Why are there religious people?

[quatona]

Actually, I'm more inclined to consider the possibilities.

And the problem with a lot of claims is that it´s nearly impossible to consider the possibilities, beyond saying "we can´t know, so there´s some possibility". The question is: How relevant, significant do we consider this academic possibility?

You tell me that there are no such things as pink unicorns.

No, most of us don´t. They tell you other things, e.g. that they don´t hold the belief that there are pink unicorns, that they consider the possible existence of pink unicorns insignificant and neglectible for any intent or purpose, that they don´t incorporate the possible existence of pink unicorns into their world view and their lives, ...
These are all statements that don´t equal "There are no pink unicorns".

I immediately think...how can he know that?

Well, as far as I have read the thread nobody told you they knew there were no pink unicorns or gods. That´s the part you keep missing.
You keep barking up the wrong tree. That´s why there is a need for this "silly tap dance" (as you call it): We don´t want our notions be misrepresented.

It's a huge universe...there could be a planet out there, somewhere, where pink unicorns are common.

Yes.
But that´s not the issue here. The issue is: Do you/I hold the belief that there are pink unicorns? I for one don´t.
If you don´t hold the belief that there are pink unicorns, if you don´t positively assert that there are none - does that involve a belief or a "faith"?

I have no evidence to prove that there is a planet where pink unicorns play...but I don't know that there isn't either.

Neither do I. And neither do I know that there are no gods. I just don´t hold the belief that there are.

And here´s another question regarding pink unicorns: How does the possibility that pink unicorns exist somewhere out in space affect your life? What is it you are doing to account for this possibility? How´s your life different than if you could know for sure that there are no pink unicorns?

 

[TheBarrd]

Why would your atheist friends have to find another centrepiece for their arguments? I don't see how this follows. Most atheists don't "discount the possibility" of a God; that is, they don't declare God to be an impossibility. Yes, it's possible that there is a God. But why should we believe that there really is one?

Just thinking...you wouldn't want to use pink unicorns any more if it should ever turn out that pink unicorns do exist. Of course, some folks don't like pink unicorns, or so I've been told.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Just thinking...you wouldn't want to use pink unicorns any more if it should ever turn out that pink unicorns do exist. Of course, some folks don't like pink unicorns, or so I've been told.

I don't follow...

 

[TheBarrd]

And the problem with a lot of claims is that it´s nearly impossible to consider the possibilities, beyond saying "we can´t know, so there´s some possibility". The question is: How relevant, significant do we consider this academic possibility?

I suppose each person needs to decide that for him/herself. When it comes to God, for me at least, the "academic possibility" is more relevant, more significant, than anything else.

No, most of us don´t. They tell you other things, e.g. that they don´t hold the belief that there are pink unicorns, that they consider the possible existence of pink unicorns insignificant and neglectible for any intent or purpose, that they don´t incorporate the possible existence of pink unicorns into their world view and their lives, ...
These are all statements that don´t equal "There are no pink unicorns".

Maybe we haven't been talking to the same people.

Well, as far as I have read the thread nobody told you they knew there were no pink unicorns or gods. That´s the part you keep missing.
You keep barking up the wrong tree. That´s why there is a need for this "silly tap dance" (as you call it): We don´t want our notions be misrepresented.

There is no appreciable difference between "I don't believe in pink unicorns" and "I have no belief in pink unicorns."

Yes.
But that´s not the issue here. The issue is: Do you/I hold the belief that there are pink unicorns? I for one don´t.
If you don´t hold the belief that there are pink unicorns, if you don´t positively assert that there are none - does that involve a belief or a "faith"?

If you do not know whether there are pink unicorns or not...and you don't...then your lack of belief in them does involve a "faith".

Neither do I. And neither do I know that there are no gods. I just don´t hold the belief that there are.

Semantic antics. You don't hold the belief that there are any gods. You admit that you do not know. Ergo, your stance, just like mine, is based on faith.

And here´s another question regarding pink unicorns: How does the possibility that pink unicorns exist somewhere out in space affect your life? What is it you are doing to account for this possibility? How´s your life different than if you could know for sure that there are no pink unicorns?

I kind of like the thought of a planet where pink unicorns play... I may do a children's book about it one day.
You never know, it could be a hit...involve movie rights...LOL, yeah...my life would definitely be different...

 

[TheBarrd]

I don't follow...

You don't think that comparing my belief in God to something that we know exists, like horses, might come off as slightly ridiculous?
Never mind...get some sleep, it'll come to you...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If you do not know whether there are pink unicorns or not...and you don't...then your lack of belief in them does involve a "faith".

What sort of faith does it involve?

Semantic antics. You don't hold the belief that there are any gods. You admit that you do not know. Ergo, your stance, just like mine, is based on faith.

Again, it bears repeating, lack of faith is not the same as faith. You keep confusing the two. I don't know whether there is an alien named Greeble on Pluto. It's possible that there is, but I have no good reason to believe that is the case. What faith is required to not believe this claim?

 

[quatona]

I suppose each person needs to decide that for him/herself. When it comes to God, for me at least, the "academic possibility" is more relevant, more significant, than anything else.

That´s your prerogative.

Maybe we haven't been talking to the same people.

Well, the posts are all here to see. How many people have said that they know gods don´t exist (I think none), that they hold the belief that no gods exist (I think none, maybe one or two), that they hold no belief that gods exists (I think pretty much every self-professing atheist here).
So I don´t know whom you have been talking to.

There is no appreciable difference between "I don't believe in pink unicorns" and "I have no belief in pink unicorns."

I never said there was. We have been there before. It´s not the issue. The issue is the difference between holding an belief and not holding a belief.

If you do not know whether there are pink unicorns or not...and you don't...then your lack of belief in them does involve a "faith".

Which faith (or faith in what) would that be, that I hold when I don´t hold a belief?

Semantic antics.

The irony.

You don't hold the belief that there are any gods. You admit that you do not know. Ergo, your stance, just like mine, is based on faith.

Again:
Which faith (or faith in what) would that be, that I hold when I don´t hold a belief?

I kind of like the thought of a planet where pink unicorns play... I may do a children's book about it one day.
You never know, it could be a hit...involve movie rights...LOL, yeah...my life would definitely be different...

That´s nice, but not an answer to the question I asked. Do you want me to reword it for you so you understand it better?

 

[TheBarrd]

What sort of faith does it involve?

If your "lack of belief" is not based purely on facts in evidence, then it is based on your faith. I believe there are trees is a belief based on evidence. I believe there are pink unicorns somewhere in the universe is a belief that is not based on evidence, therefore it is based on faith. I could change the wording a bit, and say that I hold a belief that there are pink unicorns somewhere in the universe, but that wouldn't change the fact that without first hand knowledge of these unicorns, or any evidence that they actually do exist, my stance is based on my faith.

Again, it bears repeating, lack of faith is not the same as faith. You keep confusing the two. I don't know whether there is an alien named Greeble on Pluto. It's possible that there is, but I have no good reason to believe that is the case. What faith is required to not believe this claim?

Aww, now you went and hurt poor Greeble's feelings.

See, you forgot that Pluto isn't a planet any more. Greeble actually lives on one of the moons of Jupiter.

The point you keep missing is that, unless you have some firsthand knowledge...you've been to Pluto and have explored every crevice in it...or you have some serious evidence, you cannot know what or who might live on Pluto. As ridiculous as it seems, your stance that no alien named Greeble lives there is based on faith.
Naming the alien doesn't change that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If your "lack of belief" is not based purely on facts in evidence, then it is based on your faith.

No, I lack belief because I see no reason to believe. I already made this clear in a previous post.

I believe there are trees is a belief based on evidence. I believe there are pink unicorns somewhere in the universe is a belief that is not based on evidence, therefore it is based on faith. I could change the wording a bit, and say that I hold a belief that there are pink unicorns somewhere in the universe, but that wouldn't change the fact that without first hand knowledge of these unicorns, or any evidence that they actually do exist, my stance is based on my faith.

What "faith" is required to not believe that there are pink unicorns? You do understand that one can admit the possibility of something being real without actually believing that it is?

See, you forgot that Pluto isn't a planet any more. Greeble actually lives on one of the moons of Jupiter.

The point you keep missing is that, unless you have some firsthand knowledge...you've been to Pluto and have explored every crevice in it...or you have some serious evidence, you cannot know what or who might live on Pluto. As ridiculous as it seems, your stance that no alien named Greeble lives there is based on faith.

Why would I need to investigate the entirety of Pluto? I see no reason to believe there is an alien named Greeble on Pluto.

Imagine for a moment that you did believe this claim. Suppose you say, "There is a Greeble on Pluto." I ask, "Where's the evidence?" You provide none but still insist, "I know there's a Greeble on Pluto." Having no reason to believe that this claim is true, I remain unconvinced; I don't believe it. What sort of "faith" am I exercising?

 

[ranunculus]

The point you keep missing is that, unless you have some firsthand knowledge...you've been to Pluto and have explored every crevice in it...or you have some serious evidence, you cannot know what or who might live on Pluto. As ridiculous as it seems, your stance that no alien named Greeble lives there is based on faith.
Naming the alien doesn't change that.

Not believing something doesn't mean believing the opposite. Why is that hard for you?

He didn't say he believes there are no aliens on Pluto (whose planetary status is irrelevant btw).
You have twisted his words.
Not believing there is an Alien doesn't mean believing there are no aliens. Until you understand that, this discussion is useless.

 

[TheBarrd]

That´s your prerogative.

Well, we agree on that much anyway.

Well, the posts are all here to see. How many people have said that they know gods don´t exist (I think none), that they hold the belief that no gods exist (I think none, maybe one or two), that they hold no belief that gods exists (I think pretty much every self-professing atheist here).
So I don´t know whom you have been talking to.

"I hold no belief that gods exist" means exactly the same thing as "I do not believe that gods exist". There. Is. No. Difference. No matter how many different ways you word it, it means the same thing. Changing the wording doesn't change the meaning at all. I hold no money means exactly the same thing as I don't have any money. I hold no deed to property means exactly the same thing as I don't own any property.
I don't see why you don't get this. You seem fairly intelligent, you speak English...somehow you have gotten the notion from somewhere that saying "I don't hold the belief" makes what you are saying different than "I don't believe"....it doesn't. It means exactly the same thing.
You're putting your faith in the idea that using slightly different words will change the meaning of what you are saying...and it doesn't.
Bottom line...your lack of belief, or your failure to hold a belief, or whatever fancy two step you've added to your semantic antics dance, is based on faith. It is not based on evidence or knowledge...it is faith.
Why you have a problem with that is beyond me.

I never said there was. We have been there before. It´s not the issue. The issue is the difference between holding an belief and not holding a belief.

Which is the same thing as believing or not believing.

Which faith (or faith in what) would that be, that I hold when I don´t hold a belief?

Your faith that whatever it is that you don't hold a belief about is not true...

The irony.

Yes...

Again:
Which faith (or faith in what) would that be, that I hold when I don´t hold a belief?

Saying "I don't hold a belief" is the same thing as saying "I do not believe". No difference.

That´s nice, but not an answer to the question I asked. Do you want me to reword it for you so you understand it better?

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure my answer would be the same. Rainbows. I'd have to throw in some rainbows...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"I hold no belief that gods exist" means exactly the same thing as "I do not believe that gods exist". There. Is. No. Difference. No matter how many different ways you word it, it means the same thing. Changing the wording doesn't change the meaning at all. I hold no money means exactly the same thing as I don't have any money. I hold no deed to property means exactly the same thing as I don't own any property.
I don't see why you don't get this. You seem fairly intelligent, you speak English...somehow you have gotten the notion from somewhere that saying "I don't hold the belief" makes what you are saying different than "I don't believe"....it doesn't. It means exactly the same thing.
You're putting your faith in the idea that using slightly different words will change the meaning of what you are saying...and it doesn't.
Bottom line...your lack of belief, or your failure to hold a belief, or whatever fancy two step you've added to your semantic antics dance, is based on faith. It is not based on evidence or knowledge...it is faith.
Why you have a problem with that is beyond me.

You have yet to demonstrate what sort of "faith" is required to be unconvinced.

 

[quatona]

"I hold no belief that gods exist" means exactly the same thing as "I do not believe that gods exist". There. Is. No. Difference.

Do you even read the posts before you reply?
How often do I have to say that this is agreed upon before you stop feeding this strawman?
Could you possibly reply to the actual difference between holding a belief and not holding a belief?

Your faith that whatever it is that you don't hold a belief about is not true...

I neither hold the belief nor the faith that it´s not true that gods exist.

But, to be honest, I am beginning to lose my patience.
So let´s cut this short.
Please answer the question:
"Do you hold the belief that pink unicorns exist?" without beating around the bush.

 

[ranunculus]

"I hold no belief that gods exist" means exactly the same thing as "I do not believe that gods exist". There. Is. No. Difference.

not being convinced of God's existence doesn't mean being convinced of God's non-existence.

not being convinced someone is guilty doesn't mean you think he's innocent.
not being convinced someone is telling the truth doesn't mean you think he's lying.
not being convinced I have a million dollars doesn't mean you think I don't have a million dollars.
I could go on and on.

 

[TheBarrd]

You have yet to demonstrate what sort of "faith" is required to be unconvinced.

Simple as daylight.
I say I believe in pink unicorns. Or, I "hold a belief" that pink unicorns exist.
My stance is not based on evidence, nor have I ever seen a pink unicorn. I do not know...that is, I hold no knowledge...that unicorns exist.
Therefore, my stance is based on faith.
You say that you do not believe in pink unicorns. Or, you "hold no belief" that pink unicorns exist.
Your stance is not based on evidence, nor do you have any proof that pink unicorns do not exist. You do not know...that is, you hold no knowledge...that unicorns exist.
Therefore, your stance is also based on faith.

It really isn't that complicated.

What I don't understand is why the word "faith" seems to offend you? I'm sure there are lots of things you take on faith, without even realizing it.

 

[Colter]

So Colter... Where's the Tomb at? If there's ONE piece of evidence that would make or break your case. It would be the tomb.

So where's the tomb?

There are several sites of possible tombs of Jesus, one has a church built on top of it.

Are you aware of what ISIS is doing in Northern Iraq, destroying ancient artifacts deemed to be offensive to their religion? Cultures have done this for thousands of years, that's why it's so difficult to substantiate history at times because superstitious people destroy it or don't address it in their records. The Jews tried to eliminate Jesus and then his followers as well as discredit his teachings as Christianity was a small cult inside Judaism for a long time.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Simple as daylight.
I say I believe in pink unicorns. Or, I "hold a belief" that pink unicorns exist.
My stance is not based on evidence, nor have I ever seen a pink unicorn. I do not know...that is, I hold no knowledge...that unicorns exist.
Therefore, my stance is based on faith.
You say that you do not believe in pink unicorns. Or, you "hold no belief" that pink unicorns exist.
Your stance is not based on evidence, nor do you have any proof that pink unicorns do not exist. You do not know...that is, you hold no knowledge...that unicorns exist.
Therefore, your stance is also based on faith.

It really isn't that complicated.

What I don't understand is why the word "faith" seems to offend you? I'm sure there are lots of things you take on faith, without even realizing it.

Let's stick with the Greeble example.

When I say "I don't believe there is a Greeble on Pluto," I am not saying "I believe there is no Greeble on Pluto." In other words, I'm unconvinced that there is a Greeble on Pluto, which is different from being convinced that there is no Greeble on Pluto. What aspect of that requires faith?

Returning to my previous question:

Imagine for a moment that you did believe this claim. Suppose you say, "There is a Greeble on Pluto." I ask, "Where's the evidence?" You provide none but still insist, "I know there's a Greeble on Pluto." Having no reason to believe that this claim is true, I remain unconvinced; I don't believe it. What sort of "faith" am I exercising?

 

[ranunculus]

You say that you do not believe in pink unicorns. Or, you "hold no belief" that pink unicorns exist.
Your stance is not based on evidence, nor do you have any proof that pink unicorns do not exist. You do not know...that is, you hold no knowledge...that unicorns exist.
Therefore, your stance is also based on faith.

It really isn't that complicated.

What I don't understand is why the word "faith" seems to offend you? I'm sure there are lots of things you take on faith, without even realizing it.

Not believing in pink unicorns is not the same as saying there are no pink unicorns.
The first statement required absolutely no faith.

 

[TheBarrd]

Do you even read the posts before you reply?
How often do I have to say that this is agreed upon before you stop feeding this strawman?
Could you possibly reply to the actual difference between holding a belief and not holding a belief?

Do you really need me to tell you the difference?
A person who is holding a belief in pink unicorns believes in pink unicorns.
A person who is not holding a belief in pink unicorns does not believe in pink unicorns.
It really isn't all that complicated.

I neither hold the belief nor the faith that it´s not true that gods exist.

It's way too early in the morning for me to try to unravel that.

But, to be honest, I am beginning to lose my patience.
So let´s cut this short.
Please answer the question:
"Do you hold the belief that pink unicorns exist?" without beating around the bush.

Too early for you, too, I guess...
Do I hold the belief that pink unicorns exist? LOL, well, I never really thought about it seriously before. I suppose if you're going to push me to the wall, however, I'd have to say, yes...I think there is far more possibility for than against pink unicorns.
I have faith....

not being convinced of God's existence doesn't mean being convinced of God's non-existence.

not being convinced someone is guilty doesn't mean you think he's innocent.
not being convinced someone is telling the truth doesn't mean you think he's lying.
not being convinced I have a million dollars doesn't mean you think I don't have a million dollars.
I could go on and on.

 

[TheBarrd]

Do you even read the posts before you reply?
How often do I have to say that this is agreed upon before you stop feeding this strawman?
Could you possibly reply to the actual difference between holding a belief and not holding a belief?

Do you really need me to tell you the difference?
A person who is holding a belief in pink unicorns believes in pink unicorns.
A person who is not holding a belief in pink unicorns does not believe in pink unicorns.
It really isn't all that complicated.

I neither hold the belief nor the faith that it´s not true that gods exist.

It's way too early in the morning for me to try to unravel that.

But, to be honest, I am beginning to lose my patience.
So let´s cut this short.
Please answer the question:
"Do you hold the belief that pink unicorns exist?" without beating around the bush.

Too early for you, too, I guess...
Do I hold the belief that pink unicorns exist? LOL, well, I never really thought about it seriously before. I suppose if you're going to push me to the wall, however, I'd have to say, yes...I think there is far more possibility for than against pink unicorns.
I have faith....

Not believing in pink unicorns is not the same as saying there are no pink unicorns.
The first statement required absolutely no faith.