rebellious attitude it becomes inevitable that you shall call upon me and fail to receive an answer. Having rejected the way of life, you may seek me diligently in your times of suffering, but you will not find me.”

Ah, more quotes to support the quotes.

And round and round we go.

 

[Colter]

Shrimp is an abomination. Kind of meaningless to use against a snarker like myself.

Naw, you are just a common troll, a thread pest, not a serious person.

 

[jmldn2]

He means that belief is not a deliberate choice. We don't choose to be convinced or not convinced; we either are or we aren't. We can choose to investigate. We can choose to examine the evidence or we can even choose to ignore it. But we cannot choose to be convinced of something that we aren't convinced of.

Oh I do disagree about the matter of "choice." I think any/all beliefs (whether christian or not) are a matter of choice. I do agree we must research, study and investigate. That process should be for any issue.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Oh I do disagree about the matter of "choice." I think any/all beliefs (whether christian or not) are a matter of choice. I do agree we must research, study and investigate. That process should be for any issue.

Can you choose to believe right now that there is a pink unicorn in your bedroom?

 

[jmldn2]

I don't mind hearing from atheists or anyone for that matter, either for or against God. People have a belief system/or no belief system or are confused period. The only requirement for me is that no matter what you believe or not believe that you present it without hatefulness or ugliness. Attack the idea perhaps but not the messenger.

 

[bhsmte]

Oh I do disagree about the matter of "choice." I think any/all beliefs (whether christian or not) are a matter of choice. I do agree we must research, study and investigate. That process should be for any issue.

I don't know what your favorite color is, but could you make a choice today, to disregard your favorite color and pick another one and now have this be your "true" favorite color?

If a person grows up in a certain city and is an ardent sports fan of that cities teams, could they today simply choose to become a true fan of their arch rival cities team and have that be an honest choice?

You see, such things as belief in God and our overall philosophies, are deeply routed in our personal psyche and there are many variables that come into play in how they are formed. Many of those variables are not conscious choices and we simply can not change them on a dime by choice, without playing mind games with ourself.

 

[jmldn2]

Can you choose to believe right now that there is a pink unicorn in your bedroom?

I have a choice which can be followed up with my visual acuity and my brain as to whether or not there is a pink unicorn in my bedroom. Actually, I'd love to see one. lol

 

[jmldn2]

I don't know what your favorite color is, but could you make a choice today, to disregard your favorite color and pick another one and now have this be your "true" favorite color?

If a person grows up in a certain city and is an ardent sports fan of that cities teams, could they today simply choose to become a true fan of their arch rival cities team and have that be an honest choice?

You see, such things as belief in God and our overall philosophies, are deeply routed in our personal psyche and there are many variables that come into play in how they are formed. Many of those variables are not conscious choices and we simply can not change them on a dime by choice, without playing mind games with ourself.

Like I said choice is a matter after one researches, studies, and then makes a conscience decision. I love the color of blue but then again, if I were to subjected to another color that "dazzles" me, I can make another "choice." The belief in God is a choice. Yes, how we are brought up and our environment may be a strong influence but all of us reach a certain age/time in our lives where we use all the resources within our reach to make a choice.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I have a choice which can be followed up with my visual acuity and my brain as to whether or not there is a pink unicorn in my bedroom. Actually, I'd love to see one. lol

Are you able to choose, at any given moment, to sincerely believe that there is a pink unicorn in your bedroom? Are you able to choose to believe this even after going into your bedroom and finding that there is no unicorn there?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Like I said choice is a matter after one researches, studies, and then makes a conscience decision. I love the color of blue but then again, if I were to subjected to another color that "dazzles" me, I can make another "choice." The belief in God is a choice. Yes, how we are brought up and our environment may be a strong influence but all of us reach a certain age/time in our lives where we use all the resources within our reach to make a choice.

So you could, at this very moment, choose to believe in a different god or no god at all? Your beliefs are totally at the mercy of your will?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Naw, you are just a common troll, a thread pest, not a serious person.

You just don't make good enough arguments.

 

[Colter]

You just don't make good enough arguments.

You just don't make good enough arguments.

I think it's the new format, it's messing up my fabulous replies.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Yea I've seen Xenforo used before and it's never been so... eh. I think they're still working out the kinks and finishing up.

 

[Joshua260]

I'm making an assertive claim that there is no evidence supporting the God you preach exists. If you consider that an active "lack of belief," ok then.

I remember you saying that you made an assertive claim that the Christian God did not exist, and then I asked you to clarify whether you knew that the Christian god did not exist or whether simply believed that the Christian god exists. Were you planning to clarify or just ignore it and hope I'd forget the conversation?

 

[HammerOfThor]

How many days has this thread been offtopic?