Why are there religious people?

TheBarrd · May 8, 2015

I, as a Christian, would have one heck of a lot more respect for the gay couple who, upon being told that this is a Christian organization, we can't in good conscience comply with your request, would respond with "I understand Ma'am. We will take our business somewhere else. Have a good day."
Leave me with the feeling that "gay people really aren't such bad folks after all. Maybe I shouldn't have sent them away."

Has no one ever told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Or, as Christians would say:
"A soft answer turneth away wrath."

Think about it.

Cearbhall · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
I, as a Christian, would have one heck of a lot more respect for the gay couple who, upon being told that this is a Christian organization, we can't in good conscience comply with your request, would respond with "I understand Ma'am. We will take our business somewhere else. Have a good day."
Leave me with the feeling that "gay people really aren't such bad folks after all. Maybe I shouldn't have sent them away."

How generous of you. Is this also how you feel about interracial couples who just submit to discrimination instead of raising a fuss? Regardless, this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is the law.

People don't have to earn their rights by acquiring your approval, and they'd much rather have equal rights than your respect. If you can show why they should not be afforded the same rights and legal protections as other couples, such as interracial couples, then you have a valid legal argument for why a business should be allowed to turn them away.

And don't pull the "It's insulting to compare them" line again. The point is that both types of discrimination would have to be allowed in order to provide complete religious freedom, as there are people who oppose both on religious grounds. It's the opposition that makes the two comparable by trying to use the same religious arguments in the political sphere, after all. Whether or not their struggles are equal is irrelevant to this discussion.

bhsmte · May 8, 2015

This isn't really about a wedding cake.

Correct. It is about the state having a compelling interest (which the supreme court has upheld) in seeing that the public, enjoys equal treatment in publically accommodating businesses. The rest, is all window dressing.

It appears, you don't think the public should expect equal treatment in publically accommodating businesses, we get that.

HitchSlap · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
I, as a Christian, would have one heck of a lot more respect for the gay couple who, upon being told that this is a Christian organization, we can't in good conscience comply with your request, would respond with "I understand Ma'am. We will take our business somewhere else. Have a good day."
Leave me with the feeling that "gay people really aren't such bad folks after all. Maybe I shouldn't have sent them away."

Has no one ever told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Or, as Christians would say:
"A soft answer turneth away wrath."

Think about it.

Does is even bother you in the slightest that you're a bigot?

Cearbhall · May 8, 2015

HitchSlap said:
Does is even bother you in the slightest that you're a bigot?

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt and assuming that she was speaking in the hypothetical, from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't want to serve same-sex couples. I'm hoping she's just pointing out that many bigots will fall for insincere politeness and can be won over if you stroke their ego. She's right, as that's the nature of a self-centered bigot, but I disagree that people should be pressured to use this tactic. It's very Uncle Tom.

Belk · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
You know that the bakery is a Christian establishment.

How? It is not like most bakeries have signs showing their religious affiliation.

TheBarrd said:
You know that Christians have a problem with gay.

I know plenty of Christians who have no problem with homosexuality and who feel those who do are incorrect in their theology.

TheBarrd said:
Do you really want THAT particular bakery, and no other will do?

Did blacks really want to sit at the front of the bus or is it possible some wanted to sit in the back but pushed back against the bigotry against them?

TheBarrd said:
Or are you just after the publicity that you know their refusal will generate?
UH....I think you want what is behind door number two. You could care less about the cake. You just want to make your wedding one more opportunity to shove Christian's faces into your....uh...stuff...
Perhaps the bakery should have done the cake...and then, when it came time to deliver it, ooops!!!!! Didn't mean to drop it all over your lovely wedding gowns. Accidents happen...don't worry, we won't charge you for the cake. Please accept our apologies...

I guess it is a good thing you are not bigoted against homosexuals because the idea that they are simply trying out to target and hurt others rather then pushing back against illegal bigotry might come off as a bit of an uncharitable point of view that has no evidence to support it.

TheBarrd said:
I, a member of the public, have too much dang pride to go where I am clearly not wanted.

Tell it to these gentlemen. Obviously they are just there for the publicity and to hurt christians.

TheBarrd · May 8, 2015

HitchSlap said:
Does is even bother you in the slightest that you're a bigot?

Does it bother you that you are?

KCfromNC · May 8, 2015

Colter said:
A belief is belief, lawyerly quibbling aside.

No, you don't get it. Not believing something is not a belief, its what you do believe that is your belief.

OK, so lack of belief in something isn't a religion or a belief. That something can include gods(s), so atheism isn't a religion or a belief. Glad we agree.

KCfromNC · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
You know that the bakery is a Christian establishment. You know that Christians have a problem with gay.

No, a bakery is a secular business. It might be owned by Christians, but that's irrelevant. And there's no universally Christian opinion on anything, so really no way to tell what the view of various employees might be with regards to anything in particular.

HitchSlap · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Does it bother you that you are?

It bothers me greatly when thoughts of bigotry cross my mind. I have made great efforts over the last ten years to correct and "rewire" my prejudicial and bigoted views that were inculcated during my formative years. This really became important for me when I let go my religious fetters, and embraced a more humanistic approach.

KCfromNC · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
And come heck or high water, you're gonna by golly force em even though there are tons of places where you could go and get the service and the respect that you deserve.

Have you ever been refused service at a secular business due to your sexual orientation? It's all well and good to give advice to those who have, but if you haven't actually been hurt by the practice it rings more than a bit hollow.

TheBarrd · May 8, 2015

Belk said:
How? It is not like most bakeries have signs showing their religious affiliation.

Well, if they don't have a sign, then, yes, they should serve homosexuals or anyone else who comes in.

Belk said:
I know plenty of Christians who have no problem with homosexuality and who feel those who do are incorrect in their theology.

I've heard of such, as well. I always wonder if they own a Bible, or if they do, if they've bothered to read it.

Belk said:
Did blacks really want to sit at the front of the bus or is it possible some wanted to sit in the back but pushed back against the bigotry against them?

I was a proponent of equal rights for black people, and I still am, more or less...I'm beginning to worry that we may have to march for equal rights for white people, LOL.
However, I refuse to equate the scuffle going on for gay marriage with the epic struggle of black people from slavery to equal citizens. It is definitely NOT the same thing.

Belk said:
I guess it is a good thing you are not bigoted against homosexuals because the idea that they are simply trying out to target and hurt others rather then pushing back against illegal bigotry might come off as a bit of an uncharitable point of view that has no evidence to support it.

I don't expect people who are not Christians to live under Christian rules. I know some folks do, but it isn't a reasonable expectation. I have every respect for the rights of others to live their lives however they choose. Love whoever you want to love...it is none of my business. Get married if you want to. I honestly do not care. A state issued marriage license is not the same thing as "married in the eyes of God." It never was, and even less so since "no fault divorce".
All I'm asking for is that you respect my right to live under Christian rules. Is that really so much to ask?

Belk said:
Tell it to these gentlemen. Obviously they are just there for the publicity and to hurt christians.

Once again, you are wasting your efforts on me. I will never accept that the struggle for "gay rights" is anywhere near or anything like what the blacks suffered.
You remind me of those Christians who, when they get insulted in chat, wail "PERSECUTION"...trying to equate themselves with those poor Christians in other countries who are seriously suffering for their faith. Just like them, you don't know what REAL persecution is. Having some baker tell you he ain't gonna bake a cake for no gay wedding is hardly persecution.
It's nothing but a diversionary tactic...the ol' "bait and switch".
Sorry...doesn't work on me.

HitchSlap · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Well, if they don't have a sign, then, yes, they should serve homosexuals or anyone else who comes in.

I've heard of such, as well. I always wonder if they own a Bible, or if they do, if they've bothered to read it.

I was a proponent of equal rights for black people, and I still am, more or less...I'm beginning to worry that we may have to march for equal rights for white people, LOL.
However, I refuse to equate the scuffle going on for gay marriage with the epic struggle of black people from slavery to equal citizens. It is definitely NOT the same thing.

I don't expect people who are not Christians to live under Christian rules. I know some folks do, but it isn't a reasonable expectation. I have every respect for the rights of others to live their lives however they choose. Love whoever you want to love...it is none of my business. Get married if you want to. I honestly do not care. A state issued marriage license is not the same thing as "married in the eyes of God." It never was, and even less so since "no fault divorce".
All I'm asking for is that you respect my right to live under Christian rules. Is that really so much to ask?

Once again, you are wasting your efforts on me. I will never accept that the struggle for "gay rights" is anywhere near or anything like what the blacks suffered.
You remind me of those Christians who, when they get insulted in chat, wail "PERSECUTION"...trying to equate themselves with those poor Christians in other countries who are seriously suffering for their faith. Just like them, you don't know what REAL persecution is. Having some baker tell you he ain't gonna bake a cake for no gay wedding is hardly persecution.
It's nothing but a diversionary tactic...the ol' "bait and switch".
Sorry...doesn't work on me.

So you'll only support the plight of homosexuals if they're persecuted enough.

Got it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmWnKIblDZ8

bhsmte · May 8, 2015

I've heard of such, as well. I always wonder if they own a Bible, or if they do, if they've bothered to read it.

Maybe they don't interpret scripture the same way you do. Maybe they see Jesus as someone who would not turn anyone away.

You know, the whole; take the log out of your own eye thing and; he who is without sin should cast the first stone.

It would appear, a lot of Christians forget the above, because it doesn't show up in their behavior.

TheBarrd · May 8, 2015

HitchSlap said:
So you'll only support the plight of homosexuals if their persecuted enough.

Got it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmWnKIblDZ8

You're wasting youtube on me. No speakers.

What "plight" are homosexuals struggling with?
Has anyone tried to crowd you into filthy ghettos? Are there "heterosexual only" restrooms or water fountains? Are there gangs of Christians trying to burn down your homes or meeting places, assuming you have any? Are you being lynched by huge gangs of men dressed up in sheets and hung at some weird ceremony or have you wakened up with a burning cross on your front lawn? Have your children been brutally raped and had their heads shaved by anti-gay gangs? Or have they been forced into inferior schools to try to learn what they can among filthy conditions and out of date, torn textbooks?
NO?????????

Some people don't like you. Gee, what a shame.
Wake me when you are REALLY being persecuted

HitchSlap · May 8, 2015

TheBarrd said:
You're wasting youtube on me. No speakers.

What "plight" are homosexuals struggling with?
Has anyone tried to crowd you into filthy ghettos? Are there "heterosexual only" restrooms or water fountains? Are there gangs of Christians trying to burn down your homes or meeting places, assuming you have any? Are you being lynched by huge gangs of men dressed up in sheets and hung at some weird ceremony or have you wakened up with a burning cross on your front lawn? Have your children been brutally raped and had their heads shaved by anti-gay gangs? Or have they been forced into inferior schools to try to learn what they can among filthy conditions and out of date, torn textbooks?
NO?????????

Some people don't like you. Gee, what a shame.
Wake me when you are REALLY being persecuted

So there's persecution. Then there's real persecution.

How do you distinguish between the two? At what point does it register on your radar.

FireDragon76 · May 8, 2015

I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?

Refusing to bake a cake is not persecution anymore than a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a homophobic message would be persecution. It's just a matter of conscience and decency. I guess now days that's all thrown out the window in the name of rights for "protected groups".

bhsmte · May 8, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?

Give me a break.

It is clear, some Christians want to be able to discriminate in public situations and there are also many, who would not discriminate.

Just be honest enough to call it what it is.

FireDragon76 · May 8, 2015

bhsmte said:
Give me a break.

It is clear, some Christians want to be able to discriminate in public situations and there are also many, who would not discriminate.

Whatever happened to the old saying "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service"? So much for your right to run your business as you see fit... can you say tyranny? Pretty soon the government will be forcing bakers to have quotes of cakes for various groups or they get busted?

bhsmte · May 8, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Whatever happened to the old saying "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service"? So much for your right to run your business as you see fit... can you say tyranny? Pretty soon the government will be forcing bakers to have quotes of cakes for various groups or they get busted?

Want to go back to the old days I see, when rampant discrimination was allowed. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

You see, as long as you run your business according to the law and treat the public equally (in the business you voluntarily opened to the public), you can run it anyway you want.

If you find this simple desire that states have found a compelling interest and the supreme court has held up as constitutional as tyranny, no one is stopping you or anyone else from legally challenging the laws.

Why are there religious people?

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs

Well-Known Member

Newbie

PROUDLY PRIMATE

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs

Regular Member

Regular Member

PROUDLY PRIMATE

Regular Member

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs

PROUDLY PRIMATE

Newbie

Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs

PROUDLY PRIMATE

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency