Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

Kristin E said:

Nope not everything... Humor aside I'd recommend doing some research it would do you a lot of good.

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I joined this forum 13 years ago, because I had stumbled (in another, completely unrelated forum) over Kent Hovind and his... stuff. He had linked to ChristianForums as "his" forum... the old fraud.

So don't assume I haven't done enough research.

Kristin E said:

Nope not everything... Humor aside I'd recommend doing some research it would do you a lot of good.

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Wait, weren't you the one spouting Hovind earlier?

to answer the original question--I think atheists come here because they have, buried deep in their soul, the knowledge that there is something more in this world, and that's what we talk about here. I used to call myself an atheist long ago. Doubt, skepticism, wondering if there is a God, are all normal parts of life. To me, people in the phase of their lives where they identify as an "atheist" are often very engaged in the question of God and whether he exists. Therefore, a community of people talking about God and our relation to him would present a very attractive proposition to someone who is embroiled in a quest for truth and struggling to find something beyond our comprehension.

I imagine your conversation would go something like this... "hello young children with cancer, I know a guy who created the disease that will kill you, and not only that, but he could cure you if he wanted too, but unfortunately, he won't. But you can keep praying of course, just in case he does give a rip.





Yeah, my sensibilities wouldn't allow me to kill young undeserving children as a direct result of my will. Sorry if you consider this ignorant, but at least I'd sleep well at night.



Oops. Guess the big guy didn't see that one comin'.






Yet, that's exactly what this world looks like though. It's as if your god/s doesn't exist at all.

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Then I would assume your conversation with such an unfortunate child would go like this:

"My concept of God is so small and artificial that I lack the conceptual framework to envision that there may be something that I didn't think about. So all that I have to offer a dying child is pessimistic despair. What's that? You would rather talk to Colter because at least he offers a better vision then my morose world view? And you are offering me your depression meds and pain killers????"

Scripture Police said:

Christ's existence here is just as factual as evolution. Scientifically speaking of course.

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Then why does shoolars debate the factual existence of Christ but not evolution?

Scripture Police said:

The way you know if it's true or not for yourself is by reading his words.

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Does this method apply to any text? For instance if I read Harry Potter and think it is true will it then be true? If not, why does it apply to the Bible only?

Scripture Police said:

Stop pointing flaws in people and start showing the flaws in Christ.

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Chirst made a lot of promises which involves people. How their lieves should be transformed if they believed in him, how they would get power to withstand things if they believed in him, etc, etc. Therefore it is fair to look at how people behave and draw conclusions. But you don't think this is fair. Instead you suggest that one should read the bible and then delude oneself that it must be true to make it true and on top of that you request rational reasoning people to take you serious.

Colter said:

We are finally getting to the heart of the matter, Atheist have an idea of God but he doesn't live down to it, so they conclude that he does not exist because he wont make exceptions to the accidents of time in a material cosmos.

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Not quite. Atheists are confronted with a whole load of ideas of God, that, under closer observation, he does not live down. So they conclude that this concept of God is rather lacking. They stay atheists, because every concept of God they ever encounter has this fatal flaw.

Freodin said:

I didn't assume you did.

I can accept that you believe you have found something good and worthwhile to share. It is nothing I cannot understand: I almost feel the same.
It is the sharing part that bothers me: I know that I cannot share my feelings, my experiences. And I can understand why some Christians feel frustrated, because they are taught that they should share this... and they just cannot.

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I can agree with you that it's not the best practice to approach a random stranger on the street and say "Hey have you heard..?". But isn't that why we have this forum here to discuss our points of view about God? You obviously have a story to tell, and you should. The original post for this thread was most likely to enlighten us believers as to why there are so many unbelievers on the forum. You've had reason to post for thirteen years about something you do not believe in, and that would make anyone especially a Christian curious.

May I ask what your tagline refers to?

Colter said:

We are finally getting to the heart of the matter, Atheist have an idea of God but he doesn't live down to it, so they conclude that he does not exist because he wont make exceptions to the accidents of time in a material cosmos.

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Very creative.

GillDouglas said:

I can agree with you that it's not the best practice to approach a random stranger on the street and say "Hey have you heard..?". But isn't that why we have this forum here to discuss our points of view about God? You obviously have a story to tell, and you should. The original post for this thread was most likely to enlighten us believers as to why there are so many unbelievers on the forum. You've had reason to post for thirteen years about something you do not believe in, and that would make anyone especially a Christian curious.

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Basically, I like it here. It is (mostly) a very friendly forum... and as I said, I find it amusing.
Much of my posting history is still available... sadly all the posts in the old "general apologetics" forum were deleted when this part of the forum was killed... and one can see that I mostly react / respond instead of initiate conversations. I watch for topics that interest me and try to point out the flaws in other peoples argumentation / position... mostly regarding atheism or the atheists view on morality.
Over the years, I have found that I also use this forum as a kind of personal reference / logbook in regard to my belief. I find it interesting to look at posts a decade old... and see how consistent my views have been overall. Firm in faith, you could say.

May I ask what your tagline refers to?

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It's part of a german poem, by the very famous poet Goethe. It sounds rather anti-theisic in whole, though the author meant it more in a secular anti-autoritarian way... and rescinded his view later when he became a member of the establishment. I always liked it, it's stance, it's tone... and even like how old Goethe comes to disagree with young Goethe: I heartly dislike all the other Goethe stuff... he was, in many ways, a rare pompous idiot.

You can read the whole poem and an english translation here.

Or are you referring to my custom title: "Devout believer in a theologically different God"?
This is a little joke I made in response to Colter - our resident Urantian whom you will have met in this thread. He once asserted that, while his revelation is of course the only correct one, all other religions are at least believing in God... exept for the evil atheists who fight against God. He called the other religion's deities "theologically different gods".

So I said: hey, then I too believe in God... it is just a theologically completely different one.

Hasn't convinced him... but I like it.

Colter said:

We are finally getting to the heart of the matter, Atheist have an idea of God but he doesn't live down to it, so they conclude that he does not exist because he wont make exceptions to the accidents of time in a material cosmos.

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There is no such things as atheists conclude something for a unified specific reasons. Very few atheists even conclude the things you claim they do (that is known as strong atheism or gnostic atheism). Athiems is a lack of belief, some atheist has hard to believe the claim a god exists. Some atheists simply do not care at all. It does not matter for them weather god exists or not. Many atheists see no good reason, whatever those might be, for believing that a god exists. Some atheist are angry with the god they used to believe in. Some atheist has no reason at all to be atheist, they are atheist on faith, or gut feelings. Reasons, or lack of reasons, atheists have for not having faith varies wildly between atheists. So why do you generalize something that cannot be generalized? For instance, how does your claim apply to a half billion Buddhist which are atheist? How does you claim apply to atheists that believe in cosmic forces, ghost or spirits, or an eternal afterlife?

Scripture Police said:

No, all of life has subjectiveness to it, including your "logical view".

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Not commenting on what the other person said. I grant you that as long we deal with reality it is subjective. However, technicaly mathematics (which includes logic) has nothing to do with reality so that makes math independent on reality and as such it can state objective truth. The price math pays for objective truth is that it is not allowed to speak about reality. However, and this an astonising fact about math, it still correlates surprisingly strongly with reality. Therefore we tend to put a higher trust in mathematical truth than, say, human intuition. That does not put the fact aside that logical can be used in subjective or biased way, i.e. cherry picking facts, in some cases.

Colter said:

Then I would assume your conversation with such an unfortunate child would go like this:

"My concept of God is so small and artificial that I lack the conceptual framework to envision that there may be something that I didn't think about. So all that I have to offer a dying child is pessimistic despair. What's that? You would rather talk to Colter because at least he offers a better vision then my morose world view? And you are offering me your depression meds and pain killers????"

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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

oi_antz said:

Essentially you are suggesting. Should trust any man. I am suggesting I rather trust Jesus. i.

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In order to trust Jesus words you must first trust mans word that the word of the bible is Jesus words.

Colter said:

We are finally getting to the heart of the matter, Atheist have an idea of God but he doesn't live down to it, so they conclude that he does not exist because he wont make exceptions to the accidents of time in a material cosmos.

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The heart of the matter, is you claim god/s exist, atheists claim they don't. Until such time as you provide evidence for your claim, and quit asking us to dismiss evidence of the contrary, then atheism remains the default position.

Freodin said:

Or are you referring to my custom title: "Devout believer in a theologically different God"?
This is a little joke I made in response to Colter - our resident Urantian whom you will have met in this thread. He once asserted that, while his revelation is of course the only correct one, all other religions are at least believing in God... exept for the evil atheists who fight against God. He called the other religion's deities "theologically different gods".

So I said: hey, then I too believe in God... it is just a theologically completely different one.

Hasn't convinced him... but I like it.

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Yes, this is the one and thanks for the clarification. I have seen Colter's post, some of them I agree with others I do not. The idea that all religions are worshiping the same God I am not certain. I would say that at the very least the the Jews and Muslims worship the same God. Theology, as you know, is the study of and our interpretation about God. I thought by your tagline you too believed in God, but in a way other than Christianity.

I see you are from Germany. I had the opportunity to visit your great country a few years ago. I was there for work, but had chance to see many historic sites. You have a beautiful country!

GillDouglas said:

Whom do you think opened the 'door' you speak about?

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I had to make the decision to do that. I remember it was not easy. It definitely could only have happened because He conquered my demons first.

GillDouglas said:

How exactly did you come to know and accept Him?

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I got involved in a discussion where I could speak freely what I thought, and there was very robust Christian representation. Eventually I was brought to frustration as I mentioned, and begged God to tell me the truth. Then He showed me the truth that I could recognise, in one instant, and I had to concede I had been wrong and do a complete 180.

GillDouglas said:

Was it your doing or was it God's?

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I believe it was His.

GillDouglas said:

It seems to me the discussion that has evolved out of this thread has been failing to illustrate one simple truth and that is man cannot save himself. Apart from the grace that comes from God, there is no glad submission to His sovereign authority. There is no condition a man can meet before God chooses to save him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins, plain and simple. So to blame the individual for him not being chosen to saved by God seems a bit pointless.

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This is plain simple truth. I have not ever blamed any individual for not performing this test but rather I have even tried to emphasise that it is natural and normal for sinful human to resist doing it. All I have said is that the claim that God cannot he proven is not true because this demonstrates that anyone who seriously does want to, can do so.

GillDouglas said:

For those to have claim to have known Him and reject Him were never chosen by Him. The implication is that God will so work that those whom He has chosen for eternal salvation will be enabled by Him to persevere in faith to the end and fulfill, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the requirements for obedience.

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I think there is valid provision for circumstantial falling away of a faithful servant. At what point do you suggest He chooses a person for eternal salvation? I draw attention to His comment "many are called but few will be chosen".

GillDouglas said:

when I first realized the truth I wanted to tell everyone what I had learned, because of how much it had affected me.

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I can understand the feeling of wanting to share exitements one feel, but that does not mean it is true or correct. I been exited many times, and just as many times wrong.

My key point is: do not generalize when you do not have sufficnet evidence to do so.

GillDouglas said:

I really felt the need to share my story, and for some it was inspiring.

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Well, like I said, if it make people feel good and does not hurt anybody. Then who am I to judge...

GillDouglas said:

As I said earlier, this is the way God can use someone to bring them to Him.

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You are aware that you just made an unstained claim of explanation to an observed effect here, aren't you?

The effect you observed is: the power of God's words has none, nada, zip effect. An effect most, if not every, Christians noted. You explain this absent of power based on a biased belief ; because you see no effect and because you been promised that gods word are powerful to affect peoples mind then it must be that their minds are effected in someway even though you cannot see it right now. So you tell a story about "seeds" which are planted which in turn can be "watered" to later grow (in fact you did not even make up that story yourself but you was seeded with it, i.e told by someone). The whole purpose of this story is to explain why the power of God's words lack power when you speak them, it delays the moment of effect when you cannot observe it anymore. In other words, the story begs you to believ in faith that the power of God's word actually has an effect without providing any convincing evidence to support this claim of a delayed effect - an effect that you probably never will even observe since it most likely will be no such effect.

Don't you see how this is a self inflicted mind controlling system to help the mind deny the hars reality that God's words lack power?

GillDouglas said:

I can't argue with Christians feeling bad. I certainly felt horrible about how I had been living my life prior to knowing Christ.

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I don't know how you used to live your life. Why you feel it was horrible or even if it was actual horrible. For all I know it can just had been a feeling in your mind. I don't know. But it does not matter. What matters is they way you present religion. What you in effect say is that if you live a bad life then religion can offer you a better life to live. I dont dispute this. However, what about those that has a good life and don't believe. What do you have to offer them? Nothing...

GillDouglas said:

If I may quote the Bible, this verse speaks on that very thing.

"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:20-23 ESV

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To be honest, I don't think God has anything to do with how you feel now because the implication of it being true creates a very disturbing picture in my mind. For instance, why does god pick you to feel good, but not the little child that is dying in cancer, not to mention the child's parents? Your story is an anecdote, and a happy one. But fore every happy one I can tell you a hundred sad once. What you quote above is just more self imposed mind control to reinforce what you already believe to be true. I believe, whatever it was that made a change in your life, it is within yourself, and always has been. Sometime we just need a push to get over a threshold. Religion just help you get over some internal obstacles to reach that peace of mind you have now. Like I said, it was a cure that worked for you.

Archaeopteryx said:

So what happens when one hasn't been informed? Recall my earlier question about the test being biased by cultural familiarity with Christianity. What happens when someone who hasn't been exposed to Christianity takes the test?

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I cannot imagine how this would be possible. Can you please describe how you imagine it?

Archaeopteryx said:

What does that entail practically? You mentioned reading the Bible and prayer as examples. Is there anything else?

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I don't remember saying that, but I will address your question. A person living in healthy faithful relationship has very constant, intimate, loving bond with Him, even though it is a spiritual relationship. This means that the man's heart is always aligned toward God in love, praising Him, thanking Him, consulting Him, relying on Him etc. At some point in a person's life (quite frequently for some), this intimate relationship is broken, and He gets put outside of the person's heart. The man goes on in his life as he pleases, but without having this companionship with Him. (The same man can still be well educated in Christian matters and have good intentions to preach the truth they know). Anyhiw, at this point Jesus is standing outside and the person has closed the door. Jesus doesn't barge in and demand better treatment as I would, but instead just knocks to inform us that He desires reconciliation.

Archaeopteryx said:

Perhaps superfluous would be a better description. If the test requires you to already believe in order to yield the desired result (belief in Christianity), then the test is of no value. It doesn't lead people to Christian beliefs; it only confirms extant Christian beliefs.

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Correct. But it is a reliable test, that everyone is invited to perform without discrimination, that will produce proof beyond reasonable doubt. That is all I wanted to say to begin with.

Songsmith said:

I mean, not that I want them gone, but it just seems strange to me that so many atheists would choose to spend their time and eergy on a site that is antithetical to their worldview. The interesting thing to me is that they don't seem to be here to proselytize, which would make sense to me. I assume that they, or many of them anyway, feela sense of community here if they've been here for a while. So, if not to show the poor theist the freedom of atheism, what is the draw?

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Songsmith,

Perhaps they are looking for converts.

Kutte